Living in a sealed suit

[bigbywolfe]

Building a Mr. Freeze type character should be easy, but I've run into one issue with his defenses. Being inside a sealed suit there are many attacks that simply shouldn't affect him. The "sand in your eye" or martial "poke in the eye" Flash, and any power that requires skin contact are the first couple that come to mind but I'm sure there are a lot more. It seems to me extreme to buy, for example, enough Sight Flash Defense to counteract the campaign's max possible roll wih a limitation that states it only applies to things that would have to actually touch his eyes, especially since he will have little to no Dlash Defense otherwise. Doing that with every possible defense would be cost prohibitive, but only affects a very small number of characters. On one hand, many powers should probably have a limitation to represent the need to make contact and a few do, but I often see builds that don't include that sort of limitation. Is there a good way to do this? As GM it could just be hand-waved, but it seems too effective for that. On the other hand, building it with 100% Damage Reduction or individual limited Defenses seems way to costly for the effect in question

[Greywind]

Or just liberally apply common/cinematic sense based on concept/build negating specific attack maneuvers.

[bigbywolfe]

Or just liberally apply common/cinematic sense based on concept/build negating specific attack maneuvers.

True, but YGWYPF and YPFWYG. I acknowledged it could be hand waved as GM but I personally feel it is too useful for that and that there should be some cost involved.

 

Thanks for the input. Maybe I'm way off and everyone else will say to hand wave I also.

[psyber624]

The skin contact one is easy, just buy the "Impermeable" adder for your Resistant Protection. Its legal, costs 0 points (unless your GM disagrees) and covers skin contact.

 

Otherwise, honestly if someone is buying "poke you in the eye" type blindness powers then they should be built with the NND advantage and your armor would qualify to stop them. If they aren't buying them with the NND advantage then whatever they are saying is the "sfx" of the power doesn't matter so you shouldn't get any extra defense because of how you defined your armor. If you want to buy something to ENSURE that you can't be affected by those sorts of attacks then you have to pay for it just like every other power.

 

The key to remember here is that SFX do not innately grant you any bonuses or penalties against other powers in the HERO system. It may "feel" like they should from a common sense standpoint but if you are just buying your "sealed suit" as Resistant Defenses with the "Impermeable" adder then you ONLY get what the Game Effects of that armor are. Wanting to get extra defenses just because it "seems logical" is a violation of the tenants of the Hero System (which works from Game Effects not Special Effects). Of course you can hand wave it if you want to (its your game after all) but think about how that would affect other SFX for the power you are buying (your Resistant Defenses in this case).

[Greywind]

Or just liberally apply common/cinematic sense based on concept/build negating specific attack maneuvers.

I see it more as a matter of "how often do those maneuvers come into play?" In all the years I've been playing ('82) I've never seen anyone try throwing sand or sticking their fingers in someone else's eyes. So for me, the innate defense is offset by the rarity of the maneuvers themselves.

[bigbywolfe]

The skin contact one is easy, just buy the "Impermeable" adder for your Resistant Protection. Its legal, costs 0 points (unless your GM disagrees) and covers skin contact.

 

Otherwise, honestly if someone is buying "poke you in the eye" type blindness powers then they should be built with the NND advantage and your armor would qualify to stop them. If they aren't buying them with the NND advantage then whatever they are saying is the "sfx" of the power doesn't matter so you shouldn't get any extra defense because of how you defined your armor. If you want to buy something to ENSURE that you can't be affected by those sorts of attacks then you have to pay for it just like every other power.

 

The key to remember here is that SFX do not innately grant you any bonuses or penalties against other powers in the HERO system. It may "feel" like they should from a common sense standpoint but if you are just buying your "sealed suit" as Resistant Defenses with the "Impermeable" adder then you ONLY get what the Game Effects of that armor are. Wanting to get extra defenses just because it "seems logical" is a violation of the tenants of the Hero System (which works from Game Effects not Special Effects). Of course you can hand wave it if you want to (its your game after all) but think about how that would affect other SFX for the power you are buying (your Resistant Defenses in this case).

I don't need a lesson on how SFX and mechanics interact. I know mechanics trump SFX, that's why I asked how to build it.

