I wonder how many have stopped using Champions/HERO for similar reasons to this?

[Sketchpad]

The more time consuming that things like character creation and management of a game system is to me, the less time I am spending thinking about new characters and fun new situations And that's a negative to me.

 

I would be at my most happiest if I had a game system that utterly and seamlessly faded into the background. And was only referenced when the need arose. But was otherwise out of my way most of the time of the time, so I could spend that time creatively.

I have to agree with KS about FATE and specifically FATE Accelerated. Both are offered as a pay-as-you-want method on Evil Hat's website. Very rules lite and very flexible mechanics that encourage more storytelling than anything else.

[Sketchpad]

Personally, I never had too many issues with Hero. I started in the mid-80s and used wither a scratch pad or a calculator to do my work. As computers became more accessible, I adapted to using the various programs for the system and use Hero Designer these days. I've said before that my group ops for other games at this time, but we played the heck out of Champions back in the '90s and I've considered returning on more than one occasion. In fact, I swore that if I ever found myself putting together a new group, it's hold Hero and GURPS at its core. I've never found Hero all that difficult and have taught more than a few dozen how to play the system since I was a teenager (including my own teenage daughters and niece).

However, I feel the appeal of such games as Mutants & Masterminds and the late Silver Age Sentinels is all about streamlining and making the books look like the others on bookshelves. Appearance is everything in a store these days. Color books with a good layout and design tend to attract more attention than others. And, while I love the Hero System, as a graphic designer, the layout bugs me. In fact, and I realize I'm probably in the minority here, but I really enjoyed the old 3rd ed stat format from books like Primus & Demon and The Blood & Dr. McQuark. Additionally, while I love the crunch of the system, I think vehicles, bases and such could all be overhauled a bit and streamlined. Personally, I like having separate stats for such things, but I don't think they need to be quite as detailed. Honestly, when I eventually return to Champions (because it WILL happen), I see myself pulling in various rules from other systems to make my game run better for me. And, while I think Hero is my system of choice, it's still a different Hero than we've seen.

[BTolputt]

Hero is a system that's somewhat "front-loaded" in complexity. Creating a character takes quite a bit more time than a lot of other systems and this happens before players get a chance to enjoy the game in play. This can appeal to gamers that enjoy the (relative) complexity and "solo play" of putting together their character within a campaign's limitations. Traveller is another game that appeals to this type of player - putting together spaceships, rolling new characters then creating a corresponding history, etc. Like finagling the best representation of your character concept from effects, frameworks, limitations, etc holds a similar thrill for that kind of problem-solving mindset.

 

I'm a "character player" type myself. I love the flexibility Hero/Champions offers but most of the time, I just want to get the character into the game and play them. Most of the folks I've ever played with are the same. The few times we've played with "character builder" types, they've been able to overshadow the rest of the (ingame) team.

 

They didn't do it to cause grief (i.e. not munchkins), they just got more out of the building exercise than the rest of us did and, unlike less flexible systems, this spilled over into gameplay quite strongly. These same players caused no problems in D&D & Storyteller games due to the inflexibility of character creation in those systems.

 

Long story short, in my opinion, Champions appeals to the "builder" mindset and, due to the nature of needing to do this first, those that are less interested in building characters (instead wanting to roleplay characters) tend to get turned off. I was lucky in that I was introduced to Champions with a group that liked the playing more than the building, so I got to enjoy the flexibility of the system without being beaten over the head by the difference between tweaked and non-tweaked character builds.

[Hermit]

My Face to Face players, even after all these years, often tell me what they want, and then I make the character sheet short of anywhere of 5 to 20 points then hand it over to see if it's what they wanted and where they'd like those last remaining points. By now I know them pretty well so I usually get it right The combat can move pretty smoothly from there.

 

And yes, Hero Designer has been a real time saver (Not to inflate Dan's ego)

[IndianaJoe3]

One reason I haven't seen mentioned above is group size. HERO works pretty smoothly in a group of 3-4 players, but seems to get bogged down with more than that. I play in a fairly large group (6 regulars, plus 1-3 who show up more intermittently), and we switched from Champions to FATE the minute (literally!) I described it to everyone because combats were taking so long.

[phydaux]

"Hero System/Champions... This is the game I have the most experience with. And the main problem with it, is that character generation can become consumed by serious amounts of complication. So much that it can be off-putting to even gamers who have serious experience with it."

 

Maybe it's because I've been playing since Champions I-II-III, but I can whip up a rough character draft in ~5 minutes, and have him fully polished in another 15. So can most of the other players in my regular gaming group.

 

That said, we do have one guy who takes ~3 DAYS to make a 350 point 5th ed character. But my observation is that his brain just does not work in the same way as everyone elses. He gets all wrapped up in the details of the SFX and how it's all tied into his origin story, then gets overwhelmed at trying to represent the tiniest details through game mechanics.

