Damage rules are rather confusing...please explain

[Theros]

I was requested to post my question to here too...so...

 

I did read damage rules several times from Champions Complete book. I think that those are rather hard to understand complicated. I understand that every attack does stun damage and dices that roll 2-5 inflict one point body damage and 6s inflict two points body damage. Then...right? When body goes to zero, then that character or opponent starts vleed to death (he loses body every phase or?).

 

Then...killing damage. How that is inflicted, how it is calculated? Of course killing damage (RKA?) goes through PD and ED. Only resistance will help to prevent damage.

 

Then question from DCs (damage classes)...that is rather confusing too. Why those are needed?

 

Is there any possibilties to ease that (now I am especially speaking from Champions campaign)?

[Killer Shrike]

Look at it the other way around.

 

Damage Classes are underlying mechanism of comparison that allows various kinds of attacks to be equated with each other for purposes of comparison, and also for aggregation where applicable (i.e...adding damage bonuses).

 

It's a useful abstraction to find equivalency across powers with different modifiers and special mechanics (such as Killing Attack).

 

 

Blast is basically the most pure damage dealing power; it's dice of effect are discrete (no STR adding to contend with), and each die of effect is 1 Damage Class. The idea of an attack simultaneously doing some STUN (transient knock you out effect) and BODY (residual kill you effect) damage is encapsulated into the face result == Stun, 0,2-5,6 => 0,1,2 == BODY model. This also means that each DC at base can be equated to 3.5 STUN and 1 BODY on average, with a low of 1 and 0 and a high of 6 and 2. This is called "normal" damage in the HERO System and is the default damage assumption. This is all nice and tidy and elegant.

 

Things quickly get less elegant.

 

Every 5 points of Strength bundles 1d6 "normal" damage, effectively with No Range applied to it (though you can throw things using Strength, so that gets a little muddled). Thus each 5 points of STR is equivalent to 1 DC. A bit more complicated, but still basically straightforward.

 

Hand Attack is basically the same thing as STR only for damage. Rather than be defined that way it gets it's own discrete power, but that's how it functions in the abstract. This is represented by a special discount (the Hand Attack Limitation) which is mechanically bogus as it makes HA's overpowered for their points, but is necessary from a relative value perspective because the Characteristic STR is underpriced (5 points of STR gives you 1d6 non-ranged normal damage, plus lifting, plus exert...and in earlier editions it gave you even more). Without a price break you'd only buy Hand Attack if you were at a stat maximum as it wouldn't be economical otherwise. This moved one problem (competitive pricing) into a different problem (you can get a lot of Damage Classes cheap with Hand Attack). Since Hand Attack adds to Strength damage, and also so do many Maneuvers and also some "weapons"...so you've now got a potential stacking problem. Thus, managing how these damage classes can aggregate becomes a thing.

 

In addition to normal damage, which is more likely to knock a target out than to kill them, the HERO System defines a more lethal form of damage...called Killing Attacks appropriately enough. We already know that 1 Damage Class averages to 3.5 STUN and 1 BODY. Killing Attack damage encapsulates 3 Damage Classes into each 1d6 effect, counts the face as BODY and uses a multiplier for the STUN...officially 1/2d6 in 6e (I use x3). This flips the average to 1.16~ BODY and 2 STUN and also allows multipliers to be used for things like Hit Locations. In earlier editions, the STUN multiple was random (1d6-1, generally); leading to what was called the "STUN Lottery" which made KA's more volatile. Note that the numbers between killing and normal damage don't look advantageous to Killing Attacks; the real lethality of KA's stems from the special exclusion that non-resistance defenses do not mitigate this kind of damage...and also if optional rules such as the Hit Location chart are in use.

 

As point of discussion, you could accomplish the same effect as Killing Attacks by just rolling 3d6 normal damage with a modifier such as "Killing" or "Lethal" that turned on the same special rule re resistant defense only. What the value of such an Advantage would be is open to debate, but that's a tangent for a different day. Anyway, that argument aside, with such an approach you'd lose the ability to play with the STUN multiples which would require the hit location concept to be reworked if you were using it.

 

The thing to take away from Killing Damage vis a vis Damage Classes is that 1d6 != 1 DC in all cases; in this case 1d6 == 3 Damage Classes. If you were trying to convert a normal damage bonus into killing damage you'd have to take this into account...for instance using a move by with a sword defined as a killing attack; you'd need to translate the damage bonus of the move by which is granted in increments of normal damage into killing damage.

 

Since 1d6 of Killing damage == 3 DC, it begs the question...how to represent +1 or +2 Damage Classes in terms of Killing damage? The rules say 1 DC of Killing == 1 BODY (often called a "pip" of damage), while 2 DC = 1/2d6 Killing damage (which is more predictable)...or optionally 1d6-1 (which has a wider range but is generally more advantageous).

 

You could also define a custom Power wherein 1d6 = 2 Damage Classes or 4 Damage Classes, or whatever and price it accordingly. Some Powers are already treated like this.

