Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

[assault]

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

 

A few months ago, I soloed upgraded versions of my Justice Society builds through Wrath of the Seven Horsemen. This was the late Golden Age lineup - Wonder Woman, the Flash, Green Lantern, Hawkman (and Hawkgirl, upgraded to full membership), the Atom, Black Canary and Dr Mid-Nite.

 

I had most of them on 600 points, except for Wonder Woman, who was on 700. Black Canary and Dr Mid-Nite had lots of points to spare.

 

They were able to handle the scenario, once I worked out the correct tactics to use. Initially they got beaten to a pulp, which is genre-appropriate. The biggest issue was that half the team were essentially non-powered Mystery Man types, who were horribly vulnerable to Killing Attacks.

 

Their starting point versions would have been toast in the scenario, barring serious depowering of the bad guys.

 

My point is that while it is possible to build near-enough JLA equivalents on starting points, it's not hard for them to get stomped by no-name opponents. (Come to think of it, most of the "real" JLA's opponents are pretty no-name anyway...)

 

One thing that strikes me as particularly important is to get the relative power levels right. I don't necessarily mean theoretical "Superman beats everyone" power levels, but the power levels actually shown in the source material (whatever subset of the source material you choose).

 

A mistake that is sometimes made is to try to apply Normal Characteristic Maxima to characters like Batman. The problem with it is that it is not consistently applied. Batman is actually one of the faster and stronger members of the JLA - certainly at the top end of those that don't have those attributes specifically included as part of their superpowers. Mechanically, however, the application of NCM will ensure that Batman ends up at the bottom of the heap. I very strongly suggest avoiding this.

[Sammael]

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

 

One of the reasons for Power Limitations is not only to simulate superhuman powers such as those that come from being an alien, but also for play balance. Superman, for example, could have a power limitation "Does Not Work During Red Solar Radiation Exposure (-1/4)" on his powers. That means he gets more points to build his powers, but will lose them from time to time, as he often does in the comics. I don't see why The Man of Steel or any character has to be build on more then 350 Points, or even 250 Points (my personal choice) if all other major characters are built at the same level. To build a Hero on an excessive amount of points means that their powers will be shut down half the time and the entire universe would be after them, and their psychological limitations will prevent them from making any common sense decisions.

 

Further a lot of extra points are spent on "stunts". These are powers or skills that the Hero has used once or twice in a specific comic. Even George Reeve's Superman passed through a wall once on the show, but the Man of Steel doesn't have Desolid normally. This is what VPP, Power skills, and Cramming are for.

 

Not necessarily. With the higher point builds you assume a certain amount of experience on the character' date=' which allows you a lot more leeway in building.[/quote']

 

Hey, Cassandra, you make some good points that I needed to read. I'm not used to the Champions style of character building. I'm so much more used to a la cart class-based and skill-based character generation systems. I've got to make sure I remember there is more than one way to do pretty much anything in Champions. What I'm looking for, and part of my attraction to the JLA (apart from simply enjoying them), is the higher experience level that Greywind talks about. I want my players to feel like they have genuine bad-asses to play with. One of my problems, at the moment, is that I really don't know how many points I need to make them. I originally thought I would need 650 points, which would presumably work, but I've been persuaded that I can do it with far fewer points and accompanying headaches. So I'll try less. I'm thinking really hard about the Standard 400 point superhero. Of course, this puts me right in line with the point you made!

 

"I love it when a plan comes together."

[Sammael]

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

 

Re: My version of Superman and the rest of the JLA

 

Certain assumptions had to be made to get all the characters in on the same points (350/5er or 400/6e). With Superman, it was that he pretty much starts out with all of his powers at the start of his superhero career. He might increase his skill with using them with XP (ex: buy off some of limitations on senses) but his basic power level starts really high. It's skills (both combat and non-combat) that he is deficient to begin with. Think the first season of Superman: The Animated Series. Batman when used in a full superhero setting with the JLA comes from the opposite direction. He's like a "what if" an experienced Dark Champion's (street hero) character graduated to the big leagues. So he's practically maxed out on skills from a street level setting perspective but will end up spending most of his future XP on more KS skills and Perks like bases and contacts. If either is to be used as more faithful to JLA continuity NPC's then it makes perfect sense to throw more points towards the builds. However, if they are to be used as player characters then I think they all work on the budget presented.

 

All player-characters are original designs and homegrown. We'll fight evil with the DC Superheroes, not as them.

