Jump to content

crayadder

Recommended Posts

Hi all,

 

I have a character concept which revolves around Karma. Her name is Ripple. One of the major powers that I thought of is a Karmic rebound. How would you build a power that enables a character to reflect an attack/power use onto the initiator (good or bad)? 

 

A couple of scenarios to work with:

 

  1. Bad guy throws a knife at Ripple and she uses her Karmic rebound to reflect it back on Bad guy. This one is easy - Missile Deflection with Reflection.
  2. Bad guy throws a knife at random person in sight of Ripple and she uses her Karmic rebound to reflect it back on Bad guy. random person could be on other side of room from Ripple.
  3. Bad guy attacks Ripple with a mental power and she uses her Karmic rebound to reflect it back on Bad guy.
  4. Bad guy attacks random person with a mental power and Ripple uses her Karmic rebound to reflect it back on Bad guy. Again, random person could be on other side of room from Ripple.
  5. Wash rinse repeat with attack type of your choice be it physical, energy, or mental.
  6. Bad guy is healing self or comrade. Ripple uses Karmic rebound to reflect the healing power to wounded friend of Ripple.
  7. Good guy is bestowing advantageous power or ability on a comrade. Ripple uses Karmic rebound to reflect that back onto the good guy, even if the good guy can't affect himself because the power is others only. 

I hope this gets the concept across. My guess is that it's going to be convoluted to build. 

 

Thanks for your help!

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi all,

 

I have a character concept which revolves around Karma. Her name is Ripple. One of the major powers that I thought of is a Karmic rebound. How would you build a power that enables a character to reflect an attack/power use onto the initiator (good or bad)? 

 

A couple of scenarios to work with:

 

  1. Bad guy throws a knife at Ripple and she uses her Karmic rebound to reflect it back on Bad guy. This one is easy - Missile Deflection with Reflection.
  2. Bad guy throws a knife at random person in sight of Ripple and she uses her Karmic rebound to reflect it back on Bad guy. random person could be on other side of room from Ripple.
  3. Bad guy attacks Ripple with a mental power and she uses her Karmic rebound to reflect it back on Bad guy.
  4. Bad guy attacks random person with a mental power and Ripple uses her Karmic rebound to reflect it back on Bad guy. Again, random person could be on other side of room from Ripple.
  5. Wash rinse repeat with attack type of your choice be it physical, energy, or mental.
  6. Bad guy is healing self or comrade. Ripple uses Karmic rebound to reflect the healing power to wounded friend of Ripple.
  7. Good guy is bestowing advantageous power or ability on a comrade. Ripple uses Karmic rebound to reflect that back onto the good guy, even if the good guy can't affect himself because the power is others only. 

I hope this gets the concept across. My guess is that it's going to be convoluted to build. 

 

Thanks for your help!

The only RAW legal way to do that would be a VPP with limitation "Only to Dispel a Power and Replicate power with a different target". Missile Deflection would cover most of the attack angles but healing and such cant be deflected, wont work on melee, and can never get around exclusions like "Others Only".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The only RAW legal way to do that would be a VPP with limitation "Only to Dispel a Power and Replicate power with a different target". Missile Deflection would cover most of the attack angles but healing and such cant be deflected, wont work on melee, and can never get around exclusions like "Others Only".

This.

 

Variable Power Pool with the limitation that it is only to dispel, replicate or reflect powers used aggressively.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, that or EDM to a universe where the rules work differently.

 

:whistle:

 

What?

 

 

:jawdrop:

Sean IS a genius.

The RAW does mention EDM as a way to make a Genies wish:

EDM (to same spot in a world where the wish was fullfilled)

 

The problem is that for any combat effects, cost and effect are impossible to balance.

The biggest issue is actually that you want to reflect attacks made against others. This can be a incredibly dangerous and powerfull effect, wich is propably why RAW does not allow it (no Ranged Deflection) - it would be too hard to put a price tag on it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The RAW does mention EDM as a way to make a Genies wish:

EDM (to same spot in a world where the wish was fullfilled)

 

....

