Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

[Jason S.Walters]

I’m *tentatively* beginning to talk to our investors about a project that would be like Champions Complete, but would be for Fantasy Hero. Like Champions Complete, this project would be a “minimalist” 240-page, softcover, $40 MSRP black-and-white book with no original interior artwork but an awesome new cover. However, there are a couple of different directions I could see this project going in, and I would like your input.

 

Fantasy Hero Complete: A stand-alone book that contains “everything” you need to play Fantasy Hero. I've given some thought about how such a book might be crammed into 240-pages, and it would be a “very” tight fit. But I think it could be done if it were very, very crunch intensive, we removed *absolutely* everything that wasn't directly related to playing Fantasy (including some Skills, Talents, and so forth), and if we (for example) included spells and magic items as power examples, rather than given them their own sections.

 

(Also, if we used prose as sparingly as a samurai composing a Haiku.)

 

Fantasy Champions: We could basically take Fantasy Hero 6^th Ed, compress it down to 240 pages, and replace any and all references to 6E1 & 6E2 with references to Champions Complete, making it a supplement book for Champions Complete. This would be a *significantly* easier book to do, and we could go into detail about ever so many more interesting and useful things like spells, magic items, equipment, and so forth.

 

It would still have to be very, very crunchy.

 

My guess is that no matter which approach we take, I would have to have the author create a pretty massive “second” PDF containing a fair number of commonly used monsters and generic sample characters to make such a book totally usable as a stand-alone game – though this could be done pretty quickly using existing material. I could bundle this document with the PDF of the book itself and include it with purchase of the book, both through the store and through Bits-and-Mortar.

 

Which approach would you favor? Do you have another suggestion entirely? Is there something glaringly obvious I’m missing here? Please let me know.

 

“The Management”

 

(Note: Fantasy Hero has always been our second most popular product line, and Champions Complete has been a reasonably financially successful product thus far. Also, we've just sold out of our last copies of FH 6^th Edition. So this product would seem to make sense. But the investors may very well decide that this project isn't a financially viable one, so please don’t take this an announcement that we will definitely create this product. We may not. At this point I’m just looking for input from you all.)

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

Seems to me that instead of the "anything Fantasy-ish you can think of" approach of the "Fantasy HERO Phonebook" circa 5e / 6e, it might be time to re-focus on a "core" experience with some narrowing of options, one or two general purpose / compact magic systems that are shall we say "familiar" from other more mainstream game systems with some staple spells, some common "class" and "race" oriented packages, gear list, a compact vs full write-ups bestiary, and some sample characters. If it's a successful product, future small supplements could extend the core with more unusual / less commonly seen variations on fantasy.

 

If Savage Worlds can do it (i.e. tiny little 150 page Fantasy Companion), the HERO System ought to be able to do it better.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

I prefer the second option, but don't really dig the name Fantasy Champions. (Fantasy Hero Incomplete, maybe?)

 

I think the FH 4th edition book was 240 pages, and it was certainly meaty enough. Should be quite doable in that page count.

 

Also, I think KS's idea on a slightly different approach has merit. More focus on stuff usable out of the box -- templates, spells, magic items, monsters, sample magic systems, and the like. The FH 6th edition full PDF can remain available for the howto sections and extra commentary.

[Egyptoid]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

call it ADVANCED BLUDGEONS & FLAGONS

but seriously, just because you can do anything with Hero

doesnt mean you have to.

Use the KISS method.

 

Make up or borrow a coherent, cool yet easy magic system, build that with Hero,

and put that in the book. Let them figure out later they can build whatever they desire.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

The problem with Fantasy Hero Complete is that there would be a huge overlap with Champions Complete. They're both the core rules with some advice on running a particular genre. I feel a dedicated fantasy book would be better.

 

(Full disclosure: I own both 6e and FH, but not CC. I do plan to buy CC, but would probably not buy a new fantasy book unless it offered substantial new material.)

[Ternaugh]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

I like KS's suggestion, as I still turn back to the 4th Edition FH material when I want to build a game. And for new folks to the system, it really helps if they have a basic magic system and setting to experiment with.

 

Otherwise, I'm in the Option 2 camp. Make it an add-on to the core rules in CC.

 

JoeG

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

Hmm... interesting question.