 

Anwyay, that's your basic set up. Then you get into edge cases. Martial Maneuver damage classes are discounted at 4 points each (basically 5 points with a -1/4 limitation "only for martial maneuvers"). Characters with STR, Martial Arts, and Hand Attacks or HKA's with modifiers can get complicated. Haymakers are interesting. And so forth.

 

The Damage Class rules in vol 2 cover the specifics of how to do the math and gets into how to deal with advantaged attacks and so forth, but hopefully some of the above was helpful.

 

 

You may also find this document useful:

 

Lethality Options

[Theros]

To be honest... I think that damage is not handled well enough in Hero System. It is too hard to explain and too hard to control everything. Ok...stun and body damage are easy enough....then comes other damage types. I think that it needs some sort of tweaking...

[Killer Shrike]

Tweak if you like, but before you tweak...have you actually played the game?

 

Personally, I've generally found it helpful to actually play something and become familiar with its default state before I decide to tweak it into something else or replace it.

 

The edge cases of the adding damage rules can get a bit wonky; but the typical...most common...use cases works well enough in practice.

[Drolyt]

To be honest... I think that damage is not handled well enough in Hero System. It is too hard to explain and too hard to control everything. Ok...stun and body damage are easy enough....then comes other damage types. I think that it needs some sort of tweaking...

 

What do you mean too hard to control? I'll admit that it can be complicated to explain and requires a bit of math at character creation, but in play it goes quite smoothly. Honestly, I think the biggest problem isn't the rules themselves but the presentation. I mean, I'm not even sure what "other damage types" you are talking about. Basically every effect either adds the dice or counts the body, but I don't blame you for finding it confusing.

 

Edit: Actually, a long time ago I asked a similar question on here about combining stun and body. I eventually realized the error of my ways, but if I wanted to be critical I would say that most of the responses were somewhat condescending and didn't actually help me any, which I don't think is great for HERO's reputation. If you could explain a little bit more what you don't like about how HERO handles damage I could maybe try to explain the logic behind it, because I've found that once you grok it a lot of things that seem strange or unintuitive are actually good game design.

[Greywind]

To be honest... I think that damage is not handled well enough in Hero System. It is too hard to explain and too hard to control everything. Ok...stun and body damage are easy enough....then comes other damage types. I think that it needs some sort of tweaking...

What "other damage types"?

[Theros]

Thank you from your answers and don't get me wrong. I really like from Hero System, flexibility and the choices that can be done in this system. It is shame that I did not find this system earlier, but in the other hand I played and GMd other very good games during the last 20 years. This is like to edged sword...but now to the point.

 

I think that it is hard to control when there are three types of damage. Stun, body and RKA. Well...that is the hardest part.

 

When character with STR 20 attack bare handedly against his opponent. He does 4d6 stun damage. That is clear. Then he rolls the dices and gets 3, 4, 1, 6 = 14 points of stun damage. That is clear too, then attack inflicts 4 points body damage, no problem with that. For the next strike character wields weapon...lets say shotgun. He shoots with shotgun that does 6d6 damage. He rolls damage and gets= 1, 1, 2, 5, 6, 6 = 21 RKA damage (right, as it is weapon)?

 

With examples I try to explain? I need rule of thumb that can be used in 95% of the cases as to remind when to use RKA, when "normal" stun damage. I see for example that Power Blast inflicts 6d6 damage, but it is stun damage (right), but some weapon inflicts 6d6 RKA damage. No need to buy some extra things with CPs right?

 

Currently I find hero system damage complicate and it leaves me more questions than answers. From first answer to my post I figured out some points, but still I find it confusing. I have played and GMd crunchy games like Rolemaster (for 20 years), but this leaves me bit confused.

 

In every other game attack basically inflicts lethal damage and it can be converted to subduing (Stun) damage if wanted. That is simple and very easy to understand. In Hero System damage is inflicted basically in three different forms. Did I express myself clear enough?

[Christopher]

Normal Damage:

BODY is counted using the 0, 2-5, 6 Rule. All PD or ED (depending on the attack) works against it.

STUN is just the sum of the dice.

Without advantages, 1 Dice Normal Damage equals 1 DC

This damage is designed to knock out and stun the foes, not kill them. The BODY is easily blocked by Defenses. If you use Mental Blast or add AVAD/NND advantages, there is no BODY at all.

 

Killing Damage:

BODY is the sum of the dice. Only resistant Defenses prevent "Killing BODY" damage.

STUN is either BODY times 1d3 or BODY times the hit location multiplier. All PD applies to the STUN damage (there is no "killing STUN")

Without advantages, 1d6 KA equals 3 DC.

This damage is designed to cause BODY even in the face of high normal (non-resistant) Defenses and resistant Defense. You need to apply an advantage to your defense prevent the body at all.

 

Damage in Superheroics:

The default rules and examples asume, that Normal Damage is the way of fighting in Superheroic games. 12-24 PD make you practically immune to the BODY and taking BODY damage is not supposed to happen to characters.