 

I don't recall the Impermiable Adder and don't see it in the index. Could you give a page number?

 

EDIT: Found Impermiable in 6E1. It was CC that didn't list it in the index

[bigbywolfe]

So it seems Impermiable is the way to go and it is a +0 Adder, so that is a wash. Would the fact that the suit would also count as both "rigid" and "insulated" for NNDs (two defenses often applied to pressure point and other physical or to electric NNDs) be worth anything or is that also a zero point gain?

[Trebuchet]

So it seems Impermiable is the way to go and it is a +0 Adder' date=' so that is a wash. Would the fact that the suit would also count as both "rigid" and "insulated" for NNDs (two defenses often applied to pressure point and other physical or to electric NNDs) be worth anything or is that also a zero point gain?[/quote']

 

I'm not terribly familiar with Mr. Freeze, is his suit rigid and insulated against electricity? His suit always struck me as fairly thick cloth or rubberized cloth rather than rigid like Iron Man's armor. A Thermos vacuum container is insulated against cold and heat, but I wouldn't presume it would be proof against electrocution.

 

If it is insulated in those ways, then I'd say yes, it would provide defense against NND's of the appropriate type at no cost.

[bigbywolfe]

Good points Trebuchet. The version I was thinking of was definitely rigid, but I'm not sure why I was thinking insulated/non-conductive.

[Hyper-Man]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Freeze

http://comicsroots.webs.com/mr.%20freeze%203.jpg

[bigbywolfe]

Not actually about the suit but I don't want to start a new thread just for this.

 

How would you handle Mr. Freeze's immunity to cold? I mean, "Life Support: safe in intense cold" is a given, and a decent ED, possibly with extra only versus cold. But what about Drains, Entangles, and such based on cold SFX? Too bad, just live with it? Damage Negation and Damage Reduction can both represent Immunity using the Absolute Effect Rule, but both specifically only apply to damage, not other effects. There's the Desolidification option, but that would require hand-waving the part about buying "Affects Physical World" for everything else the character does, which as GM I could do, I just prefer to stick close to RAW.

 

Am I over thinking this?

[Lucius]

Just how immune is he? If I encase him in ice, is he not still entangled?

 

I would say if you invoke the Absolute Effect Rule it should cover Drains and so forth as well as STUN and BOD damage.

 

As for overthinking, remember the phrases "Common sense and dramatic sense."

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Absolute Palindromedary

[Ninja-Bear]

To the OP, sand in the eye and sand in the eye, usually these manueversare bought as NND and the defense is resistant def.

[psyber624]

Sorry bigbywolfe, should have checked who the poster was before making those comments. Since Rigid and Insulated are not actual abilities from the game I would say they qualify as SFX and therefore you can make your armor Rigid and Insulated just by saying it is. That doesn't give you any additional protection from things like Energy Blasts with an Electrical SFX, but as far as the NND goes I would say it applies if you define it that way beforehand. Just my opinion tho.

[bigbywolfe]

Thanks. Sorry if my earlier response came off as snappy.

[Beast]

I believe martial flash is a poke in the and is stopped by hard eye covering

now it it just the special effect

I use my hand to poke you in the eye

or just muss up your hair

or I spit in my hand and smear it on your face mask

or here's mud in your eye/face mask

these would be a HtH flash with many variant maneuvers so as to not have a limitation other than no range

[Beast]

Actually Mr Freeze's suit is all about protection from heat

he has protection from cold as a natural ability(if it was say 50 below zero he could run around naked as a jaybird)

he cannot stand normal temp it would kill him

the suit as a focus can be defined as rigid, of course it would also mean it cannot smush to get through tight places

[bigbywolfe]

Actually Mr Freeze's suit is all about protection from heat

he has protection from cold as a natural ability(if it was say 50 below zero he could run around naked as a jaybird)

he cannot stand normal temp it would kill him

the suit as a focus can be defined as rigid, of course it would also mean it cannot smush to get through tight places

Yup, I know all that. My questions about his immunity to cold were completely separate from my questions about his suit. I even said

Not actually about the suit but I don't want to start a new thread just for this.

in post 8.