 

Not in my book it doesn't, not after I got to work with scissors.  If I accidentally quoted a real rule, I can only apologise.

 

I'm pretty sure ranged deflection is OK but you can not (quite specifically can not) reflect at range.  I appreciate that is a powerful effect, but then so is being able to reflect stuff chucked at you.  I'm not quite sure why adding ranged to a power that already exists makes it so unbalancing.  Anyway...

 

One thing the OP did not mention is non-ranged attacks: are we covering those too?

 

I think the only way most of this can be done is in 2 stages: 

 

1. Stop the original effect (Deflection or Dispel or an enormous amount of Universal Defence applied to the target), then:

2. Conjure an identical effect using a VPP and apply that where you want to.  

 

Sounds easy but it is expensive.  First of all it may not be easy to put the effect where you want it: if you can (for example) see MastaBlasta about to cream Tulip (you are watching this through a window, say), can you Karma Reflect through the window?  Can you Karma Reflect if you can see Tulip but not MastaBlasta?

 

Given about four times the number of points for the campaign (I exaggerate for dramatic purposes - I have not worked it out, but the cost would certainly be enormous), you could build a VPP that could apply any effect, with any special effect at any target and that is (effectively) identical to an effect that someone else generated but you (somehow) neutralised.

 

I am thinking 'possible, just not practical'.

 

I might tone down my ambitions and go for something less grand, say a simple multi-power that has a slot for Blast and a slot for Healing.  Then take a neutralising power (Deflection if all the attacks will be ranged is probably best, but maybe Dispel).  Then you do a sweep attack, neutralising the attack and applying either a blast or heal to whichever target you choose, or build the multipower slots with triggers to do the same thing.

 

That is far more do-able and (to me) feels about right: you are redistributing health and harm in a general rather than specific way.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm pretty sure ranged deflection is OK but you can not (quite specifically can not) reflect at range.  I appreciate that is a powerful effect, but then so is being able to reflect stuff chucked at you.  I'm not quite sure why adding ranged to a power that already exists makes it so unbalancing.  Anyway...

I always mix those two up (Deflect and Reflect). But to the thematic of Ranged Reflect (and why it is a bad idea):

If you Reflect attacks made a agaisnt you, it cost you your actions to defend yourself and damage the enemy.

If your ally can Reflect for you, he protects you, damages a foe and you still have your actions.

 

Also do not forget that Reflection works a lot as deterent. If you can Reflect attack agaisnt yourself (used the Block vs Ranged Action), the enemy has a deterent not to attack you. With Ranged attacks at least(he could still go into melee). He can still attack anything else.

If you could do this at Range, the enemy now be detered from attacking anyone and anything in your Protected Area. Attacking you? Refelction. Attacking any ally? Reflection. Attacking that housecat just for a "Kick the Dog" moment? Reflection

Dunno about you, but I would not want to have such an ability used against my Characters. Depending how the defenses are your Karmic "Reflection for attacks made on other people" could actually kill or K.O. the attacker. It could prevent entire mook groups from using any Ranged Attacks simply because they would be taken out by thier owns shoot. And most mooks only have one kind of effective attack.

 

Finally there is no active defense against a reflected Attack. The attacker cannot abort. He cannot change his Multipower Slot Selection (go to a Defense power) or how his CSL are placed. Because he just ended his phase this turn (with the attack).

He can still avoid hitting users of Reflect

 

Deflection is nowhere near that dangerous. The "worst" result it can produce for the attacker is negating a Ranged attack that would otherwise be a hit. He isn't suddenly in danger of Killing or K.O.'ing himself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow, cool conversation. 

 

Here is some additional details on the effect I am looking for and the context in which it is to be used.

 

 

 

One thing the OP did not mention is non-ranged attacks: are we covering those too?

Yes

 

can you Karma Reflect through the window?

 

Yes

 

 

 

Can you Karma Reflect if you can see Tulip but not MastaBlasta?

No

 

 

 

Wouldn't some sort of Trigger also be required since this power seems to work reflexively?

