Bows, Brace, and DCV

[bigbywolfe]

Many of the muscle powered ranged weapons such as bows and slings are built with Concentration (1/2 DCV) Limitation. Now the maneuver Brace is a 0 phase action that give +2 versus ranged penalties at the cost of halving your DCV. If I am remembering correctly the halving penalties do not stack. Would that mean you could always Brace while using a bow with no real penalty as you are already at 1/2 DCV or would you not allow Brace with such weapons as there is no real down side? Has this been covered and I'm just revealing my horrible memory?

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Bows, Brace, and DCV

 

Doesn't brace also require a free hand or at least something to brace against?

[Greywind]

Re: Bows, Brace, and DCV

 

Can't you brace with just your leg muscles?

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Bows, Brace, and DCV

 

Pretty sure the rules say nothing about requiring a free hand. If that was the case then you couldn't Brace with rifles, well really any gun other than pistols. That wouldn't really make much sense.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Bows, Brace, and DCV

 

Your interpretation of the rules as written is correct. Strictly speaking, there is no downside to just Bracing whenever you use a bow (unless the GM allows defensive firing as discussed in FH/HSEG).

 

If that bothers a group, possible reasonable GM rulings might be that Bracing with a bow takes a 1/2 Phase (so you couldn't nock an arrow, Brace, and fire all in the same Phase), that you can't Brace with a bow unless you begin a Phase with an arrow already nocked, or even that Brace simply has no effect with bows.

 

In fact, a good general "house rule" (again, assuming you feel you need one) might be that you can't voluntarily do more than one thing at a time that halves your DCV. So for example, you couldn't Brace and Multiple Attack, or Multiple Attack with a bow as one of the attacks, and so on.

[Ndreare]

Re: Bows, Brace, and DCV

 

The rules as written make sense, having fired a bow, I am much more comfortable with my legs spread about shoulders width apart and in a Z shape similar to the forward stance I learned in Karate. That is effectively a brace. It fits with real life in my opinion (definitely not humble) and general genre expectations.

 

 

However in many games we play in in our group bows are built without concentration, because that goes against general genre expectation.

[psyber624]

Re: Bows, Brace, and DCV

 

I think Derek's approach is best because otherwise you have issues with people who build bows WITHOUT the 1/2 DCV concentration limitation. Or you can allow both abilities as normal +2 OCV, to offset the range penalty only, seems rather appropriate to me when using a bow. Yes you have to concentrate to use it, but the +2 OCV could easily be seen as a "side benefit" of that concentration. (This may be seen by some as a limitation that actually provides a benefit, in this case possibly reducing the concentration penalty on bows to -1/4 might be a solution.)

[Ndreare]

Re: Bows, Brace, and DCV

 

I think Derek's approach is best because otherwise you have issues with people who build bows WITHOUT the 1/2 DCV concentration limitation. Or you can allow both abilities as normal +2 OCV' date=' to offset the range penalty only, seems rather appropriate to me when using a bow. Yes you have to concentrate to use it, but the +2 OCV could easily be seen as a "side benefit" of that concentration. (This may be seen by some as a limitation that actually provides a benefit, in this case possibly reducing the concentration penalty on bows to -1/4 might be a solution.)[/quote']

 

Which option of what Derek H said do you agree with, he had three opposing options?

1: He stated the rules are clear and the combination is acceptable.

2: House rule X

3: house rule Y

[psyber624]

Re: Bows, Brace, and DCV

 

I meant the

a good general "house rule" (again, assuming you feel you need one) might be that you can't voluntarily do more than one thing at a time that halves your DCV.

 

It takes care of this situation, prevents conflicts for players who build bows without the limitation, and applies to a number of other situations as well.

 

I do wonder what the ramifications of changing it slightly to be "You can't voluntarily do something that would halve your DCV if it is already halved" would be. Basically the maneuvers you might want to do are not possible if you are at 1/2 DCV for any reason. With Derek's if you have some involuntary 1/2's then you can still do 1 voluntary 1/2 DCV maneuver. (The rules lawyer in me also questions what all constitutes voluntary, specifically does choosing "not standing up" from being prone constitute voluntarily reducing your DCV to 1/2?) Or is that what his means? (not really sure).

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Bows, Brace, and DCV

 

I do wonder what the ramifications of changing it slightly to be "You can't voluntarily do something that would halve your DCV if it is already halved" would be.

 

Actually, I like that wording better.

 

Though honestly, I haven't found this issue (stacking of DCV halving) to be a problem needing a solution in my own games. I personally just use the R.A.W. in this area.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Bows, Brace, and DCV

 

Or I suppose another option is just to ignore the "your DCV can only be halved once" bit, and allow it to continue reducing to 1/4 DCV, 1/8 DCV, and so on...

[Ndreare]

Re: Bows, Brace, and DCV

 

Or I suppose another option is just to ignore the "your DCV can only be halved once" bit' date=' and allow it to continue reducing to 1/4 DCV, 1/8 DCV, and so on...[/quote']

 

Personally I find once your DCV is halved it is a guarantee you will be hit.

[Greywind]

Re: Bows, Brace, and DCV

 

...use more cover.

[psyber624]

Re: Bows, Brace, and DCV

 

Personally I find once your DCV is halved it is a guarantee you will be hit.

 

I guess it depends on the power level your playing at, but your probably right (one of the reasons Knockback rules have me very worried right now). Of course I could see some "super dodgy" MA types still having decent DCV when halved vs mooks in a standard game, but that is definitely a corner case.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Bows, Brace, and DCV

 

Personally I find once your DCV is halved it is a guarantee you will be hit.