Killing Attacks are used primarily to Break Foci, Entangles, Barriers and the ocassional Demon/Robot/Zombie that is not considered "alive" for the genre convention of "No Killing". The reason KA is used at all in superheroics is propably because the SFX for gun/sword doesn't seem logical to cause normal damage. They are not supposed to be used against other characters.

 

Damage in heroic games:

Default rules and exampels asume that Killing Damage is the way of fighting. While enemies may be stunned, it is more likely for them to die from bloodloss or by hitting negative BODY.

Normal damage is used when the attack has no reason to cause killing damage. A tavern Brawl, many blunt weapons.

 

Why DC exist:

They make it easy to add damage to a wide variaty of attacks with a single, unified approach. Wheter you Haymaker your Blast, your Swordswing, your Healing, Your drain or your Flash, the effect is the samge: +4 Damage Classes. For a KA this would be 1 1/3 dice more. For a Blast it would be 4 Normal damage Dice more. For a power that costs 10 CP/Die, it would be 2 dies more.

Another interestign case is the "Killing Strike" Martial Arts Maneuver. It allows you to take a normal Damage attacks DC, add a few DC and have the result expressed as Killing Damage: 4d6 HTH-Attack + 2d6 Normal Damage from STR + 3 DC from the Killings strike make a 3d6 KA. 3d6 KA = 9 DC. 4 DC + 2 DC + 3 DC = 9 DC.

[Matt Holck]

It is important to note that characters have defenses that reduce or cancels any damage taken

I player with 12 points of physical kill resistance can bounce off its chest.

 

Champion number are logarithmic in that

each point of damage represent a doubling of the mass damage inflicted

1 damage beaks one porcelain pot

2 damage beaks two porcelain pots

3 damage beaks four porcelain pots

4 damage beaks eight porcelain pots

[Drolyt]

Did I express myself clear enough?

Yes, but I think you are confused about the types of damage. Let me try to explain. There are two types of damage, body and stun, which are similar to but not identical to D&D's lethal and nonlethal/subdual damage. The bid difference is that while in D&D you usually deal one or the other, in HERO you usually have a chance of doing both. Now there are two types of basic attacks, normal and killing. With a normal attack you roll the dice, add them up to find the stun you deal. Then count each dice where you get 2-5, that is 1 body, each dice that rolls a 6 is 2 body. Then you subtract the target's defenses. For example, if you rolled 4d6, rolling 1, 6, 3, and 4, you would deal 14 stun and 4 body. If the target had 6 normal defense and 3 resistant defense, they would take 5 stun and no body (nromal attacks rarely deal body damage). Remember that both normal and resistant defense apply to normal attacks, with normal defense basically representing how tough and resistant you are to damage and resistant defense representing actual armor of some sort, whether that be plate armor, a force field, superhuman skin, or something else.

 

Time for a new paragraph. With a killing attack you roll the dice and add them up to find the body damage, then roll 1/2d6 and multiply the result by the body damage to find the stun damage. Then you subtract the target's defenses, but remember, the stun damage done by a killing attack is reduced by both normal and resistant defenses, but the killing damage is reduced only by resistant defenses. For example, consider a 4d6 killing attack where again you roll 1,6, 3, and 4, and you also roll a 2 on the 1/2d6. That would be 14 body and 28 stun. If the target had the same defenses, 6 normal and 3 resistant, they would take 19 stun and 11 body, and would likely be bleeding to death.

 

As you can see, a killing attack that does the same number of dice as a normal attack is far more powerful. Thus we need a comparison, damage classes. The DC of a normal attack is how many dice it does, while the DC of a killing attack is 3 times how many dice it does. Given a normal attack and a killing attack of the same DC (say, 12d6 normal attack and 4d6 killing attack), the two attacks are roughly equal in effectiveness but the normal attack does more stun while the killing attack does more body.

 

There are ways to change how the damage is counted through different power advantages and limitations, and different powers, leading to a few more types of attacks. For example, a mental attack only does stun damage (you add up the dice to find out how much stun you do), but the only defense that applies is mental defense. The DC of a mental attack is 2 times the number of dice. These attacks are really good at knocking people out if they don't have mental defense.

 

Alright, I have to go, tell me if that helped at all.

[Killer Shrike]

Thank you from your answers and don't get me wrong. I really like from Hero System, flexibility and the choices that can be done in this system. It is shame that I did not find this system earlier, but in the other hand I played and GMd other very good games during the last 20 years. This is like to edged sword...but now to the point.

 

I think that it is hard to control when there are three types of damage. Stun, body and RKA. Well...that is the hardest part.

 

When character with STR 20 attack bare handedly against his opponent. He does 4d6 stun damage. That is clear. Then he rolls the dices and gets 3, 4, 1, 6 = 14 points of stun damage. That is clear too, then attack inflicts 4 points body damage, no problem with that. For the next strike character wields weapon...lets say shotgun. He shoots with shotgun that does 6d6 damage. He rolls damage and gets= 1, 1, 2, 5, 6, 6 = 21 RKA damage (right, as it is weapon)?