I think of karma as being uncommon. Generally my feeling is that you build up good and bad karma until you have something happen to you where you say, "Wow, must be from all the good/bad things I've been doing" As such I don't see Ripple being able to Karma Reflect action after action until she runs out of END. I see it as maybe a power that she can use once per person per encounter so she has to choose her timing accordingly. This makes sense to me from a balance perspective as well since the power concept has such wide-ranging potential.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So what? It still cost someone their action to Reflect it.

But it is a whole Magnitude more Powerfull than normal Reflect and normal Deflect - because it combines both.

And each of the two is already an Upgrade for "Block vs Ranged Attacks".*

 

That you are only arguing against one point of a whole post implies you agree with everything else I said in that post.

 

*wich by RAW should be allowed for Superheroic games and even some heroic cases (6E2 59, Blocking Ranged Attacks): "With the GM’s permission, characters may Block Ranged attacks. Examples include a superhero using his energy bolt to shoot down a villain’s energy bolt, a knight raising his shield to stop an arrow, or mystically-powered Science Fiction warriors deflecting blaster fire with their laser swords."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I always mix those two up (Deflect and Reflect). But to the thematic of Ranged Reflect (and why it is a bad idea):

If you Reflect attacks made a agaisnt you, it cost you your actions to defend yourself and damage the enemy.

If your ally can Reflect for you, he protects you, damages a foe and you still have your actions.

 

Also do not forget that Reflection works a lot as deterent. If you can Reflect attack agaisnt yourself (used the Block vs Ranged Action), the enemy has a deterent not to attack you. With Ranged attacks at least(he could still go into melee). He can still attack anything else.

If you could do this at Range, the enemy now be detered from attacking anyone and anything in your Protected Area. Attacking you? Refelction. Attacking any ally? Reflection. Attacking that housecat just for a "Kick the Dog" moment? Reflection

Dunno about you, but I would not want to have such an ability used against my Characters. Depending how the defenses are your Karmic "Reflection for attacks made on other people" could actually kill or K.O. the attacker. It could prevent entire mook groups from using any Ranged Attacks simply because they would be taken out by thier owns shoot. And most mooks only have one kind of effective attack.

 

Finally there is no active defense against a reflected Attack. The attacker cannot abort. He cannot change his Multipower Slot Selection (go to a Defense power) or how his CSL are placed. Because he just ended his phase this turn (with the attack).

He can still avoid hitting users of Reflect

 

Deflection is nowhere near that dangerous. The "worst" result it can produce for the attacker is negating a Ranged attack that would otherwise be a hit. He isn't suddenly in danger of Killing or K.O.'ing himself.

 

 

Good points well made.  The problem with Reflection is that it does not scale.  If you could buy it so that you reflected a certain amount depending on what you had bought for reflection then that would be nice, so, for example, you can reflect 5 active points of attack for 2 points, or maybe 3.

 

It would still work with defection so that the attack is first deflected (saving you from the effects) but then the amount that is reflected is dependent on how many 'levels' you have bought: it would cost 24 or 36 (depending on the base cost) to reflect a 60 point attack.  Sounds fair enough.  You could even make it cheaper for certain types of attack either by messing with base cost depending on how common the attack is (my preferred option) or applying a modifier, like adjustment powers.  Finally I would call it Redirection rather than Reflection: I would allow it to be redirected anywhere (subject to a suitable cost).  Hell, I'd even allow you to buy 'Indirect' and other advantages for your Redirection so that you could modify the attack, by making it go round corners or act as a AoE.

 

I'd do this, not because I am wildly reckless (I am, but that is not the reason here) but because Hero should be a toolkit: if you can imagine it you can build it, or should be able to.  Whilst you can use the Deflect/Dispel + VPP that is clunky.  Well, I say 'clunky', I suppose it is not that bad in practice as the slot that you mimic (that is what this is, I suppose, a sort of mimic pool) is already statted).  Mind you, if that was how you 'should' do this, why do we need Reflection at all?  Personally I like the idea of massively expanding teh utility of Reflection.

 

I can certainly see how all your points would apply to that, but then you are going to be paying for what you get, which is nice...funnily enough allowing the Redirected attack to hit someone other than the original user would remove one concern - the inability to abort.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...