The Red Queen Effect and Superhumans

[Epiphanis]

"Now, here, you see, it takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place. If you want to get somewhere else, you must run at least twice as fast as that!"

-- The Red Queen, in Through the Looking-Glass and what Alice Found There, by Lewis Carroll.

 

 

The "Red Queen Effect" is a term some biologists apply to what is sometimes also referred to as the "evolutionary arms race." Basically, in a closed ecosystem every species must continually evolve to remain competitive with every other evolving species that could prey upon it or deprive it of necessary resources, such as food. Once one species evolves an advantage, every other competing species begins to die off, with the survivors being those specimens with traits that can counteract the competitor species' advantage. These survivors pass on those traits, which become the new norm, evolving their species as a whole. If the advantage becomes too great for the stragglers to catch up with, the stragglers inevitably become extinct.

 

 

Obviously, the Red Queen Effect goes right to the core of the premise of the X-Men comic books, and it rather strongly suggests that Charles Xavier's dream of peaceful coexistence between mutants and "normal" humans is ... more than a little unrealistic. The Red Queen tends to support Magneto's perspective during his more genocidal periods, as well as those of the normal human adversaries who wish to exterminate mutants.

 

 

This really isn't a question of whether normal humans would be forced to bow down and serve superior mutant overlords. Homo sapiens would be lucky to get off that easily! No, the real question is how long unevolved humans could possibly survive in an ecosystem that has already given rise to superhumans.

 

 

You see, even if mutants sincerely wish to get along with their less-evolved forebears, that wish is kind of irrelevant. The advantages evolution have conveyed upon them are huge compared not only to ordinary humans, but every other species that currently competes with humans. Even if the mutants bend over backwards to protect normal humans, their very existence will prompt competitor species to evolve in response to keep up with them. Humans, and their more evolved mutant brethren, remain in competition with numerous other species, particularly those that themselves evolve quickly -- i.e., reproduce a lot and have short generations, like viruses, bacteria, and most of the species we characterize as "pests" or "vermin." The biggest short-term threat to normal humans would probably come from diseases, and even if they survived those they would eventually have to contend with super ticks, tapeworms, cockroaches, rats, etc.

 

 

Once super-powered mutants appear, particularly those with improved biological defenses, simply by their presence they will present a threat to normal humans. Look at Wolverine, Colossus, the White Queen, Sabretooth, Apocalypse, or Mr. Sinister. Each of these possess mutations tat would pretty much make them immune to the ordinary diseases we are familiar with. Regardless of whether they are "good" or "evil," they continue to be (for the most part) biological organisms that consume and concentrate the resources other biological organisms need to survive.

 

 

Eventually, some mutant disease strain will evolve that will be able to infect some or all of these mutants and co-opt all the lovely resources present in their bodies. This strain of super-disease would be rewarded with a bonanza of previously-unexploited resources that would cause them to propagate like mad. And then they would almost certainly spread to the easier targets provided by normal humans, who would be even less able to resist them than the 90%+ of the Native American population of the American Eastern seaboard that died off from smallpox after first contact with Europeans in the 16th Century.

 

 

The diversity of Marvel's super-mutations would slow this process somewhat. For instance, a strain of influenza that evolved to counteract Kitty Pryde's unique phasing ability might not have an advantage that would be all that relevant to infecting normal humans. But one that could circumvent Wolverine's "healing factor"? A virus that could give Logan the sniffles would probably annihilate most of the human race. Worse still, Logan has extreme longevity -- the longer he is around, the greater the chance becomes that some strain will eventually develop to counteract his specific advantage. Each mutant with similar abilities--X-23, Sabretooth, Mr. Sinister, Apocalypse, etc.-- multiplies that probability further.

 

 

So, even if Professor X's dream comes true and Homo Superior and "normal" humans cooperate with each other to fight against common enemies, this will ultimately just delay the inevitable. The ecosystem will produce more and more organisms adapted to compete with the Homo Superiors, and an ever-increasing percentage of the unevolved Homo Sapiens population simply won't be able to keep up with those threats and will die out. Even with superhumans protecting them, anything less than a 100% success rate will ultimately mean that the normal-human "herd" will be culled and inevitably evolve on its own. The only real question is how quickly this process will advance.