 

With examples I try to explain? I need rule of thumb that can be used in 95% of the cases as to remind when to use RKA, when "normal" stun damage. I see for example that Power Blast inflicts 6d6 damage, but it is stun damage (right), but some weapon inflicts 6d6 RKA damage. No need to buy some extra things with CPs right?

 

Currently I find hero system damage complicate and it leaves me more questions than answers. From first answer to my post I figured out some points, but still I find it confusing. I have played and GMd crunchy games like Rolemaster (for 20 years), but this leaves me bit confused.

 

In every other game attack basically inflicts lethal damage and it can be converted to subduing (Stun) damage if wanted. That is simple and very easy to understand. In Hero System damage is inflicted basically in three different forms. Did I express myself clear enough?

Two forms....Normal and Killing. Not 3.

 

And this is harmonious with the two underlying damage tracking stats, STUN and BODY.

 

Normal damage is better at depleting STUN but still does some Body.

Killing damage is better at depleting BODY but still does some Stun.

 

The HERO System also differentiates between physical and energy damage; thus a character might be punch resistant but not fire resistant or vice versa (etc).

 

normal DEF (PD / ED, etc) works vs normal damage but not killing Body.

resistant DEF works vs both normal and killing damage.

 

 

 

 

Also, the thing you might be missing is that 1d6 killing and 3d6 normal have the same base cost...15 points...and are both 3 damage classes.

 

If you are looking at a xd6 Normal damage attack and thinking it converts into the same # of d6 of a Killing damage attack...it doesn't. Divide by 3. Vice versa, if looking at a Killing attack and thinking it converts into the same # of d6 of Normal damage multiply by 3.

 

A 2d6 killing attack is equivalent to a 6d6 normal attack and vice versa.

 

Also, as an aside, you generally would not see a 6d6k shotgun...that's 18 damage classes. Depending on how the shotgun was built, somewhere between 1 1/2d6 to MAYBE 3d6 at the high end (maybe a slug) would be more typical in the usual campaign...though you could go higher or lower if you wanted to for some reason. Also, as a tangent, people sometimes do No Range Explosion cones or similar "scattershot" approaches for some shotguns...but that's an aside.

 

If you look at the printed gear lists in the official supplements most guns hover a bit above or below 2d6 killing, and while you aren't required to use those lists if you prefer to define your own weapons, its still a decent guide for what levels of damage are generally assumed by the rules.

[Lucius]

 

I think that it is hard to control when there are three types of damage. Stun, body and RKA. Well...that is the hardest part.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "hard to control."

 

As for damage types: RKA or HKA, the Killing Attacks, do not a different type of damage; they still do BOD and STUN damage just like "Normal" Attacks. They're called "Normal" because they're normal for comic book games - in most other kinds of game, it's the Killing Attacks that are really "normal."

 

It's also been pointed out that there is a distinction between physical damage, like hitting someone with a fist, and energy damage, like setting them on fire. Personally, about 99% of the characters I make have Energy Defense and Physical Defense identical, precisely so that I never have to think about that distinction. I suggest you do the same, it keeps things simpler.

 

When character with STR 20 attack bare handedly against his opponent. He does 4d6 stun damage. That is clear. Then he rolls the dices and gets 3' date=' 4, 1, 6 = 14 points of stun damage. That is clear too, then attack inflicts 4 points body damage, no problem with that. [/quote']

 

Sounds like you understand Normal damage perfectly.

 

For the next strike character wields weapon...lets say shotgun. He shoots with shotgun that does 6d6 damage. He rolls damage and gets= 1, 1, 2, 5, 6, 6 = 21 RKA damage (right, as it is weapon)?

 

The point is not that it's a weapon. The point is that it is Killing Damage. A baseball bat is a weapon (or could be used as one) but in many games would do Normal Damage. An animal using teeth or claws isn't using a weapon, but is likely to be doing Killing Damage.

 

The far larger point is that you have not finished when you count up the numbers on the dice. This tells you how much BOD the attack did. Now you determine how much STUN it did. If you're not using Hit Locations, you roll 1/2 d6 to get a number from 1 to 3. Then you multiply that number by the BOD damage done. Your shotgun did 21 BOD and may have done 21 STUN, 42 STUN, or 63 STUN.

 

Another important point is that no ordinary shotgun is going to do that many dice of Killing Damage. Artillery may do that much Killing Damage. Not shotguns.

 

 

With examples I try to explain? I need rule of thumb

 

Rule of thumb: use Normal Damage. If you're doing superheroes, you can even have guns and knives do Normal Damage and it should work. Just remember that if it's listed on a weapons table as doing, say, 1 1/2 d6 damage, you should approximately triple that and let it do 4 or 5 dice of Normal Damage.

