Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

[Old Man]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

I agree in principle, but I still think this is as good a time as any to make the attempt. AD&D4 was less than successful and "Next" is still under development. There's a good window for FH Complete right now.

[gojira]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

Hmm, weird, I can't seen Old Man's post.

 

OK, there it is. The boards weren't letting me see page 4.

[Jason S.Walters]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

Once again everyone: extremely intelligent and interesting comments. Thank you.

 

Here's my next question. If we create this product, we have two ways of financing it. The first is we finance it ourselves. I'm in favor of this idea for several reasons, but money is as always tight and the idea only works out if I can get some reasonable preorder commitments from the distributors. I will be speaking with them about this next week.

 

The second way is to do it as a Kickstarter project. We'd need to raise roughly 17k if we did it that way. The problem with that idea is twofold. First, like Champions Complete this isn't a product that an experienced Hero player really needs for his or herself. (More on that in a moment). Secondly, if we use Kickstarter for this product the distributors and retailers probably won't purchase very many. (Kickstarter is the kiss of death for distribution.) And it kind of defeats the purpose of creating something for the specific purpose of getting more fantasy-oriented gamers to try the system if they don't see it in the stores.

 

So if we used Kickstarter, we would have to structure things so that you guys could buy multiple copies of the product with the idea that you would be giving them out to players in your gaming group, friends, and so forth. Otherwise, even if we succeed at the Kickstarter, the book will fail in its purpose – and there is no point to doing it.

 

Your thoughts?

[teh bunneh]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

I think, for a product like this, you want it out on shelves. You want the local FGS to carry a copy (or several copies). If possible, you want your local Barnes & Noble to carry it. You want it available on Amazon. You want people to see it out there, to see that it's an alternative to Pathfinder and D&D. Just selling it to people who already play Hero (which is your main Kickstarter audience) won't really expand the player base much.

[Norm]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

Sorry for posting late in the game. I will pretty much be restating some ideas already mentioned before....

 

As far as why I play Fantasy Hero:

• Character development/customization - Most of our group started our current game by choosing from Race, Profession, and Cultural templates. However, as the game progressed they were able to choose how their character grew. If they wanted a wizard that learned to fight with a rapier, they could. That is how I pretty much introduced Fantasy Hero to three new people in our group.
  
• Unified rules for skills and combat.
  
• While we mainly play Fantasy, I like that we can easily play Future, Post-Apocalyptic, and Modern without needed to learn new rules. I know that this is against the idea of Fantasy Hero Complete, but it is the main reason that I have kept gaming with Hero.
  

 

I also wanted to say thank you to both Spence and Lord Liaden for their wonderful posts on page 3 of this thread.

• Spence's post includes a description of a customer (and yes, I am only one customer) who will not buy products that are Champions related. I own almost all of 5E, but at 6E I only started to buy things that I may play (Star Hero, Fantasy Hero). There are some exceptions here and there due to their content. Book of the Empress is an example because it could easily be used for Star Hero. I did not buy Champions Complete and will not buy this product if it is depended upon CC. I already have all of the core library. If this were to be an stand-alone item, I would definitely buy it and a couple more for my group to use as reference. I really like Spence's idea of having things distilled/filtered/transformed for use in the fantasy genre. Keep the book in the fantasy feel - change bugging to eavesdropping, etc. Basically love his summary at the end.
  
• Lord Laiden's post excited me because I am one of those people that have been begging and pleading for more details in the Turakian Age. It is a very rich world that covers a very broad scope. I feel that I do not have the time to fill in all of the details. I know that this was stated a couple of more places in this thread. With the Internet, all sorts of information is available about today's world for use in modern (or recent) day Champions game. Always been a little jealous of that. Right now, I am buying world info and adventures from Paizo and Kobold Press. Less time to read their material and shoe-horn them into Turakian Age.
  

 

As an ending point, a member of our group wants to GM. We have been playing Fantasy Hero for two years and he is proficient with it. However, he is working 50 hours a week, has three kids, two of them are going through boy scouts (which he volunteers a lot for). At the same time, his kids have expressed interest in RPGs. He does not have time to build worlds and develop campaigns. Therefore, he is going to use PathFinder because he can buy the rules, world, and campaign for one complete system.