[McCoy]

Re: The Red Queen Effect and Superhumans

 

As the quote at the begining of the movie says, a willingness to share the planet is not a defining characteristic of humanity. In Real Life there is one and only one living species in genus Homo.

 

On Earth 616 there are six species of genus Homo, or more likely six subspecies of H. sapiens as I believe they have all proven cross-fertile with H. sapiens sapiens; Atlantians, Deviants, Eternals, Inhumans, and Mutants.

 

So on Earth 616 super powers have been part of the environment as long as anatomically modern humans. But obviously the other subspecies have not bred as quickly as H. sapiens sapiens. For example, every Inhuman alive lives in a single city. For various reasons, I believe the non-mainstream humans number in the millions, and that all of them together never had more than 10% the ecological footprint of H. sapiens sapiens.

 

There is also the question of if mutants are a separate subspecies, or if in mutants the X-factor has been expressed, while in mainstream humans it remains latent. Look at Moondragon. She has telepathy, telekinesis, and levitation without being a mutant. The line between mutant and mainstream human seems to vary with the sensitivity of the mutant-detector in use.

 

In addition to all that, both in rel life and presumably on Earth 616 H. sapiens sapiens seems to be causing an extinction event on the magnitude of those more usually associated with a comet impacting the planet. Some species are keeping up (roaches, the common cold), others are becoming extinct (sabertooth tigers, smallpox).

[Lord Liaden]

Re: The Red Queen Effect and Superhumans

 

In addition to numbers, Homo Sapiens also have technology to fall back on. Humanity is one of the few species on the planet that, rather than being changed by our environment to better adapt to it, changes the environment to suit ourselves. In the face of our evolving technological capabilities, genetic evolution is no longer necessarily paramount.

 

Even superpowers that are greatly superior to the innate abilities of normal humans, are rarely more powerful than the weapons normals can bring to bear, particularly in a comic-book setting.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: The Red Queen Effect and Superhumans

 

In the 'Wolverine Sniffles' issue, it is presumed that virii and/or bacteria are 'out to get him' - so to speak. This isn't true; virii and bacteria are simply out to survive and replicate, and that on a macroscopic level. In that particular case, it is easier to consider the 'Healing Factor' as being a competing supervirus or -bacteria - one which actively preys on other virii and bacteria. If a normal virus escapes the Healing Factor, then you'd consider it lucky - but it isn't likely to do so in any case. Yes, diseases have been created which specifically target the mutant genome - but they went specifically after that X-factor, and left normal humans alone because that genome was either unexpressed or nonexistent.

 

In regards to the superhumans in general, the question becomes whether or not the related species are a) capable of interbreeding (which they are), and capable of completely eliminating the other species - total annihilation - which, again, they are. One also needs to wonder whether or not the genetic complex being expressed is innate, inherent, or evolved. If it's innate, then it's there, but unexpressed - and the best way for mutants to wipe out all humans is to get their X-gene to express. If it's inherent, then it requires x' to meet with x' to create X' - a recessive that's been around for a long, long time, that not everyone actually has the potential to express, but that virtually everyone carries. In both these cases, humanity can never win completely - mutants will always be popping up, either because circumstances force their gene to express, or because two recessives combined to make an active (X') 'mutant complex'. In the third case, humans could possibly win - because it's an evolutionary response to something or another, and if you manage to cull all that out, you can remove that entire 'line' of possibile evolution; a dead end.

 

Understand, however, that so long as humanity outnumbers mutants by a significant amount, all the rest of your critters from virii to bacteria and up, will be still trying to adapt to humans. And, with the flu season right around the corner, mostly succeeding, at least enough to survive until their next generational go-round. It's when you have a very large population that the wee nasties get to adapting to People With Powers. Genosha in particular would have been the breeding-ground for natural super-virii that could have wiped out baseline humanity. Stuff like this - and because 'small numbers' has always made for a more compelling story for the line - is quite possibly one additional reason why Marvel wiped out the 50 million mutants that existed...