 

If you're not doing superheroes, a good rule of thumb is that unarmed attacks, clubs, and rocks do Normal Damage and most weapons do Killing.

 

Another important rule of thumb is to remember that a die of Killing Damage is about equal to THREE dice of Normal Damage.

 

that can be used in 95% of the cases as to remind when to use RKA' date=' when "normal" stun damage. I see for example that Power Blast inflicts 6d6 damage, but it is stun damage (right), but some weapon inflicts 6d6 RKA damage. No need to buy some extra things with CPs right?[/quote']

 

Okay, I don't know what you mean by "no need to buy some extra things with CPs?" I think you better explain it before I even try to address it. If I guess at your meaning I'll probably be wrong.

 

Currently I find hero system damage complicate and it leaves me more questions than answers. From first answer to my post I figured out some points, but still I find it confusing. I have played and GMd crunchy games like Rolemaster (for 20 years), but this leaves me bit confused.

 

In every other game attack basically inflicts lethal damage and it can be converted to subduing (Stun) damage if wanted. That is simple and very easy to understand. In Hero System damage is inflicted basically in three different forms. Did I express myself clear enough?

 

Well, basically, no it's not three different forms. But yes, almost every attack will have a chance to do "lethal" and "subdual" damage both.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

​The palindromedary wants to know what kind of game you want to run - did you say Champions, meaning comic book superhero type adventure?

[Theros]

 

 

 

Okay, I don't know what you mean by "no need to buy some extra things with CPs?" I think you better explain it before I even try to address it. If I guess at your meaning I'll probably be wrong.

 

 

 

​The palindromedary wants to know what kind of game you want to run - did you say Champions, meaning comic book superhero type adventure?

 

This one needs explanation. Ok, I did write it wrong, but I'll explain with more details. If you buy superpower for some character, that inflicts 5d6 damage (lets say blast). That damage is treated as Normal Damage (?). Then...if player wants he can buy some adders (I don't remember which was the name of addition that should be bought to power) which chance damage so that character will inflict killing damage instead? Right?

 

So in basic forms, weapons are inflicting killing damage. Other attacks like Blast spell, rocks, throwing character through the stone wall etc... inflict Normal Damage?

[psyber624]

Another thing to remember is that this game works by GAME MECHANICS, not by SFX. It doesn't matter whatsoever what you CALL a power, or how it is logically, theoretically, etc supposed to work, but how its built in the game.

 

One guy might build a Pistol as a 2d6 RKA, another might build it as a 6d6 Blast. They might both be called Pistol but all that matters is how the power is built. If you are using prebuilt equipment there is always a column that tells you what type of damage it uses the way it is built for THAT build.

[Chris Goodwin]

Maybe a better way to explain it:

 

There are two different stats for tracking damage: Body and Stun.

 

There are two different mechanics for rolling damage: normal and killing.

 

There are two different overall special effects for damage: physical and energy.

 

Stun vs. Body is indeed like the distinction many other games make between nonlethal and lethal damage; in HERO we just track it using two different stats.

 

Does this help?

[Drolyt]

 

This one needs explanation. Ok, I did write it wrong, but I'll explain with more details. If you buy superpower for some character, that inflicts 5d6 damage (lets say blast). That damage is treated as Normal Damage (?). Then...if player wants he can buy some adders (I don't remember which was the name of addition that should be bought to power) which chance damage so that character will inflict killing damage instead? Right?

 

So in basic forms, weapons are inflicting killing damage. Other attacks like Blast spell, rocks, throwing character through the stone wall etc... inflict Normal Damage?

 

There is no advantage you can buy to make a blast do killing damage, you should buy a ranged killing attack instead. A power, such as a fireball, can usually be built as either a blast or a ranged killing attack, the difference is how you envision the power, is it meant to stun, or to kill? The type of campaign also matters, in superhero campaigns most attacks are bought as blasts even if they seem like they should be very deadly because that fits the genre conventions. Conversely, most weapon examples are built with killing attacks because weapons are meant to be deadly (the primary purpose of a gun or sword is not to knock you unconcious).

[Greywind]

 

 

 

Okay, I don't know what you mean by "no need to buy some extra things with CPs?" I think you better explain it before I even try to address it. If I guess at your meaning I'll probably be wrong.

 

 

 

​The palindromedary wants to know what kind of game you want to run - did you say Champions, meaning comic book superhero type adventure?

 

This one needs explanation. Ok, I did write it wrong, but I'll explain with more details. If you buy superpower for some character, that inflicts 5d6 damage (lets say blast). That damage is treated as Normal Damage (?). Then...if player wants he can buy some adders (I don't remember which was the name of addition that should be bought to power) which chance damage so that character will inflict killing damage instead? Right?

 

So in basic forms, weapons are inflicting killing damage. Other attacks like Blast spell, rocks, throwing character through the stone wall etc... inflict Normal Damage?

It depends on the nature of the weapon. Clubs tend to Normal damage. Bullets, blades and whatnot tend to be killing.

