Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

[Chris Goodwin]

I don't think there is a good solution to the "reprint the rules" conundrum.  Maybe we have to accept that the price of a game "playable out of the box" is reprinting the rules in each such game.  Offering the non-rules parts as a .pdf works fine for someone looking for just that part, but it's not an "on the store shelf" product. 

 

How many d20 games don't include a considerable portion of repeat rules text?  Is there a lot of resistance to that, or do we just hear "the rules are reminiscent of X" or "if you are already familiar with Game X, then learning this game will be pretty easy",  If the goal is a product the buyer can take home, read and start playing immediately, then each game needs to have the rules.  That's not to say we can't tweak some things to be a better fit with the genre and make the rules look a bit different in the process (rename some skills and powers, for example, and even emphasize different rules as "core" and "optional"), but a "complete game" needs to be, well, a complete game.

 

True, but if I'm paying $80 for effectively one set of rules and 160 pages of howto material, where's the value add?  I can pay less than that for CC plus FH6e in PDF, or even less for CC plus FH6e with "damaged" cover.  The latter wouldn't be "complete", and it might not be all usable out of the box, but I think it's hard to argue it's not more value.  

[Hugh Neilson]

I didn't pay $80 for CC - has the US dollar slipped THAT much?

 

The target audience is a big question - would I buy it?  Maybe not.  I took a long time to buy CC, and it was more an impulse purchase than one carefully planned out.  But I already was buying Hero - that's not really the target market, is it?  Does that target want to buy CC and a Fantasy add-on, or do they just want a Fantasy game in one book?  Do they want a bunch of options for their own Fantasy game/setting, or do they want a playable game/setting right out of the box? 

 

We seem focused on the former, an approach that seems to work well for Supers.  But is that because Supers are all over the map to begin with, so lots of options and little to tie it together works there, and not for other genres?

 

Maybe the focus should be a Fantasy Game "Powered by the Hero System" - one that uses the underlying Hero engine, but only provides the rules and options that are in use in this game, in this setting (whether from the rules, from Fantasy Hero or from setting and other supplement books).  Whether that means pre-fab spells, or the tools to build spells, it might exclude power frameworks completely (if not used in this magic system), set the dial to Hit Locations, present only a few, especially germane optional rules and leave out things not directly used in the game.

 

Or even leave out some lesser used elements and save them for future releases.  This sells really well, so we introduce the Southlands, which uses a different magic system, new weapons and armor and, perhaps, provides some options to change the dial settings normally used in this game.  Or publish a brand new game with a different setting and different dial settings (if the first was Turakian Age style high fantasy, maybe this one is the grittier, lower magic Valdorian Age style sword and sorcery).  Maybe present it as at least semi-compatible, or maybe leave them as completely separate games.

[Chris Goodwin]

I didn't pay $80 for CC - has the US dollar slipped THAT much?

 

Ahh, nope.  If FHC is $40, and CC is $40, someone buying both pays $80 for effectively one set of rules and not a whole lot of fluff.  Being able to at least get the hard copy of one and PDF of the other for $40 would go a long way toward softening that blow for me.  

 

 

 

The target audience is a big question - would I buy it?  Maybe not.  I took a long time to buy CC, and it was more an impulse purchase than one carefully planned out.  But I already was buying Hero - that's not really the target market, is it?  Does that target want to buy CC and a Fantasy add-on, or do they just want a Fantasy game in one book?  Do they want a bunch of options for their own Fantasy game/setting, or do they want a playable game/setting right out of the box? 

 

True.  CC and FHC might end up selling to different audiences.  I also took a while to buy CC, and it wasn't because I needed it; I'm still in "Support Hero Games" mode.  On the other hand, it's nice to not have to lug around ten pounds of books to play Champions.  

[Doc Democracy]

This is more or less what Fantasy Hero 1e was, and IMO what FHC should be.  Given the likely page counts, you could easily get all of the non-rules information from FH1 (actually probably more!) into a CC-sized book with the CC rules trimmed down for fantasy.  

 

I remember first edition FH come out.  Even remember the competition to think of a cool name for it.  :-)

 

Not sure it had the style or panache of 2E Runequest though....we need someone with a decent, long time campaign that we could steal....