[psyber624]

Re: The Red Queen Effect and Superhumans

 

I think there are a few other factors that have to be taken into consideration here if you are going to try and look at this as a real world example.

 

First of all the presence of "mutants" such as the X-Men represent an unprecedented evolutionary leap that has not been previously encountered, so it is difficult to predict how our ecosystem would adapt to it. Also, the sheer diversity presented by that leap would lead to difficulty in survivability for form of virus/bacteria that did evolve. There is no guarantee that a virus that evolved to be able to affect Wolverine would have any effect at all on a normal human being. You also have to add in the factors mentioned by Lord Liaden. Humanity is no longer totally under the sway of nature's edicts. With technology and research it is entirely possible that both the virus/bacteria vectors and the mutant vectors could be subdued or eliminated prior to our extinction.

 

Of course, there is a philosophical point that hasn't been brought up yet in this discussion. While it is rarely brought up in the comics, the mutant powers are a distinct ADVANTAGE over normals, therefore given the current norms in human psyche it is more likely that instead of trying to eliminate the mutant genome, the rest of humanity will attempt to find ways to join the mutant population. Through DNA manipulation, gene therapy, or even breeding (mutants would suddenly become REALLY popular with the ladies, so to speak, and vice versa). This could be seen as eventually leading to the "extinction" of homo sapiens sapiens, but in reality is more like a species wide evolution into homo sapiens superior.

[Epiphanis]

Re: The Red Queen Effect and Superhumans

 

Humanity is one of the few species on the planet that' date=' rather than being changed by our environment to better adapt to it, changes the environment to suit ourselves.[/quote']

 

Actually, thats kind of a myth that American education perpetuates but is kind of clearly untrue if you think about it. Almost every species changes their environment to better suit their needs in some way; the most obvious example being any creature that builds a nest. Conversely, like most other species humans do biologically adapt to their environment in a variety of ways; for instance, your metabolism slows or accelerates to better adjust to changes in temperature.

 

Toolmaking is indeed a powerful advantage, but it probably just "ups the ante" for the Red Queen Effect rather than nullifying its effects on us. The thought that our ability to develop new technologies permanently places us beyond the negative effects is probably untrue. It assumes that new technologies will always become available at a rate that sufficiently outstrips evolution. That might be true in the short run, but consider: technological development does not occur uniformly throughout society over time; sometimes it even reverses itself, resulting in "dark ages" and lost knowledge dependent on variables in society. By contrast, evolution's currently slower-paced trial-and-error approach is pretty consistent and automatic; the rate of new mutations can vary but never be entirely eliminated. It is entirely possible that there are physical limitations to how much technology can accomplish; it is almost certainly true that there will be problems that will take us many generations of coordinated research to ultimately solve, and society itself cannot be completely depended upon to maintain the progressive conditions it would take to resolve them over such periods of time. I think that technology is just part of the evolutionary process, but if you look at it as an opposed force, the result is kind of a tortoise-and-hare race where technology is the hare. And, in the end, the most complex artifact ever designed by humans is many orders of magnitude less sophisticated and complex than a single-cell organism. We are nowhere near being able to build an amoeba from its component chemicals, but evolution can and has.

[Epiphanis]

Re: The Red Queen Effect and Superhumans

 

In the 'Wolverine Sniffles' issue' date=' it is presumed that virii and/or bacteria are 'out to get him' - so to speak. [/quote']

 

Not exactly. They are out to exploit him, in their own way. Which is part of why I said giving him sniffles rather than killing him. We don't really know how or why Wolverine's "healing factor" would work in real-world terms assuming such is possible at all (almost certainly not), but the writers sort of suggest it is a biological effect, essentially like normal human healing cranked up to ridiculous levels with traits of starfish-like regeneration thrown in. Its a pretty safe bet than any organism that could handle hold its own against the healing factor would annihilate a less sophisticated immune system. Our best chance of survival would be if the process to adapt to the healing factor renquired such a degree of specialization in the disease that ordinary humans wouldn't register as potential hosts at all.

