I wonder how many have stopped using Champions/HERO for similar reasons to this?

[Hyper-Man]

From a thread on RPGnet: Searching for a new superhero RPG. HELP!

 

I am an experienced superhero gamer. I've played most of the big name superhero games. But I have always run into the continual spiral of complexity in character generation. It honestly has become frustrating. So I'm going to make a list of superhero games I am fluent with, explaining one by one my issues.

 

Hero System/Champions.

 

This is the game I have the most experience with. And the main problem with it, is that character generation can become consumed by serious amounts of complication. So much that it can be off-putting to even gamers who have serious experience with it.

 

My issue with it is this: It's become too much for me to handle. Both as a player and a GM.

 

I don't want to spend my time fiddling around with the complexities and intricacies of Hero System character generation on a regular basis.

 

Mutants & Masterminds

 

While somewhat less complex in its character generation than the Hero System. It still carries a serious level of complication in its character creation One can become just as bogged down by its character generation. And as much as I love M&M, I think it's also too much for me.

 

Capes, Cowls, And Villains Foul

 

This game I bought recently from RPGNow. And even though the book is less than a couple of hundred pages long, the complexity of its character creation system is quite high. So much that I almost immediately became lost by it. And it hasn't gotten any better with successive readings.

 

I bought this game wanting to like this game. But I'm just totally lost with it.

 

Marvel Superheroes Game (FASERP)

 

This was the first superhero RPG I got involved with. My very first. And it interested me because of the license. I was a huge Marvel Comics fan back in the day.

 

My problem with it? Only option is random character creation. There is no "point buy" system to build your own characters based on what you wanted to model. It just doesn't have the option.

 

Also, the books for it? Hardly legible. Which is why I gave up on it and went over to Champions.

 

Villains & Vigilantes

 

The math in creating a character is a bit overwhelming.

 

Also the fact that individual superpowers have fixed values. You can't vary the intensity of a V&V power. It is what it is. And on that side of the issue, I find the game too simplistic for my tastes.

 

V&V gets a lot of respect for me for its adventures. Good classic stuff. I own a lot of them.

 

Marvel Heroic Roleplaying

 

What character generation system? The benchmarks they give for individual characters capabilities are so wide-ranging that I see issues even differentiating characters of similar powers at all. And that's a big problem to me.

 

Conslusion

 

I'm in the market for superhero game that is lighter weight on character creation than either M&M or the Hero System. But one that still gives clear definition of a characters powers and capabilities.

 

I want a system that allows me the freedom to build the characters I want, with enough definition in their abilities to be succinct. But is also easy to run.

 

If you have any ideas what that might be, let me know. Because right now, I'm at a loss.

 

 

[sinanju]

I'd recommend taking a look at Wild Talents. They have a "cafeteria" of pregenerated powers, but you can design your own if you want. The system is relatively simple. You roll sets of d10s (stat + skill or power), and instead of a target number, you want sets (a pair, or three or four or five of the same number). Any single pair is a success, the more of that number you roll, the better you do. The numbers also constitute a hit location system (10 = head, 7-9 = torso, etc). The number of successes you have (a pair, three, etc) also determines action order in a turn--so it's possible for an attack to happen before you can dodge/block even if you succeeded in the roll. Damage is usually number of successes + weapon/stat bonus minus defense (if any). So one roll determines who goes first, how much damage you do, and where you hit the other guy. (There are rules for going faster in the combat order, called shots, multiple actions--but they're all optional.)

 

Power design can be a little more complex than it sounded like when I first heard of the system, but nothing like as intensive as Champions.

[Cassandra]

One of the reasons a created a series of Templates for Characteristics based on the Type of Hero (Brick, Energy Projector, Mentalist, Speedster, etc.), and built my characters on a 250 Points/60 Active Points Maximum is to avoid complications, and allow play balance.