[Hugh Neilson]

Ahh, nope.  If FHC is $40, and CC is $40, someone buying both pays $80 for effectively one set of rules and not a whole lot of fluff.  Being able to at least get the hard copy of one and PDF of the other for $40 would go a long way toward softening that blow for me.  

 

True.  CC and FHC might end up selling to different audiences.  I also took a while to buy CC, and it wasn't because I needed it; I'm still in "Support Hero Games" mode.  On the other hand, it's nice to not have to lug around ten pounds of books to play Champions.  

 

OK, now I get the $80.  So let's say that we abandon FHC and instead just publish a shorter, all-fantasy book and rely on CC for the rules.  Don't the Fantasy gamers have the same desire to not have to lug around ten pounds of books to play Fantasy Hero?  Why do they need to lug around FH and CC?

 

It seems like we're looking at this as though Champions is the base game, and Fantasy Hero is an add-on ("How to use the Champions rules for Fantasy, instead of Supers, which is the main game, so that's where the real rules are") rather than both Champions and Fantasy Hero being separate games using the same base rules engine ("want to play Supers?  Buy CC - it's all in one place"  "want to play Fantasy?  Buy FHC - it's all in one place").

 

One of the two needs to be the marketing approach selected.  Neither is inherently superior.  Hero could certainly focus on Champions alone, and compete with other Supers games in the marketplace.  FHC suggests that's not the choice they're making, though, and if they want to compete cross-genre, I think they do need to give each genre its own "complete in one book" starting product.

[Chris Goodwin]

OK, now I get the $80.  So let's say that we abandon FHC and instead just publish a shorter, all-fantasy book and rely on CC for the rules.  Don't the Fantasy gamers have the same desire to not have to lug around ten pounds of books to play Fantasy Hero?  Why do they need to lug around FH and CC?

This is a good point.

 

One of the two needs to be the marketing approach selected.  Neither is inherently superior.  Hero could certainly focus on Champions alone, and compete with other Supers games in the marketplace.  FHC suggests that's not the choice they're making, though, and if they want to compete cross-genre, I think they do need to give each genre its own "complete in one book" starting product.

True enough. I agree with the need, I just hope it doesn't create any backlash.

[Old Man]

It seems like we're looking at this as though Champions is the base game, and Fantasy Hero is an add-on ("How to use the Champions rules for Fantasy, instead of Supers, which is the main game, so that's where the real rules are") rather than both Champions and Fantasy Hero being separate games using the same base rules engine ("want to play Supers?  Buy CC - it's all in one place"  "want to play Fantasy?  Buy FHC - it's all in one place").

 

This is the same mistake we've been making with Fantasy Hero for twenty years.  This treatment instantly relegates FH to a second-tier status where fantasy players who aren't interested in supers have to buy a supers game they don't want.  Many will refuse.  I would rather lower the barrier to entry for new players, rather than try to save grognards like ourselves a few bucks.  If that means I have to pony up $80 instead of $60, then so be it.

 

Printing a separate FH book would also help alleviate the perception that Hero is a supers ruleset being shoehorned, badly, into another genre.  And it gives us an opportunity to rewrite the base Hero rules in the book.  Obviously we don't want to change the rules themselves, but in an FH book you might want to spell out more fantasy-appropriate examples for Healing, Foci, and Side Effect.  That would improve the book overall and help get rid of the "it feels like supers" complaints that we sometimes hear about FH.

[Hugh Neilson]

Agreed - especially on the rules section needing to be more than a CC cut & paste.  It needs to evoke a fantasy feel, with different examples and perhaps even nomenclature changes.

 

It needs an author with the same rules knowledge, concise writing skills and passion for fantasy as Derek's rules knowledge, concise writing skills and passion for supers.

[Old Man]

How long did it take Derek to write CC?

[Derek Hiemforth]

About four months, but that included wedding planning, a wedding, and a honeymoon.  So really, closer to three months.  Of course, that was just the time from acceptance of the proposal to turning in of the manuscript.  That doesn't include editing, layout, etc.