[Theros]

I think that I am getting to rules bit by bit...this seems to be hard to change mindset to this kind of rules.

 

Ok...let me know if I got this point right:

 

If character has STR 20. When he punches he rolls 4d6, his DC is 4. Causes stun damage and dices determine what will be the body damage.

 

Then character decides to use club. Lets say that club has damage class 4 (4d6 damage). As club won't do killing damage character with STR 20 will inflict 8 DCs damage...in this case it should be checked from the certain table (?).

 

Then...character will start to use sword. Sword does killing damage of 2d6. In killing damage Normal Damage DC is divided by 3. Then Character has DC 1 to killing damage. In this case Damage of sword will increase by one DC (lets say that 2d6 is DC 4, so it will increase to DC 5, where damage is 2d6+1). Right?

 

Then comes question that confuses me.

 

If character wil club wants to inflict killing damage (it is possible to kill with club). He divides Club DC by 3, when it is 1, then adds his characters strenght DC for killing damage, which is 1. Total of 2 DC, which is... xDC (I dont't have book with me).

 

Is that right?

[Hyper-Man]

I think that I am getting to rules bit by bit...this seems to be hard to change mindset to this kind of rules.

 

Ok...let me know if I got this point right:

 

If character has STR 20. When he punches he rolls 4d6, his DC is 4. Causes stun damage and dices determine what will be the body damage.

 

Then character decides to use club. Lets say that club has damage class 4 (4d6 damage). As club won't do killing damage character with STR 20 will inflict 8 DCs damage...in this case it should be checked from the certain table (?).

 

Then...character will start to use sword. Sword does killing damage of 2d6. In killing damage Normal Damage DC is divided by 3. Then Character has DC 1 to killing damage. In this case Damage of sword will increase by one DC (lets say that 2d6 is DC 4, so it will increase to DC 5, where damage is 2d6+1). Right?

 

Then comes question that confuses me.

 

If character wil club wants to inflict killing damage (it is possible to kill with club). He divides Club DC by 3, when it is 1, then adds his characters strenght DC for killing damage, which is 1. Total of 2 DC, which is... xDC (I dont't have book with me).

 

Is that right?

 

To answer your club example question we need to know what kind of campaign this is for.

IF it is for a supers level campaign (Champions) the club would cost character points and would add straight damage as in your example.

IF it is for a heroic level campaign then weapons equipment doesn't cost points but does usually have a STR minimum to use effectively. The character only gets to add any STR exceeding this minimum to the HTH weapon's based damage. So if a club had a STR minimum of 10 a 20 STR character would get to add 10 STR to the damage for a total of 6 Damage Classes which would be 6d6 Normal Damage.

 

Sword example:

A 2d6 Hand To Hand Killing attack is a 6 Damage Class attack.

If supers and a 20 STR the total damage would 10 DC (Damage Classes) which is 3d6+1 Killing Damage.

If heroic (non-supers), then any STR in excess of the STR minimum to use the HTH Killing Weapon would add +1 DC per 5 points of STR.

 

Killing Damage

1 DC (Damage Class) = 1 Point of Killing Damage

2 DC = 1/2d6K or 1d6-1K

3 DC = 1d6K

4 DC = 1d6+1K

etc...

 

Normal Damage

1 Damage Class = 1d6 Normal Damage

2 DC = 2d6N

3 DC = 3d6N

etc...

 

While it is possible to convert some killing damage weapons to normal damage (like hitting with the "flat" side of a sword) it is not normally possible to convert a normal damage weapon to killing damage. There is not currently a power advantage in the rules that allows this (however, some posters have used house rules to this purpose).

 

HM

[Matt Holck]

Maybe a better way to explain it:

 

There are two different stats for tracking damage: Body and Stun.

 

There are two different mechanics for rolling damage: normal and killing.

 

There are two different overall special effects for damage: physical and energy.

 

Stun vs. Body is indeed like the distinction many other games make between nonlethal and lethal damage; in HERO we just track it using two different stats.

 

Does this help?

 

yes

[Killer Shrike]

I think that I am getting to rules bit by bit...this seems to be hard to change mindset to this kind of rules.

 

Ok...let me know if I got this point right:

 

If character has STR 20. When he punches he rolls 4d6, his DC is 4. Causes stun damage and dices determine what will be the body damage.

Right

 

Then character decides to use club. Lets say that club has damage class 4 (4d6 damage). As club won't do killing damage character with STR 20 will inflict 8 DCs damage...

Right

 

in this case it should be checked from the certain table (?).

Wrong - there is no table to be checked.

 

Then...character will start to use sword. Sword does killing damage of 2d6. In killing damage Normal Damage DC is divided by 3. Then Character has DC 1 to killing damage.

Wrong. Each 1d6 of killing damage is 3 DC. Thus a 2d6 killing attack is 6 DC.

 

In this case Damage of sword will increase by one DC (lets say that 2d6 is DC 4, so it will increase to DC 5, where damage is 2d6+1). Right?