[Hyper-Man]

I'd recommend taking a look at Wild Talents. They have a "cafeteria" of pregenerated powers, but you can design your own if you want. The system is relatively simple. You roll sets of d10s (stat + skill or power), and instead of a target number, you want sets (a pair, or three or four or five of the same number). Any single pair is a success, the more of that number you roll, the better you do. The numbers also constitute a hit location system (10 = head, 7-9 = torso, etc). The number of successes you have (a pair, three, etc) also determines action order in a turn--so it's possible for an attack to happen before you can dodge/block even if you succeeded in the roll. Damage is usually number of successes + weapon/stat bonus minus defense (if any). So one roll determines who goes first, how much damage you do, and where you hit the other guy. (There are rules for going faster in the combat order, called shots, multiple actions--but they're all optional.)

 

Power design can be a little more complex than it sounded like when I first heard of the system, but nothing like as intensive as Champions.

 

To be clear, the quoted text from my first post was not MY question. It was someone else's on RPGnet. If you follow the link to the thread on that forum you'll see several long time HERO players that have migrated to other systems for similar reasons to those explained by Darrin Kelley above. These folks are very unlikely to return to HERO. I'm not trying to convince them to change their minds. I'm just trying to figure out if there is anything we can do to keep this from becoming a bigger trend.

[Shiva13]

I am the one who posted that original post on RPG.net. Completely my responsibility.

 

It already is a big trend. It's been an ongoing issue since before the rise of Fuzion.

 

A rift in the Hero System community formed around the issue of increasing complication and definition. As a result, those who really did not like the growing complexity ended up feeling disenfranchised. As the company focused more and more on that hardcore audience that liked the growing complexity.

 

That rift eventually led to the massive migration of those people who had been Hero System gamers that the company chose to ignore to Mutants & Masterminds. Which contributed, at a shocking level, to that game system's success and popularity.

 

So honestly? I view your concerns about Hero System gamers migrating to other systems as being a case of "too little, too late". Because the Hero System now is what it has become.

[Guest Goradin]

I bought Wild Talents I did not care for the system but it was well worth it for the world setting. I still think it scales poorly to 4 color comic gaming but was great for lesser powered supers gaming. The thing is that we all appreciate different things or we'd be fighting over the same thing.

 

No offense, Shiva13, but I like to get my eyes on a book and I certainly don't rely on a reviewer to make my decisions in movies, games or music. I am pretty independent minded. I think your way off in your assessment of HERO. Hero 5th edition was one of the best ever produced with outstanding support. This is depsite Fuzion and some of the lame 4th edition supplements. There is a lot to be said for simplicity though and retro games of simpler days are popular now. But I would like to present a different issue.

 

It is not just hero, it's RPGs in general that have declined. There are so many choices for enterainment than there was in 78 to 85 probably the hey day years of RPG gaming. Now you have the card games, online MMOs, Xbox, playstation and the digital world to contend with. This decline would have happened no matter what as tecnhnology and entertainment grew alot with more choices. It has little to do with a split in HERO system community because it affected RPGs as a whole. Was there a split in D&D? Vampire? Traveller?

 

I don't think there was a migration as much as an exodus from gaming in general.

[Ternaugh]

I have a confession. I haven't played Champions in almost 20 years. Oh, I've bought just about everything for Hero through 5th edition, and quite a bit of stuff for 6th. But I just don't have the spare time to go through everything, and manage a game for Champions anymore. My regular gaming group doesn't really have the time or inclination to play in a Champions game, either. We're not really big comic fans.

 

Sure, I've run Heroic stuff, mainly Fantasy Hero, but that's really an exercise in stripping out everything from the system that doesn't apply, and papering over the stuff that still feels a bit clunky. And that's a lot of work, too, as the power levels in the supplements for FH are generally too much for the game that I want to run. My players don't really have an urge to dig deeply into the nuts and bolts of the system to design a character, either. So, I'm looking at other systems that run things simpler and faster for the players, and that's leaning me towards Savage Worlds or Fate.