 

Also, I don't follow your second paragraph. I'm not positing a direct homo superior-vs.-homo sapien conflict. I'm saying that the impact of a significant presence of superhuman mutants would prompt an increase in the lethality of the ecosystem to the point that humans would die out from conflict with other species.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: The Red Queen Effect and Superhumans

 

Actually' date=' thats kind of a myth that American education perpetuates but is kind of clearly untrue if you think about it. Almost every species changes their environment to better suit their needs in some way; the most obvious example being any creature that builds a nest. Conversely, like most other species humans do biologically adapt to their environment in a variety of ways; for instance, your metabolism slows or accelerates to better adjust to changes in temperature.[/quote']

 

I take your point, but again, few species deliberately modify their environment beyond an extremely localized construction. Social insects, accounting for the difference in scale, are probably our closest competitors in this regard. Nonetheless, we can and have altered vast swaths of the landscape to make it suitable for habitation, food production, or exploitation of its resources; produced huge collections of artificial structures which effectively turn winter into summer, night into day; and almost certainly contribute to an unprecedentedly rapid change in the climate of the entire planet.

 

The philosophical difference in our approach was summarized by an evolutionary biologist I once read whose name escapes me at the moment: in cold weather, most other mammals will grow more fur. Humans will take the fur off another mammal and put it on ourselves.

[clsage]

Re: The Red Queen Effect and Superhumans

 

There was a second season episode of STNG that obliquely addressed this point. In the episode, researchers tweaked the genes of some children so that their immune systems would be, in a word: predatory. They would seek out any potential infection and eradicate it, even at a distance. The immunity effects expanded their purview and caused the 'normals' around them to die.....Now, it might be possible to view Wolverines immunity/healing factor in a similar manner. If we work from that hypothesis and then, using comic book logic, let us suppose his healing factor became 'airborne'.....

 

Thoughts?

 

-Carl-

[Greywind]

Re: The Red Queen Effect and Superhumans

 

Arguably, they did it in Ultimate X-Men. Wolverine due to his regen was immune to the other character's recent empowering. Gave the kid a beer. Had a little chit-chat. After that Wolverine ganked him.

[bluesguy]

Re: The Red Queen Effect and Superhumans

 

There was a second season episode of STNG that obliquely addressed this point. In the episode' date=' researchers tweaked the genes of some children so that their immune systems would be, in a word: predatory. They would seek out any potential infection and eradicate it, even at a distance. The immunity effects expanded their purview and caused the 'normals' around them to die..... 'airborne'.....[/quote']

 

How about a real world example. The cancer which is wiping out Tasmanian devils is in fact an aggressive cancer that spreads from animal to animal. If your friend has skin cancer and you give them a hug you are not going to get skin cancer. Of course part of the reason this cancer is spreading among the devils is because they bite each other on the face. The other problem is that the genetic diversity of Tasmanian devils is very very low. What the researchers have found is that everyone of the tumors on the different devils has the exact same genetic markers. That also doesn't happen.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: The Red Queen Effect and Superhumans

 

Given all the massive scientific improbabilities and impossibilities that underlie the superhero genre, this particular effect doesn't have to be an issue unless you want it to be.

[Epiphanis]

Re: The Red Queen Effect and Superhumans

 

Given all the massive scientific improbabilities and impossibilities that underlie the superhero genre' date=' this particular effect doesn't have to be an issue unless you want it to be.[/quote']

 

Extremely true. But I used to think that many comic books', but particularly the X-Men's, presentation of antagonism between humans and superhumans was silly and unrealistic. Turns out the no-coexistence trope might be one of the more realistic and scientifically justified aspects after all.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: The Red Queen Effect and Superhumans

 

Certainly any rabid anti-mutant group in one's campaign, such as Genocide or the IHA from Hero Games's published settings, would use this precept as a justication for their need to deal with the "mutant threat."