[Norm]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

Great..... Jason asks another question while work was getting in the way of me replying to his last one...

 

Jason, I think that I agree with teh bunneh. If kickstarter is the death of distribution, maybe you should not go that route. Maybe some supplements could be done by kickstarter. Especially if you are trying to bring in more people.

 

How is Champions Complete doing? Could you use a ratio from 5E and 6E sales of both Champions and Fantasy Hero, then compared to Champions Complete to see if it is worth your while to do this? If this a stand alone book sign me up for two or three. I know that it does not really help. I have heard that the writing, editing, art, and such are the main costs of books. If you did it yourself, would it be possible to do pre-orders to help with the print run estimates. Hell, if it helps with the distributors, could you go back to the old model of a delay in selling the books on the Hero site? Maybe two weeks?

 

Good luck in this Jason, I really hope that it succeeds.

 

Norm.

[Rhino]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

The question is how many more retail shelves can you get the book on if you go traditional versus Kickstarter? The next question is how many more new players will actually purchase the book merely from seeing it on the shelf?

 

It seems to me that Hero is a niche market. IMO the best way to create new players is to have old players go missionary. We have to get out of our comfort zone of playing with our old Hero buddies and actually try to introduce as many new players to Hero as possible. This means running introductory games at conventions and flgs, etc.

 

I think that Kickstarter is the way to go. Produce a game that the old players can use to introduce new players to the fold. Produce introductory adventures for the old players to run at conventions and game stores. There should be enough copies to get them on Amazon and into the game stores that want them. Provide a few copies as prizes at the games, etc. It is up to us to keep Hero a going concern.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

Once again everyone: extremely intelligent and interesting comments. Thank you.

 

Here's my next question. If we create this product, we have two ways of financing it. The first is we finance it ourselves. I'm in favor of this idea for several reasons, but money is as always tight and the idea only works out if I can get some reasonable preorder commitments from the distributors. I will be speaking with them about this next week.

 

The second way is to do it as a Kickstarter project. We'd need to raise roughly 17k if we did it that way. The problem with that idea is twofold. First, like Champions Complete this isn't a product that an experienced Hero player really needs for his or herself. (More on that in a moment). Secondly, if we use Kickstarter for this product the distributors and retailers probably won't purchase very many. (Kickstarter is the kiss of death for distribution.) And it kind of defeats the purpose of creating something for the specific purpose of getting more fantasy-oriented gamers to try the system if they don't see it in the stores.

 

We managed to raise 25K for Steve Long's Mythic Hero project, for which quite a few of the backers claimed they weren't really interested in the book but wanted to support Hero. And while as you say, experienced Hero gamers don't need it, not only is the general concensus on this thread that it's a good idea in principle, but no few of those folks say they want the book either for themselves, or to introduce Hero to their own game groups. Personally I'm confident that if you had to go the Kickstarter route, we could fund it.

 

So if we used Kickstarter, we would have to structure things so that you guys could buy multiple copies of the product with the idea that you would be giving them out to players in your gaming group, friends, and so forth. Otherwise, even if we succeed at the Kickstarter, the book will fail in its purpose – and there is no point to doing it.

 

Your thoughts?

 

Hmm... Don't know if there would be interest among the community in doing this anyway, but just to float the idea... is it possible to structure a reward tier in which we can designate an FLGS we know to which you can send copies of the book? Assuming a store owner would agree to put it on his shelves, he'd essentially be getting free product, and Hero Games would have shelf promotion for the book.

[Old Man]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

I'm not entirely clear on why kickstarter and distribution are mutually exclusive, but taking that at face value, I think it's obvious that we'd need to get FHC on shelves in order to try and reach new players. And by that I don't just mean FLGS, but Amazon and Barnes & Noble too. If that's possible.

[Nolgroth]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

Going purely on gut reaction, I would say that you should go with whatever begets distriution. If Kickstarter is bad for that, then skip it.