[Hyper-Man]

Hi Darrin/Shiva13,

 

Thanks for taking the time to post here. I can relate to your point of view. I haven't actually gamed in several years. The times I've been active in face2face games in the past 20 years is actually quite sparse. I look at Steve Longs contribution to HERO as a "better than nothing/fusion". The level of crunch he introduced with Dark Champions (especially super-skill abilities like Deadly-Blow that overlap existing Hit Location mechanics) bugged me in certain spots too but without him and the other investors of DOJ who published 5e we would have been stuck with Fusion as the 'last' published edition of the game and 4e's BBB as the last good one. That really would have been the end of HERO. There have been a LOT of really good 5e & 6e books published. The Ultimate Martial Artist is one of the best HERO supplements ever and the rest of the Ultimate books and their 6e equivalents are all good as well. Honestly, if there had not been a 5e I would probably not own any modern gaming books. It's the only stuff I've spent money on in the past 10 years. The only other options in my local community for face2face gaming has been D&DvX or Warhammer and I had no desire to invest any money into those systems. About 7 years ago my then wife and I hosted a D&D3.5 campaign (ran by someone else) for a couple of years at our place. We were loaned the books we needed so I gladly participated but it was just a "this is better than nothing" situation. I would have jumped at any opportunity to play HERO instead. But I'm just goofy that way.

[Shiva13]

I bought Wild Talents I did not care for the system but it was well worth it for the world setting. I still think it scales poorly to 4 color comic gaming but was great for lesser powered supers gaming. The thing is that we all appreciate different things or we'd be fighting over the same thing.

 

No offense, Shiva13, but I like to get my eyes on a book and I certainly don't rely on a reviewer to make my decisions in movies, games or music. I am pretty independent minded. I think your way off in your assessment of HERO. Hero 5th edition was one of the best ever produced with outstanding support. This is depsite Fuzion and some of the lame 4th edition supplements. There is a lot to be said for simplicity though and retro games of simpler days are popular now. But I would like to present a different issue.

 

It is not just hero, it's RPGs in general that have declined. There are so many choices for enterainment than there was in 78 to 85 probably the hey day years of RPG gaming. Now you have the card games, online MMOs, Xbox, playstation and the digital world to contend with. This decline would have happened no matter what as tecnhnology and entertainment grew alot with more choices. It has little to do with a split in HERO system community because it affected RPGs as a whole. Was there a split in D&D? Vampire? Traveller?

 

I don't think there was a migration as much as an exodus from gaming in general.

 

Let's not get into a "fan defensiveness" situation here. They tend to devolve rather rapidly. And I just don't want to deal with that.

 

I've been with the Hero System since 3rd edition. And I have a copy of 2nd edition. I also have a complete run of the Adventurer's Club. And one of my letters was printed in issue #9 of the Champions comic book series. So yeah, I've got more than a little experience with the system and the community around it.

 

My view of the Hero System is my own. I'm not trying to convert anyone to my way of thinking.

[sinanju]

I bought Wild Talents I did not care for the system but it was well worth it for the world setting. I still think it scales poorly to 4 color comic gaming but was great for lesser powered supers gaming. The thing is that we all appreciate different things or we'd be fighting over the same thing.

 

I like the system. I'd like to play it but haven't had a chance.

 

No offense, Shiva13, but I like to get my eyes on a book and I certainly don't rely on a reviewer to make my decisions in movies, games or music. I am pretty independent minded. I think your way off in your assessment of HERO. Hero 5th edition was one of the best ever produced with outstanding support. This is depsite Fuzion and some of the lame 4th edition supplements. There is a lot to be said for simplicity though and retro games of simpler days are popular now. But I would like to present a different issue.

 

It is not just hero, it's RPGs in general that have declined. There are so many choices for enterainment than there was in 78 to 85 probably the hey day years of RPG gaming. Now you have the card games, online MMOs, Xbox, playstation and the digital world to contend with. This decline would have happened no matter what as tecnhnology and entertainment grew alot with more choices. It has little to do with a split in HERO system community because it affected RPGs as a whole. Was there a split in D&D? Vampire? Traveller?

 

I don't think there was a migration as much as an exodus from gaming in general.

 

That's true. Plus, I haven't noticed that Champions alone has become more and more complex. That seems to be a trend throughout RPGs. When is the last time a major RPG didn't come in a huge book (or two books) with a $50 or more price tag?