 

There's a qualitative difference between a "Champions Complete" and a "Fantasy Hero Complete." The superhero genre generally -- not always, but generally -- uses the real contemporary world as a reference point. Assumptions about geopolitics, history, technology, etc. don't have to be dealt with in the core book other than as suggestions and guidelines, since most people won't be building those things from scratch. OTOH the fantasy genre requires a GM and game group to make many assumptions about how things are and how they work, and with a system as wide-open as HERO, some of this stuff has to be presented with concrete examples and options.

 

That said, I think Killer Shrike has a point. Most other fantasy games don't try to present everything that could possibly be done, and everything you could potentially use, in one book. For that matter, Champions Complete doesn't, either. You don't have the official game setting, all the super villains, or lots of prewritten super powers, in the core book. There's a line of supplementary books for those things. CC doesn't even delve into supers gaming to the same degree that the 6E genre book does. However, you do get enough to understand how to start playing, and if you feel up to designing the elements of your game world yourself you don't need more than CC to run any game. I'm hearing that that's a big part of the appeal of the CC package, so if you want to draw in the fantasy fan base in the same way it seems like a good precedent to follow. I hear from many Hero gamers that they use Hero to play supers but not fantasy, or vice versa, so I have my doubts as to how much overlap there'd actually be.

 

My own suggestion would be something in the middle of your options, and actually reminscent of the approach used for Fourth Edition FH. Bundle the same core rules as in CC with a less comprehensive version of fantasy gaming advice, pulling the basic elements out of FH 6E, and perhaps incorporating some of your suggestions such as power examples for magic spells and items, but without overdoing the crunch and undercutting the prose or artwork that adds appeal. Call that Fantasy Hero Complete, and you'd have what most gamers expect when they pick up a core book.

 

Then put all the detailed examinations of fantasy gaming topics, sample spell systems, etc. into a Fantasy Hero Companion. IMO and IME, these are things that interest and are of use to some gamers, but many either already understand these issues and want to create their own game elements (particularly true of Hero gamers), or don't feel a need for that much detail. You could add these things to the examples of monsters and sample characters you were considering putting into a bundled PDF, but I suspect it would work better as a separate book, along the lines of the Advanced Players Guide(s), for folks who really want to get into fantasy world-building but would like more advice.

 

If that seems unworkable or undesirable to you, then I would have to come down in support of your first option. I don't see a great benefit to massively redoing 6E FH unless it's to follow the new "Complete" direction and get away from the "core book plus genre supplements" model. And the title Fantasy Champions sends entirely the wrong message to prospective buyers as to what kind of product they're getting, especially people looking to get into the game. (If you do decide to go with the second option, I strongly recommend considering a different title, although at the moment I'm at a loss to suggest a better one.)

[Jason S.Walters]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

Good suggestions everyone. Some of them had already occurred to me, some had not. Please do continue.

[Beast]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

Option 2 please

I see no need for an other condensed down core rules

 

240 pages of Genre,Tropes,Grimores and monsters will be a tight fit to begin with

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

As a potential data point for FH Complete, the original, first edition Fantasy Hero book was smaller in page count than CC, and while it was sparse it was completely usable. I think sparsity can be a good thing leaving it to GMs and players to fill in ore blanks and be more creative.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

Going back to the Fourth Edition parallels, is a separate Hero System Complete book with just the rules from CC on the table at all?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

As a potential data point for FH Complete' date=' the original, first edition Fantasy Hero book was smaller in page count than CC, and while it was sparse it was completely usable. I think sparsity can be a good thing leaving it to GMs and players to fill in ore blanks and be more creative.[/quote']

 

I was thinking more of FH 4E. Create something comparable to that genre-advice-wise, without most of the spell colleges and the example setting, and stick in the latest condensed rules. That should be eminently doable in 240 pages.

 

BTW if you're thinking of including a generic example setting as part of any incarnation of the new FH, in the spirit of "out of the box play," and you still own the rights to the Western Shores, that would be a good template to base it on. Familiar to most gamers, easy to get into, fair detail and diversity without being overwhelming.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

Option 2 please

I see no need for an other condensed down core rules

 

240 pages of Genre,Tropes,Grimores and monsters will be a tight fit to begin with

 

See, now here's a real crux issue. Those of us who already play Hero System likely own not only the 6E rule and genre books, but previous editions as well. Edition fatigue is a factor. A "Complete" book will likely appeal most to folks just getting into Hero, either through fantasy, supers, or any other genre that ultimately gets published. OTOH quite a few veterans already say they have or will buy Champions Complete for the benefit of having more accessible rules in one book. How many of them would be reluctant to invest in a Fantasy Hero Complete which reproduces those rules, and would new Hero gamers offset them? That's a tough call.