[gojira]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

I'm not entirely clear on why kickstarter and distribution are mutually exclusive

 

I'm sure it's because store owners perceive that if you've used Kickstarter, then you've already sold most of the copies that you could. Thus it isn't remunerative for the FLGS to stock since the customer base is much less.

 

I'm still digesting this info myself. I agree that the widest possible distribution is likely key.

 

I guess I'm thinking about the premise: self funding or Kickstarter are the only options. Other traditional funding methods are bank loans and selling shares. I realize this is very intrusive to your business, but I am wondering in what other ways could a $40k project be financed.

[Old Man]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

I could sell my virginity on eBay...

[Nolgroth]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

I could sell my virginity on eBay...

Barring the fact that nobody is going to believe in the 400 year old virgin thing.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

I'm not entirely clear on why kickstarter and distribution are mutually exclusive' date=' but taking that at face value, I think it's obvious that we'd need to get FHC on shelves in order to try and reach new players. And by that I don't just mean FLGS, but Amazon and Barnes & Noble too. If that's possible.[/quote']

 

Going purely on gut reaction' date=' I would say that you should go with whatever begets distriution. If Kickstarter is bad for that, then skip it.[/quote']

 

Jason, if you're asking us which option we prefer, based just on what you've told us, I'm with these guys. If self-financing will get you more exposure in stores, and it's practical, go for it.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

I could sell my virginity on eBay...

 

Price drops a lot if it's not in mint condition. You sure there's no foxing around the edges?

[Jason S.Walters]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

I'm not entirely clear on why kickstarter and distribution are mutually exclusive' date=' but taking that at face value, I think it's obvious that we'd need to get FHC on shelves in order to try and reach new players. And by that I don't just mean FLGS, but Amazon and Barnes & Noble too. If that's possible.[/quote']

 

The distributors (and many retailers) are reluctant to purchase products that have been funded by Kickstarter projects because the Kickstarter has already "cored out" the potential audience for the project. We still offer Kickstarter products to distribution, but they simply don't buy a lot of them. That's kind of how things are shaking out behind the scene in the industry: Kickstarter or distro. One or the other.

[Jason S.Walters]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

Champions Complete has sold over a thousand individual copies thus far in physical and electronic form, with roughly 700 copies going out through distribution. The investors and I consider it tentatively to be a success. If it sells another thousand copies, then it's definately a success.

 

How is Champions Complete doing? Could you use a ratio from 5E and 6E sales of both Champions and Fantasy Hero, then compared to Champions Complete to see if it is worth your while to do this? If this a stand alone book sign me up for two or three. I know that it does not really help. I have heard that the writing, editing, art, and such are the main costs of books. If you did it yourself, would it be possible to do pre-orders to help with the print run estimates. Hell, if it helps with the distributors, could you go back to the old model of a delay in selling the books on the Hero site? Maybe two weeks?

 

Good luck in this Jason, I really hope that it succeeds.

 

Norm.

[Pegasus40218]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

A couple of things that might help on the fantasy front:

- I tend to agree with whoever posted it that with the juggernaut of the genre (D&D) in disarray, there's an opportunity to gain significant market share at this time.

- I also agree with the poster (I believe it was Mallet) who recommended establishing a base Fantasy HERO power level. I'd recommend establishing that base at the low end of the power scale because I believe it's easier to add features / power to a game than it is to figure out how to scale things back.

- This may be a bit of nostalgia on my part, but I tend to lean AWAY from the idea of an all-in-one product. Look at how AD&D built its base: a relatively small Player's Handbook, a separate Gamemaster's Guide, and a bestiary. The Player's Handbook contained everything the players needed to know to create characters, including a relatively extensive list of spells. The Gamemaster's Guide had all of the information necessary to run the game, including a relatively extensive list of magic items and suggestions for other treasures. The bestiary provided access to statistics for the fundamental foes of fantasy (orcs, dragons, demons, devils, etc). From there, they started by providing pre-packaged adventures and eventually expanded into full campaign settings. Early in gaming, most campaigns were "immature" and weren't set in a specific setting (or the setting wasn't all that significant). Players could enjoy simply going through various adventures.