 

While I still play Champions when I can (though, yes, some of the guys in my face-to-face group find it far too intricate a system to want to play very often), and GURPS and other major games, most of MY game purchases the last few years have been much smaller, indie games. Dogs in the Vineyard, Apocalyse World, Monsterhearts, DungeonWorld, Monster of the Week, 3:16, and others--games with simpler rules, yes, but also rules aimed at creating a specific play experience. They aren't intended to allow you to play any genre at any power level in any setting. They're more focused.

 

They're generally much less expensive, so trying them out has a much lower cost, and almost all have on-line fan communities producing additional resources that are even cheaper (or free) just for love of the game.

 

[Shiva13]

Hi Darrin/Shiva13,

 

Thanks for taking the time to post here. I can relate to your point of view. I haven't actually gamed in several years. The times I've been active in face2face games in the past 20 years is actually quite sparse. I look at Steve Longs contribution to HERO as a "better than nothing/fusion". The level of crunch he introduced with Dark Champions (especially super-skill abilities like Deadly-Blow that overlap existing Hit Location mechanics) bugged me in certain spots too but without him and the other investors of DOJ who published 5e we would have been stuck with Fusion as the 'last' published edition of the game and 4e's BBB as the last good one. That really would have been the end of HERO. There have been a LOT of really good 5e & 6e books published. The Ultimate Martial Artist is one of the best HERO supplements ever and the rest of the Ultimate books and their 6e equivalents are all good as well. Honestly, if there had not been a 5e I would probably not own any modern gaming books. It's the only stuff I've spent money on in the past 10 years. The only other options in my local community for face2face gaming has been D&DvX or Warhammer and I had no desire to invest any money into those systems. About 7 years ago my then wife and I hosted a D&D3.5 campaign (ran by someone else) for a couple of years at our place. We were loaned the books we needed so I gladly participated but it was just a "this is better than nothing" situation. I would have jumped at any opportunity to play HERO instead. But I'm just goofy that way.

 

"Better than nothing" alienated a significant majority of the 4th Edition fanbase to a worse degree than Fuzion ever did. It only embraced the hardest of the hardcore fanbase, and utterly ignored the rest of the game's audience.

 

[Tasha]

Remember that 5e was commissioned BEFORE the sale to the DOJ partners. It was supposed to be the edition that closed the many loopholes and fixed problems that the System Editor and others at Hero perceived to be causing issues in 4e. A LOT of work was done with 5e to cut down the manuscript to something that was more readable. Bruce did pretty much the same thing that Derek did with 6e. He Edited out the fiddly overwordy examples. Unlike Derek, many of the options were left in the manuscript.

 

I remember the Fanbase being overjoyed that 5e was going to be finally published. There was strong sales of that book, If there hadn't been good strong sales DOJ would have died right after publishing 5e.

 

Perhaps what Hero needs is a retry at doing something similar to Fuzion. With some of the 6e Sensabilities (ie no Figured characterisics, Simplified Characteristics, Roll High for skill rolls etc) It would have to include a fully featured power toolbox (which is something that FUZION was missing at it's launch). Limitations and Advantages would be adders and subtractors instead of something you multiply. IMHO Fuzion had some good things going for it. I didn't care for how damage was handled in the system, but with some work and playtesting something could be worked out that still feels like Hero. I am thinking that perhaps losing the Speed Chart would also be something that could simplify combat.

 

I seem to be one of the few that thought that Fuzion had some positive things going for it so I guess nothing will come of noodling some rules like Above.

[Killer Shrike]

...it seems to me that there tends to be cycles to human endeavors where the things that are emerging now are often a reaction to the things that came immediately before.