 

Nice to have the behind-the-scenes too. Thanks.

[Sammael]

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

 

A few months ago' date=' I soloed upgraded versions of my Justice Society builds through Wrath of the Seven Horsemen. This was the late Golden Age lineup - Wonder Woman, the Flash, Green Lantern, Hawkman (and Hawkgirl, upgraded to full membership), the Atom, Black Canary and Dr Mid-Nite.

 

I had most of them on 600 points, except for Wonder Woman, who was on 700. Black Canary and Dr Mid-Nite had lots of points to spare.

 

They were able to handle the scenario, once I worked out the correct tactics to use. Initially they got beaten to a pulp, which is genre-appropriate. The biggest issue was that half the team were essentially non-powered Mystery Man types, who were horribly vulnerable to Killing Attacks.

 

Their starting point versions would have been toast in the scenario, barring serious depowering of the bad guys.

 

My point is that while it is possible to build near-enough JLA equivalents on starting points, it's not hard for them to get stomped by no-name opponents. (Come to think of it, most of the "real" JLA's opponents are pretty no-name anyway...)

 

One thing that strikes me as particularly important is to get the relative power levels right. I don't necessarily mean theoretical "Superman beats everyone" power levels, but the power levels actually shown in the source material (whatever subset of the source material you choose).

 

A mistake that is sometimes made is to try to apply Normal Characteristic Maxima to characters like Batman. The problem with it is that it is not consistently applied. Batman is actually one of the faster and stronger members of the JLA - certainly at the top end of those that don't have those attributes specifically included as part of their superpowers. Mechanically, however, the application of NCM will ensure that Batman ends up at the bottom of the heap. I very strongly suggest avoiding this.

 

Actually, I did look at Normal Characteristic Maxima as the basis for a soft cap on characteristics, but I eventually walked away from that, as it felt contrary to the spirit of super-heroic role-play. I'll take your advice and write NCM off my list of tools to use.

 

And I'll take a harder look at Batman.

[psyber624]

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

 

Personally I would feel like Batman should fit under NCM for his strength. He is right around 20 I would think, the extreme limit of normal human strength (which is under NCM). Now his other stats (Ego especially) definitely wouldn't fall under NCM. We never really see Bats throwing cars around, picking up telephone poles to beat someone with, etc. His extra damage on punches and such come from either +HA (if your building it like hardened gloves or his Shock Knuckles he occasionally uses to take on Brick types) or just extra damage classes with his Martial Arts.

 

Note that I am NOT saying he should have NCM (I really don't like that as a complication. It's fine as a campaign element but if a player is taking that for his character he is probably not intending to take any stat over NCM anyway (so its free Complication points) or he intends to cheese his way past (Using the "stats as powers" trick).

[Greywind]

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

 

Batman isn't normal. He's obsessive, which is a mental disorder. He is also an Olympic-class athlete. Weight training might get him over 20 fairly easily. There are some weight lifters that push a 30 STR by the chart.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

 

While 30 STR is no "realistic" 30 is the default benchmark for "peak human" in Champions. To not allow "trained normals" to have stats over 20 is needlessly punishing the player for choosing that concept. If you want to cap Batman at 20 STR based on "realism" let's start talking about how realistic Superman's freeze breath and other powers are (or more obviously aren't).

[Cassandra]

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

 

Even the DC Superhero Roleplaying game had Batman at STR 5, which translates to 25 STR in Champions. Joker was at STR 5 (30 STR in Champions).

[assault]

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

 

I'm actually perfectly comfortable with Batman having 20 STR. It's his DEX and SPD I tend to get excited about.

 

The last time I mucked about with the JLA, I was giving the superspeed characters between 32 and 35 DEX, and the non-superspeed characters down to 20-something. Pretty high by the standards of most games, but they were the JLA.... Batman was around the 30 mark. The low end were people like Green Lantern, the Atom and Aquaman.

 

You could easily tone this down.

[Cassandra]

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

 

Exactly my point, Assault. The reason why you have classic comic book superheroes built on a massive amount of points is because of their long history and the desire of the player to do everything that they can in the comics (or tv or movies).

 

But you don't have to have 30 STR, 30 DEX, and 6 SPD to do those things against most opponents. It's up to the GM to have villains that are tough but on the same level as the hero. A superhero should be well rounded, with skills to track down the villains, and combat power to take them down.

 

Villains however can be unbalanced, with higher defenses and combat power then the heroes, and with followers and tricks to trap the hero.