 

So, in summary, if I were trying to build the Fantasy HERO player base, I might look at putting together a player's guide that only contained the rules establishing basic power-level guidelines and rules for character creation. Then I'd put together a gamemaster's guide to provide GMs with the guidance necessary to run the game mechanics, how to scale the system UP to higher power levels, and maybe encapsulate some of the combined wisdom and experience from the forums on what works well and what doesn't. The bestiary already provided largely meets the needs of a basic Fantasy HERO game, and additional bestiaries could be created (perhaps even creating additional setting-specific bestiary supplements).

 

- As for the distribution issues, I don't know the details of the implications of Kickstarter vs. internal funding, but I can say that the ubiquitousness of e-book readers these days should not be ignored. In addition to making the products available on Amazon, I'd seriously look at putting together Kindle editions of the material. Providing the books on Kindle generally implies a slightly lower price point, lowering the cost of entry for any players who are "curious", but not willing to make a $40+ investment without knowing whether or not they'll even be able to use the system. For those players, the reputation (deserved or not) of HERO as a "complicated" system is often enough to deter them from making that initial investment...and I recommend the Kindle format (as opposed to just making PDFs available on the website) because the e-book reader's I've seen and used are terrible and handling PDFs (as far as navigating, searching, and managing multiple bookmarks).

[Balabanto]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

Pegasus, you're a genius.

[gojira]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

- This may be a bit of nostalgia on my part' date=' but I tend to lean AWAY from the idea of an all-in-one product. Look at how AD&D built its base: a relatively small Player's Handbook, a separate Gamemaster's Guide, and a bestiary. The Player's Handbook contained everything the players needed to know to create characters, including a relatively extensive list of spells. The Gamemaster's Guide had all of the information necessary to run the game, including a relatively extensive list of magic items and suggestions for other treasures.[/quote']

 

This is a neat idea and I totally agree. I doubt Hero Games is going to be able to produce two books in quick succession though.

 

I just happened to pull my old Castle Falkenstein book out of storage recently, and I noticed that it has the fluff and character creation in the first half of the book, and the GM stuff with more nitty-gritty detail in the second half of the book. I wonder if that layout would be useful for Fantasy Hero?

 

Put the background story, basic stat explanations, sample characters, templates, skill list, spell list, equipment list, complications, an example of how a turn goes, and sample NPCs (commoner, guard, minor official, horse) in the first half of the book. Then put the longer rules explanations, powers, sage advice for starting PC power levels, plot seeds for the given milieu, a few monsters, etc. in the second half of the book. It might be one way to get a player's handbook and GM's guide out in one shot.

[Ndreare]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

A couple of things that might help on the fantasy front:

- I tend to agree with whoever posted it that with the juggernaut of the genre (D&D) in disarray, there's an opportunity to gain significant market share at this time.

- I also agree with the poster (I believe it was Mallet) who recommended establishing a base Fantasy HERO power level. I'd recommend establishing that base at the low end of the power scale because I believe it's easier to add features / power to a game than it is to figure out how to scale things back.

- This may be a bit of nostalgia on my part, but I tend to lean AWAY from the idea of an all-in-one product. Look at how AD&D built its base: a relatively small Player's Handbook, a separate Gamemaster's Guide, and a bestiary. The Player's Handbook contained everything the players needed to know to create characters, including a relatively extensive list of spells. The Gamemaster's Guide had all of the information necessary to run the game, including a relatively extensive list of magic items and suggestions for other treasures. The bestiary provided access to statistics for the fundamental foes of fantasy (orcs, dragons, demons, devils, etc). From there, they started by providing pre-packaged adventures and eventually expanded into full campaign settings. Early in gaming, most campaigns were "immature" and weren't set in a specific setting (or the setting wasn't all that significant). Players could enjoy simply going through various adventures.