 

Case in point, RPGs started out simple and fun but not really sensical or fully functional (the era of one step up from board or war games with rather simplistic or naive settings and fairly pedestrian concepts), then they tended to get more complex but not necessarily more sensical and though still kind of fun they were often dys or semi-functional (the era of great concepts and settings but crap rules, lots of lookup tables, and densely printed appendixes), then they got still more complex but with more of a focus on making sense and being functional but sometimes at the expense of fun (the rise of generic systems with no settings, for instance), then a wave of new versions of games from previous eras but with better and / or more comprehensively detailed rules...often smotheringly so (D&D 3e being perhaps the most notable, but not only example), and then the current wave of simple abstract but functional systems where skeletal mechanics are allocated to a back seat to concept and narrative.

 

I wont be surprised when in a few years to see a trending desire for less hand waving and more concreteness, at least for some kinds of games.

 

It's somewhat sad to see people leave the HERO System, but I think people should play the games they like to play and have fun while doing it. Deep, right? So, if the HERO System isn't doing it for them...then sure...moving on to something that does is a logical thing to do.

 

I'm actually considering running something using FATE: Core myself, and I love the HERO System. However, for me there are some things for which the overhead of the HERO System is not worth it or is not feasible. On the other hand, there are some things where handwavy narrativism is simply not concrete enough as well. It doesn't have to be a "one system to rule them all" thing. I can use the system that suits the game I'm trying to run.

 

 

 

The thing that I find odd however RE: players claiming they are departing due to encroaching rules complexity of the HERO System, is that it's quite easy to play a stripped down lower detail version of the HERO System by simply using the Basic Rulebook; and that's discounting the option of simply disregarding anything in the full editions that isn't wanted. The Basic Rulebook and HERO Sidekick were cheap, small, and completely playable as is. Yet...there was never a vocal population of "Basic HERO players" on these forums to the best of my knowledge. As a comparison in the other direction see FAE vs FATE, where the players of the drastically stripped down FAE version of the rules are quite visible and vociferous. The tools were made available, but to the best of my knowledge people opted not to use them in substantial numbers (or else were quiet about it).

 

At its core, the HERO System is a handful of actual mechanics. The combat engine plus the metarules could be used as a formal system from which to derive everything else (in theory). The rest of it is just concretions of specific concepts that have been "officially" branded and disseminated. But, segmented Turns, buy effect with points which are also the measurement of character ability and experience, hindrances give you points back, 3d6 bell curve generally anchored on 11-, dual tally dice (1=0,2-5=1,6=2), and base effect * advantages = active points / limitations = real cost, SFX vs mechanics....that's basically the HERO System give or take a few things. Skills could be abstracted in a paragraph. The specific characteristics and their uses take up some page space...but really...other than the sacred cow-ness of it, the HERO System mechanics could survive without most of the characteristics by re-translating them as skills and re-basing the skills accordingly. Etc. It can be compressed into a smaller footprint with a little effort.

 

But...whatever...people will jump ship to a different rule system if they feel stifled by the HERO System. Vice versa, some people will jump to the HERO System from some other system because they are looking for more granularity and structure. Saying people have left the HERO System in recent years ignores the fact that some people have joined as well.

[Guest Goradin]

 

Let's not get into a "fan defensiveness" situation here. They tend to devolve rather rapidly. And I just don't want to deal with that.

 

I've been with the Hero System since 3rd edition. And I have a copy of 2nd edition. I also have a complete run of the Adventurer's Club. And one of my letters was printed in issue #9 of the Champions comic book series. So yeah, I've got more than a little experience with the system and the community around it.

 

My view of the Hero System is my own. I'm not trying to convert anyone to my way of thinking.

 

You don't want to get in to it? Who in the heck do you think you are? I could care less what you want to get into, bub. The moment the posted the article you became fair game for comments. No one cares what you want to get into and it's a free country where I live. Your article certainly seems to take shots at a lot of systems and put down a lot of games. Are you an avid RPGer? Owning a book and playing are two different things every system has it's faults. I would like to point out that you seem to get lost on a lot of systems. Do you GM less and play more?

 

You wrote the article and I pointed out some other matters that you completely ignored that in all honesty it's not just Champions/HERO system but the RPG industry, in general. There are plenty of guys who have been around just as long if not longer. AC is pretty easy to get a complete run of it. Collector wise it is not that impressive.