Wrong. This will vary based on the Strength Minimum* of the Sword; but assuming there isn't one the character's STR 20 (4 DC) plus the "Swords" 2d6k (6 DC) adds together to be a 3d6+1 killing (10 DC) attack. This will typically do around 12 BODY and 24 STUN on average (minus any relevant defenses).

 

*Strength Minimum is a concept that I would explain, but wont right now as it will probably confuse you more.

 

Then comes question that confuses me.

 

If character wil club wants to inflict killing damage (it is possible to kill with club). He divides Club DC by 3, when it is 1, then adds his characters strenght DC for killing damage, which is 1. Total of 2 DC, which is... xDC (I dont't have book with me).

 

Is that right?

No, its categorically wrong. The 4d6N damage club + STR 20 = 8d6N attack already does 8 BODY and 28 STUN on average. You don't convert the club to do killing damage on the fly. It's not a killing attack, the club is a normal damage attack. The thing to understand is that "normal damage" inflicts both STUN and BODY, just as "killing damage" does.

 

The main difference between them is the ratio; compared to each other on average "normal damage" does more STUN than BODY per DC and "killing damage" does more BODY than STUN per DC.

[Killer Shrike]

I think that I am getting to rules bit by bit...this seems to be hard to change mindset to this kind of rules.

 

Ok...let me know if I got this point right:

 

If character has STR 20. When he punches he rolls 4d6, his DC is 4. Causes stun damage and dices determine what will be the body damage.

Right

 

Then character decides to use club. Lets say that club has damage class 4 (4d6 damage). As club won't do killing damage character with STR 20 will inflict 8 DCs damage...

Right

 

in this case it should be checked from the certain table (?).

Wrong - there is no table to be checked.

 

Then...character will start to use sword. Sword does killing damage of 2d6. In killing damage Normal Damage DC is divided by 3. Then Character has DC 1 to killing damage.

Wrong. Each 1d6 of killing damage is 3 DC. Thus a 2d6 killing attack is 6 DC.

 

In this case Damage of sword will increase by one DC (lets say that 2d6 is DC 4, so it will increase to DC 5, where damage is 2d6+1). Right?

Wrong. This will vary based on the Strength Minimum* of the Sword; but assuming there isn't one the character's STR 20 (4 DC) plus the "Swords" 2d6k (6 DC) adds together to be a 3d6+1 killing (10 DC) attack. This will typically do around 12 BODY and 24 STUN on average (minus any relevant defenses).

 

*Strength Minimum is a concept that I would explain, but wont right now as it will probably confuse you more.

 

Then comes question that confuses me.

 

If character wil club wants to inflict killing damage (it is possible to kill with club). He divides Club DC by 3, when it is 1, then adds his characters strenght DC for killing damage, which is 1. Total of 2 DC, which is... xDC (I dont't have book with me).

 

Is that right?

No, its categorically wrong. The 4d6N damage club + STR 20 = 8d6N attack already does 8 BODY and 28 STUN on average. You don't convert the club to do killing damage on the fly. It's not a killing attack, the club is a normal damage attack. The thing to understand is that "normal damage" inflicts both STUN and BODY, just as "killing damage" does.

 

The main difference between them is the ratio; compared to each other on average "normal damage" does more STUN than BODY per DC and "killing damage" does more BODY than STUN per DC.

And put simply...if you want to KILL use a killing attack. If you want to KNOCKOUT use a normal attack. But even so, a killing attack can knockout and a normal attack can kill.

[Killer Shrike]

I think that I am getting to rules bit by bit...this seems to be hard to change mindset to this kind of rules.

 

Ok...let me know if I got this point right:

 

If character has STR 20. When he punches he rolls 4d6, his DC is 4. Causes stun damage and dices determine what will be the body damage.

 

Then character decides to use club. Lets say that club has damage class 4 (4d6 damage). As club won't do killing damage character with STR 20 will inflict 8 DCs damage...in this case it should be checked from the certain table (?).

 

Then...character will start to use sword. Sword does killing damage of 2d6. In killing damage Normal Damage DC is divided by 3. Then Character has DC 1 to killing damage. In this case Damage of sword will increase by one DC (lets say that 2d6 is DC 4, so it will increase to DC 5, where damage is 2d6+1). Right?

 

Then comes question that confuses me.

 

If character wil club wants to inflict killing damage (it is possible to kill with club). He divides Club DC by 3, when it is 1, then adds his characters strenght DC for killing damage, which is 1. Total of 2 DC, which is... xDC (I dont't have book with me).

 

Is that right?

 

To answer your club example question we need to know what kind of campaign this is for.

IF it is for a supers level campaign (Champions) the club would cost character points and would add straight damage as in your example.

IF it is for a heroic level campaign then weapons equipment doesn't cost points but does usually have a STR minimum to use effectively. The character only gets to add any STR exceeding this minimum to the HTH weapon's based damage. So if a club had a STR minimum of 10 a 20 STR character would get to add 10 STR to the damage for a total of 6 Damage Classes which would be 6d6 Normal Damage.