[TheRealDeal]

Not too adept myself at actually building things yet, but if I were to model immunity to cold, I would think of a way to have something that allows me to "on the fly" create the exact counter to whatever is trying to affect me with a cold SFX. Aside from the Life Support thing which is the passive immunity to cold against passive effects, Maybe a triggered (when a cold SFX power would affect me), uncontrolled Dispel only against cold SFX powers, so it always triggers (and always resets instantly) even if not conscious, to Dispel any power used on me that is cold SFX. Maybe a VPP with the same trigger and only against cold SFX limit, that allows me to create the exact defense on the fly needed to counter the cold effect. That way as a GM rather than bother with actually trying to figure out what I create to counter it, I can just say "he has a cosmic VPP only against cold SFX and so stops whatever you sent at him" and hand wave it for speed of play. If I need to figure it out for some reason, I could, or have a few prebuilt defenses already designed.

[bigbywolfe]

Besides being cost prohibitive that would require a lot more hand waving than using the absolute effect rule for some other power

[psyber624]

Other than the desolid abiilty you mentioned I don't think there is another "catchall" power that would allow you to be immune to any cold-sfx powers. Personally I would Stick with Damage Reduction + PwD both with the only vs Cold limitations. As far as Entangles go it would be rather sticky because you might be immune to ones that have a "Freeze your body" type effect but "encased in ice" type entangles should still affect him normally (he can't just walk through ice because he is "immune" to the cold it generates).

 

Of course personally unless Cold powers were common in your game setting it wont be worth the points it costs so that is something I would probably just ignore in an actual game setting. If this is an homage character you aren't planning to play then points aren't really an issue so just use what you wish.

[Tasha]

Talking the Immunity to Cold. I don't think that anyone should have an immunity to Entangles. I doubt Mr Freeze frozen in an icecube would automatically make that go away. I could see the Human Torch with his always on Fire Damage Shield give him some immunity to being frozen in an ice cube, but not someone with Cold Powers.

 

As for the Power Defense Buy it to a decent level and Limit it to "Only vs cold". Also remember that in Hero people are never really "Immune" to anything but NND attacks of a certain Special Effect. So Flame person can't be totally immune to fire attacks, they can have extra defenses vs them, but not total immunity.

 

Sand/Poke in the Eye NNDs are bought as NND's so as long as he has hard eye coverings he's safe. If you need to you do more pick up the campaign Max for Sight flash def (only vs attacks the need soft cover and no skin touch buy it to 1.5x Campaign average of Flash or Drain (18 Flash Def/ or Power Def vs a very narrow type if attacks).

 

You need to talk to the GM of the game that the character will appear in. By doing that you will know if those attacks you are worried about need specific defenses or if the Special effect alone will be enough.

[Christopher]

Talking the Immunity to Cold. I don't think that anyone should have an immunity to Entangles. I doubt Mr Freeze frozen in an icecube would automatically make that go away. I could see the Human Torch with his always on Fire Damage Shield give him some immunity to being frozen in an ice cube' date=' but not someone with Cold Powers.[/quote']

Even just the Rules about Damage Shields and Entangles deal with that. The Entangle propably could be built with a weakness against Fire/Heat.

 

Regarding the actuall Question, I got to re-ask a earlier question:

Just how immune to Cold is he really?

So he walks around at -50 C without having a Chill? Life Support: Cold

But that only Covers "natural" or "weathereffect level" Coldness. It doesn't Cover "Supercoldness".

A Fireblast is very different from Heatstroke (or an actuall Fire). A Cold Blast is very different from a Frostbite.

 

 

One thing tht might cause a hickup is that there is a limited amount of Coldness that can be there. We know the cold-scala ends at -273.15 C/-Â’459.67 F/0 K (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_zero). Heat can easily go up to a million-bajillion degrees, but cold is kinda stopped at "300 below comfort level"

 

We don't question that just about any brick is immune to residual heat from a volkano or desert. But we don't asume he is also totally immune to being submersed in Lava! (body yeah, stun not nessesary)

The same way there is heat beyond +300 C in super settings that can be weaponized, there is cold way below -300 C that can be weaponized. And this could would be effective even against Mr. Freezes, who is immune to catching a cold.