 

Wow, your letter made it into a comic book your Mom must be proud. That is almost as good as Pulitzer, I am sorry I got out of line and questioned you. Did any of your letters make it to the North Pole too?

 

[massey]

If I hadn't learned Champions in 4th edition, I wouldn't have touched 5th edition. The cover art was unappealing, the book was massively thick, there's no way I'd have even glanced at it. It really was a game that targeted the most hardcore fans. It did not appear to be designed to attract new fans who were unfamiliar with the game. I have barely glanced at 6th edition because it continued everything that I didn't like about 5th. Right now our group plays a mixture of 4th and 5th edition, primarily 4th with added 5th edition stuff that we liked.

 

The game police have yet to kick in my door. Shiva13, why don't you just play 3rd or 4th edition Champions?

 

You could probably distill Champions down to a 30 page pamphlet with very quick power and skill descriptions. But the tendency lately has been to revel in the complexities of the game.

[CrosshairCollie]

I've certainly considered it, but then I've considered quitting gaming in general lately; I just don't have the drive anymore. And, yes, gaming in general has gotten more complicated, and part of that is to sell books (which is why gaming companies exist). A part of me actually likes that, but most people I know don't, and have no interest whatsoever in actually learning HERO, so in many ways I'm both the GM and the players. I have to make all the characters, explain all the rules ... it gets tiring, and is probably the cause of my burnout. I get a game idea, then I think that I'll have even MORE to do ...

[CrosshairCollie]

 

Let's not get into a "fan defensiveness" situation here. They tend to devolve rather rapidly. And I just don't want to deal with that.

 

I've been with the Hero System since 3rd edition. And I have a copy of 2nd edition. I also have a complete run of the Adventurer's Club. And one of my letters was printed in issue #9 of the Champions comic book series. So yeah, I've got more than a little experience with the system and the community around it.

 

My view of the Hero System is my own. I'm not trying to convert anyone to my way of thinking.

 

You don't want to get in to it? Who in the heck do you think you are? I could care less what you want to get into, bub. The moment the posted the article you became fair game for comments. No one cares what you want to get into and it's a free country where I live. Your article certainly seems to take shots at a lot of systems and put down a lot of games. Are you an avid RPGer? Owning a book and playing are two different things every system has it's faults. I would like to point out that you seem to get lost on a lot of systems. Do you GM less and play more?

 

You wrote the article and I pointed out some other matters that you completely ignored that in all honesty it's not just Champions/HERO system but the RPG industry, in general. There are plenty of guys who have been around just as long if not longer. AC is pretty easy to get a complete run of it. Collector wise it is not that impressive.

 

Wow, your letter made it into a comic book your Mom must be proud. That is almost as good as Pulitzer, I am sorry I got out of line and questioned you. Did any of your letters make it to the North Pole too?

Looks like he called that whole 'devolve' thing right on the nose.

 

And it's "I couldn't care less". If you could care less, there's a chance of you still caring.

[Greywind]

While fully understanding CC's points, I don't understand the "I can't/won't spend any time on a hobby I love because of the parts of the hobby that are tedious." If you feel that way, find a simple system that has pre-written adventure modules (which seems to really only be MSRP) and stick with that, using only pre-gens.

[Hyper-Man]

 

You don't want to get in to it? Who in the heck do you think you are? I could care less what you want to get into, bub. The moment the posted the article you became fair game for comments. No one cares what you want to get into and it's a free country where I live. Your article certainly seems to take shots at a lot of systems and put down a lot of games. Are you an avid RPGer? Owning a book and playing are two different things every system has it's faults. I would like to point out that you seem to get lost on a lot of systems. Do you GM less and play more?

 

You wrote the article and I pointed out some other matters that you completely ignored that in all honesty it's not just Champions/HERO system but the RPG industry, in general. There are plenty of guys who have been around just as long if not longer. AC is pretty easy to get a complete run of it. Collector wise it is not that impressive.

 

Wow, your letter made it into a comic book your Mom must be proud. That is almost as good as Pulitzer, I am sorry I got out of line and questioned you. Did any of your letters make it to the North Pole too?