 

So, in summary, if I were trying to build the Fantasy HERO player base, I might look at putting together a player's guide that only contained the rules establishing basic power-level guidelines and rules for character creation. Then I'd put together a gamemaster's guide to provide GMs with the guidance necessary to run the game mechanics, how to scale the system UP to higher power levels, and maybe encapsulate some of the combined wisdom and experience from the forums on what works well and what doesn't. The bestiary already provided largely meets the needs of a basic Fantasy HERO game, and additional bestiaries could be created (perhaps even creating additional setting-specific bestiary supplements).

 

- As for the distribution issues, I don't know the details of the implications of Kickstarter vs. internal funding, but I can say that the ubiquitousness of e-book readers these days should not be ignored. In addition to making the products available on Amazon, I'd seriously look at putting together Kindle editions of the material. Providing the books on Kindle generally implies a slightly lower price point, lowering the cost of entry for any players who are "curious", but not willing to make a $40+ investment without knowing whether or not they'll even be able to use the system. For those players, the reputation (deserved or not) of HERO as a "complicated" system is often enough to deter them from making that initial investment...and I recommend the Kindle format (as opposed to just making PDFs available on the website) because the e-book reader's I've seen and used are terrible and handling PDFs (as far as navigating, searching, and managing multiple bookmarks).

 

Some great comments and I agree with the idea of making the document readily accessible to kindle or pdf users (in a reader friendly format). Although I disagree with the divided book angle. The impulse buy entry players will IMHO be discouraged by not having a complete game.

[CptPatriot]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

What if, in addition to the physical book, you offered a mini companion PDF with a small campaign setting to get them started? That way you can keep the cost of the book down and still give them something of a value add.

[Old Man]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

The distributors (and many retailers) are reluctant to purchase products that have been funded by Kickstarter projects because the Kickstarter has already "cored out" the potential audience for the project. We still offer Kickstarter products to distribution' date=' but they simply don't buy a lot of them. That's kind of how things are shaking out behind the scene in the industry: Kickstarter or distro. One or the other.[/quote']

 

I guess what throws me off about that is that I recently heard on NPR that companies that launch successful kickstarter projects often are able to sell the production rights to other companies, because those products have been shown to be so desirable that people are willing to pay up front for the vaporware version. That's for products in general though, so I can see how the game book industry might see things differently.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

This is a neat idea and I totally agree. I doubt Hero Games is going to be able to produce two books in quick succession though.

 

The bestiary already exists, even if only the PDF is in stock.

 

I just happened to pull my old Castle Falkenstein book out of storage recently, and I noticed that it has the fluff and character creation in the first half of the book, and the GM stuff with more nitty-gritty detail in the second half of the book. I wonder if that layout would be useful for Fantasy Hero?

 

Lucha Libre Hero is laid out the same way. Luchas in the front, Hero rules in the back.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

This is a neat idea and I totally agree. I doubt Hero Games is going to be able to produce two books in quick succession though.

 

I just happened to pull my old Castle Falkenstein book out of storage recently, and I noticed that it has the fluff and character creation in the first half of the book, and the GM stuff with more nitty-gritty detail in the second half of the book. I wonder if that layout would be useful for Fantasy Hero?

 

Put the background story, basic stat explanations, sample characters, templates, skill list, spell list, equipment list, complications, an example of how a turn goes, and sample NPCs (commoner, guard, minor official, horse) in the first half of the book. Then put the longer rules explanations, powers, sage advice for starting PC power levels, plot seeds for the given milieu, a few monsters, etc. in the second half of the book. It might be one way to get a player's handbook and GM's guide out in one shot.

 

Lucha Libre Hero is laid out the same way. Luchas in the front' date=' Hero rules in the back.[/quote']

 

That does seem like a format that would entice the casual shelf-browser.

 

 

The bestiary already exists' date=' even if only the PDF is in stock.[/quote']

 

That's an advantage Hero Games has if launching a new core book for a fantasy line. A big 6E creature book, and a big 6E spell book, already exist. If demand for print versions was there, it would just be a matter of reprinting them, or of pulling relevant sections out for a smaller book. And tons of other material has been written that could be updated to 6E with much less effort than writing all-new stuff.