[Vondy]

Pick an era to simulate and stick with it. And, for most people, later will be better. A setting that draws on the late middle ages to the early age of exploration would work. Most fantasy settings try to use an early base - like norman england - but include tons of anachronisms that moderns understand, appreciate, or simply expect. Without a love of early medieval history most players simply don't understand the culture and realities of the early middle ages. Something after the 12th century rennaissance and well into the 14th century rennaissance would be good. I would also like to see a magic that was useful without being combat centric - hermeticism, witchcraft, voodoo - those sorts of things. 

[Kaze9999]

I "vote" putting the rules in Fantasy Hero Complete, and coming up with a better name, like 'Champions' or 'Danger International'...there are so many, many fantasy rpg's that I think it should be named after and leverage something proprietary to Hero Games, like Valdorian Age (my favorite fantasy setting for from Hero Games).

 

If the spells and equipment and monsters and sample characters were all built in as power examples to save space, and they were all from a single (proprietary, deep) setting, then you'd save even more space and distinguish the book from others and even build in content that people who already own Champions Complete might want.

 

Basically, I think to make this work you need to pick a single genre, even a single setting for the book and put a page or two at the back about how the rules can be used for other settings. This would be more in line with Champions Complete because the super hero genre is a lot more narrowly defined then the fantasy genre.

[Theros]

To differ from Champions Complete. Some basic monsters should be in book. To have ready monsters is important in fantasy genre.

[Derek Hiemforth]

I know I'm in the minority on this, but I'll toss it out there anyway...

 

In this day and age, where almost everyone has (or can borrow) access to the Internet and a printer, I think maybe RPG books still include things they really don't need to anymore.  For example, does anyone photocopy blank character sheets out of books anymore?  Couldn't that be left as a free downloadable extra on a website?

 

In Champions Complete, I tried to make the examples as useful as possible (by having the example characters match the ten superhero archetypes, by having the example powers show how to recreate Powers from older editions of the game or create some of the most famous comic book superhero powers, etc.)  But even there, I wonder... Those things are probably useful to folks when they're first starting out, but once they've been playing a while, does that chapter turn into 28 pages of wasted space that they just carry around with them now?  Would it be better to have a free "Examples" download for folks?

 

So I don't know...  Part of me wonders if maybe books would benefit from focusing more on only including things that you'll always need, and deferring stuff you'll only need at first (like examples) or only use once or twice (like an adventure) into downloadable freebies. 

[Captain Obvious]

Wow.. I didn't realize what I was getting into when I clicked this thread.  Well, I'm four pages in and just realized that it's 15 pages long, and I don't have time now to go through it all.

 

I will say that, IMO, the best way to go about any kind of FH Complete would be to package one of the settings with enough of the rules to build the stuff in that setting.  Turakian Age may be too big for that, but the other FH settings would be great.  Judging by the seeming success of weird S&S settings like those in Lamentations of the Flame Princess and Dungeon Crawl Classics RPG, my bet would be with Valdorian Age.

[Lord Liaden]

I know I'm in the minority on this, but I'll toss it out there anyway...

 

In this day and age, where almost everyone has (or can borrow) access to the Internet and a printer, I think maybe RPG books still include things they really don't need to anymore.  For example, does anyone photocopy blank character sheets out of books anymore?  Couldn't that be left as a free downloadable extra on a website?

 

In Champions Complete, I tried to make the examples as useful as possible (by having the example characters match the ten superhero archetypes, by having the example powers show how to recreate Powers from older editions of the game or create some of the most famous comic book superhero powers, etc.)  But even there, I wonder... Those things are probably useful to folks when they're first starting out, but once they've been playing a while, does that chapter turn into 28 pages of wasted space that they just carry around with them now?  Would it be better to have a free "Examples" download for folks?

 

So I don't know...  Part of me wonders if maybe books would benefit from focusing more on only including things that you'll always need, and deferring stuff you'll only need at first (like examples) or only use once or twice (like an adventure) into downloadable freebies. 

 

That's a significant question. The impression I get from the fan base is that people who buy a RPG book, want everything they actually need to start playing to be in the book. Otherwise they seem to feel cheated. OTOH your observation about current Internet accessibility is very valid. My feeling is that maybe a book like FH Complete could split the difference: have a few example spells, magic items, creatures etc. in the book itself, but lots of other prebuilt items in supplementary ebooks available for download when they're ready for them, for free and/or purchase. Since we keep bringing up First Edition FH in this discussion, it's worth noting that that book had only a fairly small selection of prebuilt stuff included.