 

 

Goradian, I'm not a moderator but that response seems a little excessive. I didn't crosspost from his RPGnet thread just so folks over here could gang up on him.

[Tasha]

The funniest thing about Threads like is is the Perceived complexity of newer editions. I guess I have a hard time seeing it. 5e added more explanations for what everything was supposed to be. The Rules are actually clearer in 5e.

 

The hardest part of any Generic system is having to write up systems that other games take for granted (ie Magic and Psionics). This can dampen the enthusiasm for many potential GM's. It's one reason that Superheroes are more popular. Less for the GM to write up.

[Sketchpad]

 

Let's not get into a "fan defensiveness" situation here. They tend to devolve rather rapidly. And I just don't want to deal with that.

 

I've been with the Hero System since 3rd edition. And I have a copy of 2nd edition. I also have a complete run of the Adventurer's Club. And one of my letters was printed in issue #9 of the Champions comic book series. So yeah, I've got more than a little experience with the system and the community around it.

 

My view of the Hero System is my own. I'm not trying to convert anyone to my way of thinking.

 

You don't want to get in to it? Who in the heck do you think you are? I could care less what you want to get into, bub. The moment the posted the article you became fair game for comments. No one cares what you want to get into and it's a free country where I live. Your article certainly seems to take shots at a lot of systems and put down a lot of games. Are you an avid RPGer? Owning a book and playing are two different things every system has it's faults. I would like to point out that you seem to get lost on a lot of systems. Do you GM less and play more?

 

You wrote the article and I pointed out some other matters that you completely ignored that in all honesty it's not just Champions/HERO system but the RPG industry, in general. There are plenty of guys who have been around just as long if not longer. AC is pretty easy to get a complete run of it. Collector wise it is not that impressive.

 

Wow, your letter made it into a comic book your Mom must be proud. That is almost as good as Pulitzer, I am sorry I got out of line and questioned you. Did any of your letters make it to the North Pole too?

Let's keep it civil, Goradin.

[Cancer]

We still game approximately weekly, but superheroes are a genre we haven't done a lot of lately. Steampunk (Airship Pirates) is the most recent thing that got started, but older campaigns in several genres are still going. We haven't started anything using HERO system in several years. I think we are about to have one of our "what do we want to do" email discussions. That is fraught with the close ties between GM issues and the genres each GM prefers to run, rather than strictly genre/system questions, unfortunately.

[Sketchpad]

As a fan of Hero (and Champions specifically), I've found myself running other games due in part to my group and in part to looking for some streamlining. I ran Hero through the '80s and '90s, with some play during the early '00s. While I like both 5th and 6th ed versions, 4th ed was my favorite. I loved the setting in particular and carried it over through 4th, C:NM and into 5th before ending the campaign and compiling my own campaign world. Since then, like you, Darrin, I've found myself sampling system after system, including Silver Age Sentinels, M&M 1st-3rd, d6 Supers, and Deeds Not Words. I've even looked at Savage Worlds and many of the indie superhero RPGs. In the end, we settled on M&M3e because it had some of Champions' flexibility but was a bit more streamlined when it came to equipment and vehicles. Honestly, I think at this point, if I got to return to Champions, I'd be house ruling quite a bit in to help the system be more what I want it to be (which, IMHO, is one of the things I like about Hero). It's rough finding a system that appeals to both you and your gaming group. Have you looked over Super or Icons? Super always looked interesting to me, and Icons can be fun. Good luck Darrin, I hope you find the system that works for you.

[Shiva13]

I tried to keep things civil. That's all.

 

Tasha:

 

The growing view of complexity comes from the verbosity of character sheets. 4th edition, the baseline superhero character was 250 points. 5th edition, they lept up to a 350 point baseline, And 6th edition, the baseline is now 400 points.

 

The verbosity in character sheets actually started in 4th edition with Dark Champions. It was a paradigm shift in how characters in the sourcebooks were presented.

[Greywind]

The point shift was to account for pricing changes.