[Ryhope Wood]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

Seems to me that instead of the "anything Fantasy-ish you can think of" approach of the "Fantasy HERO Phonebook" circa 5e / 6e, it might be time to re-focus on a "core" experience with some narrowing of options, one or two general purpose / compact magic systems that are shall we say "familiar" from other more mainstream game systems with some staple spells, some common "class" and "race" oriented packages, gear list, a compact vs full write-ups bestiary, and some sample characters. If it's a successful product, future small supplements could extend the core with more unusual / less commonly seen variations on fantasy.

 

If Savage Worlds can do it (i.e. tiny little 150 page Fantasy Companion), the HERO System ought to be able to do it better.

 

I agree wholeheartedly with this approach. It is interesting that one of the most popular GURPS lines is "Dungeon Fantasy", which honed the system down to a specific D&D like experience. Many new players for HERO System will have had some contact with Supers or D&D but felt the latter limited their creativity. They want D&D that they can tweak to their own game worlds but presenting too many options will intimidate them ( and they may be lost to other systems like Savage Worlds or GURPS).

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

(Full disclosure: I own both 6e and FH' date=' but not CC. I do plan to buy CC, but would probably not buy a new fantasy book unless it offered substantial new material.)[/quote']

 

Also in the spirit of full disclosure, I suspect I'm not alone in being tired of Hero Games constantly recycling books I already own. I didn't buy the 6E Champions or Fantasy HERO genre books because they were substantially the same as the 5E versions, except for game-system changes. I bought the Champions Villains trilogy on PDF to support the company and catch up on the few new villains, but couldn't bring myself to spring for the hard copies. OTOH I pounced on the Book Of The Empress Kickstarter because it was mostly all-new material, and own both hardcopy and PDF.

 

I understand the reasoning behind a new Hero book dealing with fantasy, and I want to offer as much constructive input as I can. But to be completely honest, whichever option might be chosen for this book, I would have zero interest in buying it for myself. If I had a game group that I wanted to introduce to fantasy gaming using HERO, this would be at the top of my list. As we have all the rules and advice we need, though, it's hard to justify apportioning such disposable income as I have for it.

 

What worries me is that the recycling trend may lead to diminishing returns in the way of sales to existing HERO gamers. Particularly since the industry insiders keep telling us that large numbers of new gamers for HERO to tap into just aren't there.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

I as a veteran did buy Champions Complete. I would absolutely not buy a Fantasy Hero Complete that was essentially option 1. If I were a new player, I would strongly consider buying a Fantasy Champions by whatever name; non-hypothetical me might still buy it but I honestly have no need for it and probably wouldn't use it.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

What worries me is that the recycling trend may lead to diminishing returns in the way of sales to existing HERO gamers. Particularly since the industry insiders keep telling us that large numbers of new gamers for HERO to tap into just aren't there.

 

Jason will have numbers that will give him a better handle on it than we have...

 

I just checked the Hero Store, and FH 6th edition retailed for $44.99. It seems to me that it would be more worth it to reprint as is, except in soft cover and B&W and with references altered to CC, given that the book we're discussing would retail for $40. You're not paying a writer or layout and using less expensive printing; I'd be surprised if the theoretical reprint wouldn't come to less.

[Scott Baker]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

I think that the second option would lead to brand confusion. It also seems to me that Hero has been doing the core rules + genre books for some time now, and it (at least currently) is not a sustaining model. While true herophiles, who like to buy everything, may see duplication, we're not a big enough group to sustain sales. A complete game, without reference to another (non-fantasy) title would let new players pick up the one book and go.

 

So my vote is for Fantasy Hero Complete. I also agree with previous posts that the book should include a spell system that can be used out-of-the-box. We all know who the big contenders are in the fantasy market. While Hero isn't class-based, perhaps some short examples (maybe in the extra PDF you mentioned) could show how to build the basic stereotypes.

 

I also think that, if you go this route, there should be some planning around how to market the extra materials that many players of other systems expect to be available. Like the Bestiary, a Spell Book, etc.