[Lord Liaden]

I will say that, IMO, the best way to go about any kind of FH Complete would be to package one of the settings with enough of the rules to build the stuff in that setting.  Turakian Age may be too big for that, but the other FH settings would be great.  Judging by the seeming success of weird S&S settings like those in Lamentations of the Flame Princess and Dungeon Crawl Classics RPG, my bet would be with Valdorian Age.

 

I'll briefly repeat what I suggested before upthread: Whatever setting is chosen, I recommend just detailing a local area for beginning PCs to use as a home base, with a brief overview of the rest of the setting. The world can be expanded in future supplements as players start exploring further afield. The way the official Hero Games setting books are organized would make that expansion process pretty straightforward.

[Beast]

I've been playing Champions/Hero System since 1985
I really liked the 4th Hero system book

It had a little of everything

I'd say keep CC in print as supers(genre wise it really is fairly narrow in scope)
 

now for the flame bait

 

Do a 4th ed Hero system book with NO GENRES at less than 200 pages(Just the tool box) and around 30$

Then do 200 page genre books on Danger International,Pulp Hero,Dark Hero,Fantasy Hero(High and Low Fantasy as a general approach later books doing the fine detail)and Super Hero,etc.....

These genre books should be POD/PDF

CC and the Hero System Tool Box would be the ones kept as in warehouse items

 

just my 2 cents

[kahuna's bro]

I’m *tentatively* beginning to talk to our investors about a project that would be like Champions Complete, but would be for Fantasy Hero. Like Champions Complete, this project would be a “minimalist” 240-page, softcover, $40 MSRP black-and-white book with no original interior artwork but an awesome new cover. However, there are a couple of different directions I could see this project going in, and I would like your input.

 

Fantasy Hero Complete: A stand-alone book that contains “everything” you need to play Fantasy Hero. I've given some thought about how such a book might be crammed into 240-pages, and it would be a “very” tight fit. But I think it could be done if it were very, very crunch intensive, we removed *absolutely* everything that wasn't directly related to playing Fantasy (including some Skills, Talents, and so forth), and if we (for example) included spells and magic items as power examples, rather than given them their own sections.

 

(Also, if we used prose as sparingly as a samurai composing a Haiku.)

 

Fantasy Champions: We could basically take Fantasy Hero 6^th Ed, compress it down to 240 pages, and replace any and all references to 6E1 & 6E2 with references to Champions Complete, making it a supplement book for Champions Complete. This would be a *significantly* easier book to do, and we could go into detail about ever so many more interesting and useful things like spells, magic items, equipment, and so forth.

 

It would still have to be very, very crunchy.

 

My guess is that no matter which approach we take, I would have to have the author create a pretty massive “second” PDF containing a fair number of commonly used monsters and generic sample characters to make such a book totally usable as a stand-alone game – though this could be done pretty quickly using existing material. I could bundle this document with the PDF of the book itself and include it with purchase of the book, both through the store and through Bits-and-Mortar.

 

Which approach would you favor? Do you have another suggestion entirely? Is there something glaringly obvious I’m missing here? Please let me know.

 

“The Management”

 

(Note: Fantasy Hero has always been our second most popular product line, and Champions Complete has been a reasonably financially successful product thus far. Also, we've just sold out of our last copies of FH 6^th Edition. So this product would seem to make sense. But the investors may very well decide that this project isn't a financially viable one, so please don’t take this an announcement that we will definitely create this product. We may not. At this point I’m just looking for input from you all.)

a fantasy HERO SPPLIMENT to CC seems like a good idea to me

[Pegasus40218]

Agreed - especially on the rules section needing to be more than a CC cut & paste.  It needs to evoke a fantasy feel, with different examples and perhaps even nomenclature changes.

 

It needs an author with the same rules knowledge, concise writing skills and passion for fantasy as Derek's rules knowledge, concise writing skills and passion for supers.