Well, if you are intentionally halving your DCV to fire a bow I doubt you are in HtH range. Assuming a OCV/DCV of 7 and mook guards with OCV/DCVs of 4, you could very well be better off putting your CSL in Ranged Combat on your DCV even if you only get a +1 for every 2 used.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Bows, Brace, and DCV

 

Almost forgot, Derek thank for the quick response.

Everyone else, thanks for keeping the conversation going in my absence.

 

Out of curiosity, who all uses Bows as written and who removes Concentration from them? What style of game do you usually play?

[Ndreare]

Re: Bows, Brace, and DCV

 

Almost forgot, Derek thank for the quick response.

Everyone else, thanks for keeping the conversation going in my absence.

 

Out of curiosity, who all uses Bows as written and who removes Concentration from them? What style of game do you usually play?

 

As a default most dedicated archers tend to build bows without concentration when we play. Someone just picking up a bow as a secondary weapon would be reduced by 1/2.

 

(Again I would say our group archers generally do not have the concentration limitation, after all that would have sucked for Legolas)

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Bows, Brace, and DCV

 

As a default most dedicated archers tend to build bows without concentration when we play. Someone just picking up a bow as a secondary weapon would be reduced by 1/2.

 

(Again I would say our group archers generally do not have the concentration limitation, after all that would have sucked for Legolas)

That seems odd to me. Are bows not free equipment in your games that are generally built the same/similarly (unless of course you are paying character points for a special one)? It seems odd that they would work differently for different people.

[Greywind]

Re: Bows, Brace, and DCV

 

Naked Advantage on the character to remove those hassles.

[psyber624]

Re: Bows, Brace, and DCV

 

While I can see in a real world situation why you would say you needed 1/2 DCV concentration to fire a bow, almost no examples in Heroic fiction illustrate that. Most archery heroes are depicted as being able to fire arrows almost constantly, while running, riding a horse, or even back flipping through the air on occasion. Yeah, your standard rank and file archers in medieval times could definitely be seen as requiring it, but even most low powered games are generally depicted with a heroic flair. So unless I was for some reason running some sort of "gritty realism" campaign I would personally probably ignore the requirement.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Bows, Brace, and DCV

 

While I can see in a real world situation why you would say you needed 1/2 DCV concentration to fire a bow' date=' almost no examples in Heroic fiction illustrate that. Most archery heroes are depicted as being able to fire arrows almost constantly, while running, riding a horse, or even back flipping through the air on occasion. Yeah, your standard rank and file archers in medieval times could definitely be seen as requiring it, but even most low powered games are generally depicted with a heroic flair. So unless I was for some reason running some sort of "gritty realism" campaign I would personally probably ignore the requirement.[/quote']

 

A good point - and easily implemented by simply removing the "Concentration" limitation from equipment one does not pay points for anyway. If we want more complexity, perhaps one requires the WF (or some number of skill levels) or the Concentration limitation remains. That would differentiate the skilled user from Joe Peasant.

[bluesguy]

Re: Bows, Brace, and DCV

 

One of the characters in my campaign is a master archer. The 1/2 DCV issue rarely comes up because she often fires from cover or is very far away from the HtH combat (lots of penalty skill levels w/ range). The very rare times someone has shot back at her character they have missed by a mile. She also bought Archery Tricks and I think if it was an issue I would just have her try to make an Archery Tricks roll to remove the 1/2 DCV penalty.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Bows, Brace, and DCV

 

We have always required Braced to take half a phase, which in most cases isn't a problem, but it can't be done on horseback or similar situations.

 

In my games if you want a master archer that doesn't have a DCV penalty, you buy something like:

 

Master Archer: 2d6 RKA OAF - Bow & arrows (-1), Two-handed Weapon (-½), Damage limited by max damage of available bow (-¼).

 

For an even more impressive archer the RKA might be bought higher to represent a Deadly Accuracy talent and the damage limit removed, or even added Autofire to represent the trick of firing multiple arrows with one pull.

[Kirby]

Re: Bows, Brace, and DCV

 

Many of the muscle powered ranged weapons such as bows and slings are built with Concentration (1/2 DCV) Limitation. Now the maneuver Brace is a 0 phase action that give +2 versus ranged penalties at the cost of halving your DCV. If I am remembering correctly the halving penalties do not stack. Would that mean you could always Brace while using a bow with no real penalty as you are already at 1/2 DCV or would you not allow Brace with such weapons as there is no real down side? Has this been covered and I'm just revealing my horrible memory?

Or I suppose another option is just to ignore the "your DCV can only be halved once" bit' date=' and allow it to continue reducing to 1/4 DCV, 1/8 DCV, and so on...[/quote']

Not that I've needed to use the rule much (and definitely not recently), but back in 4E, I think we treated it at 1/2 your (full) calculated DCV. So, if someone had a ranged attack that was Bulky, putting them at 1/2 DCV, then used something like Concentration or Braced, we had that put them at 0 DCV. Although, it's been over 10 years since I can last recall doing that, so maybe we did do 1/2, 1/4, etc.

[Kirby]

Re: Bows, Brace, and DCV

 

Many of the muscle powered ranged weapons such as bows and slings are built with Concentration (1/2 DCV) Limitation.

Is this for Fantasy HERO' date=' a 6E rule or something else (player preference)? I ask because I don't see characters such as Hawkeye or Green Arrow using [i']Concentration[/i], personally.