 

Sword example:

A 2d6 Hand To Hand Killing attack is a 6 Damage Class attack.

If supers and a 20 STR the total damage would 10 DC (Damage Classes) which is 3d6+1 Killing Damage.

If heroic (non-supers), then any STR in excess of the STR minimum to use the HTH Killing Weapon would add +1 DC per 5 points of STR.

 

Killing Damage

1 DC (Damage Class) = 1 Point of Killing Damage

2 DC = 1/2d6K or 1d6-1K

3 DC = 1d6K

4 DC = 1d6+1K

etc...

 

Normal Damage

1 Damage Class = 1d6 Normal Damage

2 DC = 2d6N

3 DC = 3d6N

etc...

 

While it is possible to convert some killing damage weapons to normal damage (like hitting with the "flat" side of a sword) it is not normally possible to convert a normal damage weapon to killing damage. There is not currently a power advantage in the rules that allows this (however, some posters have used house rules to this purpose).

 

HM

Just saw this post, but +1

[psyber624]

The chart confusion was probably my fault. If you are using a weapon from a list in the book (such as the one on pg 204 of 6e2) in there it will tell you whether that weapon example was built as a Killing attack or as a Normal Damage attack (different lists do it differently). This is normally only used in Heroic level campaigns where your players routinely obtain and use weapons they find/purchase. In a Supers campaign any "weapons" are built as powers and weapon is just the special effect of the power.

 

The whole idea behind Damage Classes (DC's) is that they are designed so that different powers, built different ways, can be added and subtracted to fairly by other powers (STR is a prime example of this).

 

Things can get REALLY complicated when you start using Advantage'd powers and calculating DC's but for the most part just remember that (again UNADVANTAGED) 1d6 of Normal Damage is 1 DC, 1d6 of Killing Damage is 3 DC. The power/ability you are using will tell you whether you are using Killing Damage or Normal Damage, then you add any DC's from Strength or Maneuvers or Combat Skill Levels or whatever. Once you know the total DC's you have in your power you can quickly see how many dice to roll, but remember whether its Killing Dice or Normal Dice depends ENTIRELY on the power used and not on whats added to it. In the case of a Weapon the Weapon is the "Power".

 

And yes, clubs can kill. Clubs are normally built with Normal Damage but even Normal Damage does Body (which is what determines if you die from an attack) so a strong enough Normal Damage attack can quite easily kill someone without defenses (a common problem for High powered heroes when you add normals into a fight). Just because an attack does Normal Damage doesn't mean it can't be deadly. Killing Attacks are called that because they are generally INTENDED to kill and are far better at it than Normal Attacks (They average slightly higher Body Damage per DC and ignore non-resistant defenses).

[Christopher]

No' date=' its categorically wrong. The 4d6N damage club + STR 20 = 8d6N attack already does 8 BODY and 28 STUN on average. You don't convert the club to do killing damage on the fly. It's not a killing attack, the club is a normal damage attack. The thing to understand is that "normal damage" inflicts both STUN [i']and[/i] BODY, just as "killing damage" does.

 

The main difference between them is the ratio; compared to each other on average "normal damage" does more STUN than BODY per DC and "killing damage" does more BODY than STUN per DC.

Another important difference is what Defense stop the BODY Damage dealt by either.

Killing Attacks need less Dice for comparable effect, both because they they produce more BODY/dice and because fewer defenses apply. The usual comparsion between the two is the example of two 12 DC attacks:

12D6 Normal Damage:

0-24 BODY, 12 BODY average. Resistant and Non-Resistant ("Normal") Defenses work

12-72 STUN, 42 STUN average. Resistant and Normal Defense work

 

4d6 Killing Damage:

4-24 BODY, 14 BODY average. Only Resistant defenses work

4-72 STUN, 28 STUN average. Resistant and Normal defenses work

 

While the maximum values for both attacks are identical, the averages varry strongly. KA's BODY is also more worth by there being fewer resistant defenses then normal Defenses around.

 

Wheter these 12 DC come from the raw power of the attack (a 12 DC Blast, 4D6 RKA), a power that allwos STR to be added (9D6 HTH-Attack, 3D6 KA plus 3 DC from STR), Maneuvers (a 8 DC Blast or 3.5d6 RKA Haymakered) or a combination of those is irrelevant.

 

Regarding conversion between Normal and Killing Damage:

With the optional rules it is possible to make a Killing Damage Attack into a Normal Damage Attack using the "Club Weapon" Maneuver (6E2 84; Examples include "Striking with Flat side of blade"). This has nothing to do with Clubs or how they are build.

It is not possible to make Normal Damage into Killing Damage*. However if you can let STR add to the Damage of something that is already a Killing Attack.

 

*Martial Arts killing Attack is the exception, but it is rarely used for anything but your raw STR/unarmed combat anyway.