 

Definitely agree on the "concise writing skills".  Since I have a tendency to read every game system book I purchase cover-to-cover at least once (first pass is mainly to get a feel for the overall material, then I'll go back to try to pick up the nitty gritty details), I greatly appreciate the idea of being concise...and many of the HERO System books can be described as "verbose".

 

To put it another way: I studied Engineering.  I don't care much about "theory".  Tell me how it works and and what I need to know to actually do something useful with it.

[Pegasus40218]

  Would it be better to have a free "Examples" download for folks?

 

So I don't know...  Part of me wonders if maybe books would benefit from focusing more on only including things that you'll always need, and deferring stuff you'll only need at first (like examples) or only use once or twice (like an adventure) into downloadable freebies. 

 

I'd like to caution against short-changing examples.  My weekly gaming group is currently playing Pathfinder.  In many instances, the "rules" aren't particularly clearly written, and it's the accompanying example that is referred to find clarity.

 

Of course...the rules could have just been written better in the first place...   Of course, my situation, while hardly unique, involves a group of 6 gamers, 3-4 of which are rules lawyers (who constantly argue with each other about rules interpretations )...

[Pegasus40218]

Do a 4th ed Hero system book with NO GENRES at less than 200 pages(Just the tool box) and around 30$

Then do 200 page genre books on Danger International,Pulp Hero,Dark Hero,Fantasy Hero(High and Low Fantasy as a general approach later books doing the fine detail)and Super Hero,etc.....

These genre books should be POD/PDF

CC and the Hero System Tool Box would be the ones kept as in warehouse items

 

just my 2 cents

 

While I really like the idea of a 200-page generic system reference with supplements for the various genres, I'm having a hard time envisioning it...particularly considering the two "core" 6E books weigh in at around 750 pages and (while leaning heavily in the supers direction) aren't really genre-specific.  While there is certainly material that can be cut to reduce page count, I'm not sure you're going to get there without splitting the "Powers" section out into a separate supplement.  And is that what you really want to do, given that powers, and the ability to build pretty much anything with them, IS pretty much the heart of the system?

[Beast]

I'm not talking about the 2 core books for 6th ed
I'm talking about a plug and play system based on CC
The buyer buys what they want and the system does not look like it is bolted on to a supers game

CC is only 240 pages
the supers genre section starts at page 166
so you have anywhere from 34 to 78 pages(if you want to keep a 240 page count because that is the way books are built from the printers POV)

to give more examples or longer explanations

While I really like the idea of a 200-page generic system reference with supplements for the various genres, I'm having a hard time envisioning it...particularly considering the two "core" 6E books weigh in at around 750 pages and (while leaning heavily in the supers direction) aren't really genre-specific.  While there is certainly material that can be cut to reduce page count, I'm not sure you're going to get there without splitting the "Powers" section out into a separate supplement.  And is that what you really want to do, given that powers, and the ability to build pretty much anything with them, IS pretty much the heart of the system?

[Lord Liaden]

Well, if the goal is to try to draw a new generation of gamers into HERO gaming, the question becomes, Which approach will accomplish that better? A separate, "reasonably-sized" core rule book, with successive books dealing only with gaming in each genre? Or an "all in one" book for each genre, containing all the core rules tailored for that genre?

 

The anecdotal evidence seems to suggest that, for people who are looking to pick up a book for a new game, they want everything they need to play to be in that book. Discovering they have a book with rules but no game guides or examples, or game guides and examples but no rules, may disincline them to buy the additional book which has what they expected to get from their first purchase.

[bigbywolfe]

Well, if the goal is to try to draw a new generation of gamers into HERO gaming, the question becomes, Which approach will accomplish that better? A separate, "reasonably-sized" core rule book, with successive books dealing only with gaming in each genre? Or an "all in one" book for each genre, containing all the core rules tailored for that genre?

 

The anecdotal evidence seems to suggest that, for people who are looking to pick up a book for a new game, they want everything they need to play to be in that book. Discovering they have a book with rules but no game guides or examples, or game guides and examples but no rules, may disincline them to buy the additional book which has what they expected to get from their first purchase.

There was at least 1/2 a dozen cases of that gappening with the 6E Champions book that I heard of.