 

"How do I represent that my character was molested at age 12 by his youth pastor? Would I get more points having been molested by a Catholic priest, since it's a larger and more powerful organisation?"

[Shiva13]

In converting a character from 5th Edition Revised to 6th Edition, it actually took me a couple of months work on that character. And that was with Hero Designer.

 

I took so long in doing so because I was still getting the feel for the new edition. And it took many character revisions to become satisfied with the outcome.

[Greywind]

"How do I represent that my character was molested at age 12 by his youth pastor? Would I get more points having been molested by a Catholic priest' date=' since it's a larger and more powerful organisation?"[/quote']

 

Meh. That's just background noise unless it is something that will come up during the course of play. It's an incident that may color his perceptions, but unless there are reasons to be going up against the church or its agents, it isn't something that will have an impact in game unless a session involves a child molester.

[bigbywolfe]

In converting a character from 5th Edition Revised to 6th Edition, it actually took me a couple of months work on that character. And that was with Hero Designer.

 

I took so long in doing so because I was still getting the feel for the new edition. And it took many character revisions to become satisfied with the outcome.

Considering you can use 90% of characters and power builds from 5E in 6E without even bothering to convert, what made the conversion so difficult?

[phoenix240]

I like the mechanical diversity that Champions facilitates. It's the main reason I came to the system from FASERIP and never looked back; it just doesn't suit my taste anymore. I love the degree of precision that I can model the characters that I have mind so that even very similar concepts, two bricks, for example, can look very and perform very differently in play without much handwaving.

 

I know many people don't care for that level of detail and appreciate that but for me, if I'm going to bother with mechanics I want them to be detailed enough to make characters, their actions and the result distinct and the players choices in creation and the game meaningful. And as others have said, you can dial the complexity in Hero System up and down as desired. Sometimes I don't think that's played up enough.

 

And call it "fan defensiveness" But I don't find Hero System that complicated after seeing some of the number juggling, mounds of jargon and rules for systems that are allegedly "simpler". GURPS is, IMO, significantly more complicated or perhaps dense is a better term. Not a bad system but there's more meat to it than Hero System. And Mutants And Masterminds isn't really simpler just abstracted in different areas. Again, all my opinion that's how I feel.

 

Edit: re: Speed/complexity of character generation. Creating characters for most of the people I've games Hero with can take awhile for some but its not the mechanics; its the plethora of options available. Someone referred to it as "Analysis Paralysis" and I think that's good name. It's like being overwhelmed by the choices at a buffet. Everything looks so good but you can only eat so much. Of course, being overly (IMO) concerned about mechanical optimization and looking for the 'best" way to build a character can be an aspect of this problem for some.

 

It's also entirely possible to use a modeling method to build characters in Hero.

[mbaer99]

Okay, first of all hi. I would like to add my input on a couple of things here.

 

First, I love hero system. I play it with the character creation book, the combat book and gadgets and gear all 5th. That is all I have ever felt I needed. My group has a great time and we play in whatever setting we chose. The system is well designed and very flexible which we all appreciate. Yes it does take time to make characters and other things, but it is a fun time and once you get the hang of it, not quite that bad. Since the group has previous champions experience it might help as well.

 

Now lets talk about GURPS : GURPS used to be my game of choice years ago, but then 4th edition came out and I was like what?! Third edition was a well supported product with 200+ sourcebooks. What annoyed me about GURPS at the end was everything had to be detailed. (EX Social Stigma : Dead for zombies), They also put out a supers book which while written okay was not (IMO) the best superhero system ever devised.

 

Just a little blurb on my thoughts. Near as I can figure my group plays basic hero and have never had an issue or a problem with it,

[Balabanto]

My advice here is to keep it simple and try not to build the most obscenely complex set of powers imaginable.

 

Player: My character's superpower is Quasi-Cellular Parthenogenesis!

 

GM: Excuse me?

 

Player: How do I represent this?

 

Part of the problem with Champions is that people get caught up in the minutia of building their character design perfectly instead of simply but effectively. Things don't need to be perfectly modeled when you're a starting character. Reams of power limitations don't make your character better. They just make it more complicated. When everything is simple, the game flows smoothly.

 

[Shiva13]

In converting a character from 5th Edition Revised to 6th Edition, it actually took me a couple of months work on that character. And that was with Hero Designer.

 

I took so long in doing so because I was still getting the feel for the new edition. And it took many character revisions to become satisfied with the outcome.

The fact that Figured Characteristics were no longer Figured added a bit of complication to the process for me.

 

The adoption of and proper use of Unified Power certainly added some to the issue.

[Escafarc]

Don 't forget that the HERO System has a usable Index in the back of the books unlike most other systems out there..

[Cassandra]

I love the Champions Systems because of the flexibility and the concept of "Special Effects". The Atom comes to find.