 

Followers will especially be unbalanced. You could have many with 20 STR 14 DEX and a special weapon, but no other skills and few defenses. The hero can easily defeat them one on one, but will be outnumbered most of the time. A little teamwork can take the hero down.

[Cassandra]

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

 

Deconstructing Superman

 

Superhuman Strength - 60 STR means he can press 100 tons, which is the maximum in the Marvel Universe. Anything more borders on the silly.

 

Superhuman Dexterity and Speed - 23 DEX 5 SPD is superhuman. Flash could easily be 26 DEX 6 SPD and still be the Fastest Man Alive.

 

Bulletproof - 20 rPD Defense is enough to prevent damage from a RKA 2d6, which is average for handguns and rifles. Machine guns of the same cost are RKA 1d6 Autofire, which makes it more likely that Superman would be hit, but less likely to to damage.

 

Invulnerable - Life Support for High Pressure, High Radiation, Intense Cold, Intense Heat, Low Pressure/Vacuum, and throw in Extended Breathing for superstrong lungs.

 

Supermind - Eidetic Memory, Cramming, Lightning Calcuator, 23 INT, Speed Reading.

 

Supersenses - N-Ray Sight, Microscopic Sight, Ultrasonic Hearing, and PER +4 (Works the same as Telescopic Sight/Hearing)

 

Heat Vision/Superbreath - EB Variable Special Effects means you get at attack against ED (Heat) and PD (Breath)

 

These powers and more can be built into a character costing 350 Points.

 

What else do you need?

[Greywind]

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

 

Speed as a stat, I don't see pertaining to "fastest" where the Flash is concerned. A lot of that is just how fast that he can move. Running. Lots of running. Mega-scaled, even.

[kahuna's bro]

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

 

don't forge flas can move his arms at supersped allowing him th e power create wind blasts

[assault]

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

 

What else do you need?

 

Versions of the Flash, Batman, Green Arrow, Hawkman and the Atom that don't die.

[assault]

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

 

I've been mucking about with some low point JLA members, based on their Silver Age appearances. A lot of them do more or less work. I'm looking at 350/400 point characters (5e/6e), but essentially built to "Low-Powered Superhero" benchmarks.

 

The problem is that there are a small number of characters who can't be handled like this. Wonder Woman and Superman are obvious examples. Batman and the Martian Manhunter might just be possible, but both would lose a lot of detail.

 

I'm using a similar approach to how I wrote up a bunch of JSA characters last year, only with an extra 100 points. The idea, of course, is to create characters that are fairly simple, and easy to upgrade to higher power levels.

 

I'll post some examples in the next day or two, assuming I still care about it enough. My attention span is like that.

[kahuna's bro]

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

 

don't forge these character were not originall designed for gaming its possible some thing may be lost in translation so to speak

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

 

Surbrook's Stuff

http://surbrook.devermore.net/adaptationscomic/comicchar.html

 

Matt's Champions Page - The 250 & 350 Point Project

http://home.comcast.net/~mathewignash/champions.html

 

Hyper-Man's JLA 350 Project - Killshrike.com

http://www.killershrike.com/MiscCharacters/Contributions/Hyper-Man/Supers/JLA/WriteUps.aspx

 

DC Database Project - Wiki

http://dcdatabaseproject.com/Main_Page

 

DC Universe Online

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DC_Universe_Online

 

Converting Champions to Mutants and Masterminds

http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?p=266549

 

 

Cheers

 

 

QM

[Sammael]

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

 

I've been mucking about with some low point JLA members, based on their Silver Age appearances. A lot of them do more or less work. I'm looking at 350/400 point characters (5e/6e), but essentially built to "Low-Powered Superhero" benchmarks.

 

The problem is that there are a small number of characters who can't be handled like this. Wonder Woman and Superman are obvious examples. Batman and the Martian Manhunter might just be possible, but both would lose a lot of detail.

 

I'm using a similar approach to how I wrote up a bunch of JSA characters last year, only with an extra 100 points. The idea, of course, is to create characters that are fairly simple, and easy to upgrade to higher power levels.

 

I'll post some examples in the next day or two, assuming I still care about it enough. My attention span is like that.

 

Well, if you do, I'll certainly check them out.

[Sammael]

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

 

don't forge these character were not originall designed for gaming its possible some thing may be lost in translation so to speak

 

So true. But since the comics themselves weren't consistent, it shouldn't really be a serious problem unless you're trying to simulate a specific version of the character.