 

However, I would like to offer a counter-example. The percentage of people in our society born with disadvantageous genetic traits -- from myopia to diabetes to malformed limbs -- is actually on the increase. The pressure of natural selection should be weeding these traits out, but our medical technology has compensated for them to the extent that such people can live relatively normal and productive lives... including the opportunity to pass their genes on to succeeding generations.

 

We as a civilization have made conscious decisions to provide the means for people who in the past would have been marginalized, or suffered an early death, due to physical drawbacks, to achieve their full potential and contribute to society. Natural selection is no longer the only evolutionary imperative at work.

 

Now, even assuming that an emerging homo superior is both so numerous and so genetically uniform as to prompt the emergence of "super-diseases" which are more deadly to normal humans than they are to mutants -- and that's a big assumption -- comic book worlds are full of super-geniuses who routinely find cures for such things.

[Clonus]

Re: The Red Queen Effect and Superhumans

 

Of course that assumes that firstly, mutants in general are in fact all that much tougher a meal than for a germ than any other biological organism, and secondly that those mutants who do have super-immune system like Wolverine, let any bugs escape un-murderized in the first place. Even if they did, Wolverine is nearly unique. There aren't enough people with his regeneration power to create an infection reservoir. If he becomes host to a super-bug, said bug would have to be so virulent that it would nearly instantly kill any normal person it comes into contact with, and oddly enough a bug that deadly is harmless on the species level, because it doesn't leave its host alive long enough to spread it. So no, I'm not real worried.

[Bolon]

Re: The Red Queen Effect and Superhumans

 

"However, I would like to offer a counter-example. The percentage of people in our society born with disadvantageous genetic traits -- from myopia to diabetes to malformed limbs -- is actually on the increase. The pressure of natural selection should be weeding these traits out, but our medical technology has compensated for them to the extent that such people can live relatively normal and productive lives... including the opportunity to pass their genes on to succeeding generations."

 

I would like to comment on the fact that it is not necessarily a disadvantageous genetic trait but in the case of my own version of diabetes, it comes from an advantage that is no longer needed. Larger men or warriors had the ability to store energy in their livers for times of hardship. With modern living, we don't have times of hardship but just need to reduce our dietary intake to avoid overweight. That advantage of 300 years ago is now a disadvantage as it continues to feed extra blood sugar that is not needed and creates my type of diabetes. Those large football players and athletes don't live as long due to all the advantages that they don't really need anymore. For me, my current medication is focused more on shutting down my liver and extra blood sugar production as it is in improving my insulin production and usage.

 

Why would some organisms like the virii and bacteria need to evolve when there are still a large target available? The Europeans and First Nations examples presents virii and bacteria in an environment without natural predators much like the current issues with rabbits and other animals in Australia that are destroying the native animals. The Red Queen effect would take effect if and when there is a need to evolve or die. There are enough normal humans in the Marvel world so that is not required yet. In a world where superhumans or mutants increased to create a threat, there would be a need to evolve. Those universes can have events as coincidence might cause but it is not needed in the system. It is an interesting viewpoint. To further this viewpoint though, look at the number of different huminoids from our own history that are now discovered and how it took hundreds of thousands of years for them to become homo sapiens as we know them as the only one left. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Early_species_of_Homo

[bigbywolfe]

Re: The Red Queen Effect and Superhumans

 

Remember that not all mutants in the Marvel Universe have useful mutations. There's the crime boss Bishop dealt with whose mutant power was an uncontrolled "defense mechanism" that made him smell terrible. Would be great for a small animal, not so much for someone in human society. Then several examples of individuals who literally blow themselves up unintentionally, at least one who died because of the condition. The woman who extrudes slime to form a cocoon when she goes to sleep. Well, you get the point. Then there are the hundreds or thousands of mutants whose powers are good for nothing but combat or demolition. If war breaks out between mutants and humans that is a definite advantage, but if there is any kind of peace in place it's virtually useless unless they become super heroes/villains.