 

The Silver Age Atom could shrink to microscopic size, and ride on electrical impulses in telephone lines to get from place to place.

 

Now one could spend a lot of points buying Shrinking, or they could simply use Megascale Teleportation with a limitation Only along Phone Lines. That way you save points and remain true to the character concept.

 

In combat Ray Palmer is basically a Martial Artist who happens to be four inches tall. He can use Teleportation to simulate going in and out of microscopic size in hand to hand combat.

 

 

[Greywind]

I've never seen Ray Palmer as a Martial Artist. He's a brawler that uses his height and density adjustment powers to see him through. I don't think I've seen any write ups of him that included any form of Martial Arts. He does, however, have some small skill with a sword.

[Ken Winland]

Howdy,

 

I started Champions with 1st edition back in '81/'82, but was burnt out of it by 3rd edition -- it became a war of "who spent their points better" and devolved more into a situation of mechanics fighting mechanics, as opposed to roleplaying and flavour. We tried Villains & Vigilantes, which is amusing for a game now and then. I also ran Gurps Supers for a while, which was so-so. For a while in the 90s my fallback was Chaosium's Superworld, which I love but only handles the gritty (read: low) end of superheroics really well. I *loved* Silver Age Sentinels, and still do - a GREAT system with a perfect balance of complexity, detail, and playability.

 

M&M did nothing for my group - none of us are fans of d20.

 

THAT all said, I feel myself being sucked back into Champions with 6E. This edition is a powerful tool and seems to have more options and is a little better with abuses. With the software to aid in character creation, it is really a strong platform for the genre.

 

Cheers,

 

Ken

[assault]

Brawling is a martial art in the Hero System. Or can be, anyway.

[Greywind]

"Brawling" tends to be "untrained combat". Kind of like Superman is a brawler.

[bigbywolfe]

"Brawling", "dirty fighting", and "two-fisted hero (who is not a trained boxer)" are all things often expressed with Martial Arts in Hero System.

[assault]

Pretty much all my Golden and Silver Age characters are built with "red blooded fisticuffs", aka Brawling.

 

My baseline is that all heroes (not counting sidekicks) should be able to deliver 8 DC. Not coincidentally, 20 STR and an Offensive Strike adds up to 8 DC.

 

Typically, I'll allow people with less than 20 STR to be better trained than this, buying extra DCs. That in turn flows through to the better martial artists, who can throw a 10 DC Offensive Strike, or sometimes even more. (I don't like going over 10 DC, though, as it starts to bend my suspension of disbelief.)

[Hyper-Man]

I've never seen Ray Palmer as a Martial Artist. He's a brawler that uses his height and density adjustment powers to see him through. I don't think I've seen any write ups of him that included any form of Martial Arts. He does, however, have some small skill with a sword.

My writeup has a martial arts package.

http://killershrike.com/MiscCharacters/Contributions/Hyper-Man/Supers/JLA/The%20Incredible%20Shrinking%20Man.html

 

This was intended to be a starting version of the character so it did not include any 'Sword of the Atom' stuff. 'Tiny Fu' is really no different than buying a martial art for Flash or Spider-Man. It's not a traditional form, it's an adaptation of their special abilities to combat.

[Greywind]

Heaven forbid that we not speak except in Hero System mechanics.

[Old Man]

Heaven forbid that we not speak except in Hero System mechanics.

I guess the question is whether he's a good brawler or not. I'm not familiar enough with the character to know either way. Typically I would use the Brawling martial art for someone who is really good or experienced at it--good enough to be able to use maneuvers other than what's on the basic combat maneuvers chart.

[BlueCloud2k2]

This discussion is pretty pointless for all participants. People change from system to other when they get fed up to current one. I have GMd and played several systems during the last 20 years. There are actually only few things that keep me playing systems and stop to play some.

 

This is exactly why I quit playing DnD and tried fantasy hero for a while - the DnD system was about as balanced as an axe, while HERO was more akin to a rapier. Any idiot could wield an axe, but it requires skill and training to wield a rapier effectively. That was why my fantasy hero campaign failed miserably - my players couldn't wrap their head around the HERO rules (well except my wife, her "tested" IQ may not be as high as mine but I really do think she's smarter than me).

 

So we went with 3.5 because half of our group didn't want to learn the new system and I was miserable.

 

And then I got ahold of the Pathfinder books. Needless to say I quite griping about broken mechanics for d20.

 

That said, HERO isn't for everyone. Me personally, I am a micromanaging prick who wants to know how the pieces work. I like transparency in a system. I don't mind the lack of Transparency in Pathfinder because it just runs better than 3.5. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

 

I love HERO because I get to see how the pieces fit together and I can build any effect I want. I run a few house rules and I've crafted a few feats and effects for Pathfinder using HERO guidelines. Just like my copy of FRED says "Ultimate Gamer's Toolkit."

 

Just my $.02