[dmjalund]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

It also seems to me that Hero has been doing the core rules + genre books for some time now' date=' and it (at least currently) is not a sustaining model.[/quote']It may have been the choice of genre

[Tasha]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

Perhaps the real way to go would be to introduce a book that includes the Game world, Magic System, Races etc. A book that would add to the rules in Champions Complete, but include a D&D/Pathfinder like High Fantasy Game world. Having everything someone would need in a single book with fluffy background gluing the whole thing together would be great.

 

Ditch the "___ Age" titles they always left me flat. I always like the "Guide to worldnamehere" or World of "worldnamehere" even "worldnamehere" Hero. Unfortunatly using the Champions name would give the impression of a Fantasy Superhero world. Nothing wrong with that if someone wanted to write such a thing, but probably not what people would be expecting a Fantasy Hero supplement to be called. No matter what you call it you could always create a graphic saying "A Supplement for Champions Complete" right on the front cover so there is no confusion as to the need of CC to play the game. Also the back should both say that there is a complete fantasy world included, but also sell the world as being someplace fun to run adventures in.

 

I would take an edit of whatever "Age" sourcebook is actually High Fantasy with other stuff taken from the Grimoire, FH Genre Book, Magic items book, and Bestiary(for some creatures to fight). Pare the world's magic system(s) to no more than 4 with 2 being the actual target. The systems should be pretty generic (ie Arcane vs Divine). Versions of Classic D&D spells should exist. Also recognizable versions of talents/ races and monsters should be there too.

 

Again everything to run a D&D style fantasy Game (aside from core rules) all in one book. Perhaps called "Dungeon Hero"?

[Ryhope Wood]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

Dungeon Hero sounds good to me.

 

As someone who has wrestled on and off with embracing HERO System for a while to run D&D type fantasy (not a dungeon crawl but certainly sword and sorcery), the two most useful things would be:

 

(1) Tailoring the rules specifically to my chosen genre and pulling it all into one place (with a not too heavy word count); and

(2) Support to GMs creating adventures (a magic system and bestiary) including a good introductory adventure.

 

One option to deliver (1) might be to revisit the old Viking, Egyptian or Greek supplements that used to be produced by ICE with stats for Hero. The world books would be fairly tightly defined and could be a useful jumping on point.

 

Low fantasy or sword and sorcery would be much better than a high fantasy / Demi-gods type setting to ease new players into the system.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

Jason will have numbers that will give him a better handle on it than we have...

 

I just checked the Hero Store, and FH 6th edition retailed for $44.99. It seems to me that it would be more worth it to reprint as is, except in soft cover and B&W and with references altered to CC, given that the book we're discussing would retail for $40. You're not paying a writer or layout and using less expensive printing; I'd be surprised if the theoretical reprint wouldn't come to less.

 

I've been thinking about this as well. Given the ambitiousness of what Jason proposed including in the new FH package, and that Champions Complete is being advertised as the new "core" rulebook, if he decided not to go with a "Complete" book for fantasy I would just as soon see FH 6E updated and printed this way. Of course if the references to the core book were altered it wouldn't count as a "reprint" and would cost as much to print as a whole new book; but the format changes might enable the company to bring the price of the finished book down to what Jason suggested.

[Beast]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

I Like LL's suggestion of just updating 6e FH to CC standards and a soft cover

the same could be done for the rest of the 6ed line as it sells out

 

I think more books covering new subjects is what is needed

at least that is what I'm looking for in Hero products

 

the only reason I got FH 6th ed was because I found it on Amazon for 19.95$ brand new but it was in the UK

so it took 3 weeks to get to SoCal

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

I Like LL's suggestion of just updating 6e FH to CC standards and a soft cover

 

Credit due to Chris Goodwin for the suggestion. I'll take all the accolades I deserve, though.

[Jason S.Walters]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

That sums up the problem very nicely I think.

 

See' date=' now here's a real crux issue. Those of us who already play Hero System likely own not only the 6E rule and genre books, but previous editions as well. Edition fatigue is a factor. A "Complete" book will likely appeal most to folks just getting into Hero, either through fantasy, supers, or any other genre that ultimately gets published. OTOH quite a few veterans already say they have or will buy [i']Champions Complete[/i] for the benefit of having more accessible rules in one book. How many of them would be reluctant to invest in a Fantasy Hero Complete which reproduces those rules, and would new Hero gamers offset them? That's a tough call.