[Greywind]

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

 

Main reason I don't bother trying to build a specific character. Instead I just do homages to favorites.

[Sammael]

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

 

Surbrook's Stuff

http://surbrook.devermore.net/adaptationscomic/comicchar.html

 

Matt's Champions Page - The 250 & 350 Point Project

http://home.comcast.net/~mathewignash/champions.html

 

Hyper-Man's JLA 350 Project - Killshrike.com

http://www.killershrike.com/MiscCharacters/Contributions/Hyper-Man/Supers/JLA/WriteUps.aspx

 

DC Database Project - Wiki

http://dcdatabaseproject.com/Main_Page

 

DC Universe Online

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DC_Universe_Online

 

Converting Champions to Mutants and Masterminds

http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?p=266549

 

 

Cheers

 

 

QM

 

Thanks for the links TheQuestionMan. I've encountered a few of them before, but the Champions - M&M link, in particular, looks very interesting!

[Grailknight]

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

 

Determine the baseline of "real" technology in your world. By this i mean, stat out your machine guns, tanks, and other armaments with a focus on the heavier man portable stuff. It doesn't have to be realistic just consistent. Then compare it to what the PCs and NPCs have.

 

Determine how much of a threat you want standard law enforcement and criminals to be. The longer Supers have been active in your world the better equipped they will be. An ambush by a SWAT team should be a real challenge in high threat universes and an annoyance in low threat situations.

 

If you find that real weaponry is more dangerous than you'd like or more commonly, IME, that real objects are too tough, you have several options.

 

1- Raise the points

 

2- Give supers Damage Negation or Reduction as a campaign setting.

 

3- Give real things limitations or vulnerabilites against supers

 

4- Some combination of 1, 2 and 3.

[Cassandra]

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

 

Regarding lower level superheroes, I think one of the reasons why the Dark Knight and even Iron Man were such hits because they were relatable, that is not invincible. Iron Man without his suit is must a man, albeit a billionaire genius. So is Bruce Wayne, but even with all his training it didn't prevent him from suffering in the Dark Knight Rises (which I have to admit thought went on a little too long).

 

Marvel is the company of low level superheroes, those with a lot of little abilities and maybe one major powers, and one major weakness.

 

DC has the legends, the bigger then life characters with the attitudes, enemies, and fatal vulnerabilities to go with it.

[Cassandra]

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

 

Most thugs are going to have 25 points of characteristics, mostly in STR, DEX, PRE, SPD, and PD. They will have some HA for brawling, a combat level or two, and a RKA in the from of a gun. Most heroes would be able to take them down in hand to hand combat even without martial arts or weapons.

 

Here is a point scale to keep things reasonable

 

0 points - Innocent Civilians, the kind of people the heroes have to protect because they are completely vulnerable.

25 points - Important person or low level thug, someone the heroes have to protect because they have non-combat skills, or some normals armed with a gun, club, or knife and work for the villain cheap.

50 points - police officers, soldiers, and paid mercenaries who are better armed and trained, and skilled normals dnpc for heroes.

75 points - elite soldiers, federal agent, or international spies, or the best of the best hired guns who haven't crossed over into being super villains yet.

100 points - Sidekicks or top operatives for super villains.

250 points - Standard superheroes and super villains.

350 points - Legendary superheroes and super villains who either defend the world, or try and take it over, and who are best being used as NPC to keep the players humble.

[Sammael]

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

 

Determine the baseline of "real" technology in your world. By this i mean, stat out your machine guns, tanks, and other armaments with a focus on the heavier man portable stuff. It doesn't have to be realistic just consistent. Then compare it to what the PCs and NPCs have.

 

Determine how much of a threat you want standard law enforcement and criminals to be. The longer Supers have been active in your world the better equipped they will be. An ambush by a SWAT team should be a real challenge in high threat universes and an annoyance in low threat situations.

 

If you find that real weaponry is more dangerous than you'd like or more commonly, IME, that real objects are too tough, you have several options.

 

1- Raise the points

 

2- Give supers Damage Negation or Reduction as a campaign setting.

 

3- Give real things limitations or vulnerabilites against supers

 

4- Some combination of 1, 2 and 3.

 

Ah. This seems very practical to me. No wonder I didn't think of it. I'll do this, GrailKnight, but I'm not sure I fully understand you. When you say that real objects are too tough, are you referring to the Breaking Things rules? Do you find that many objects' PD, ED, and Body are too high?