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GURPS and Hero System


phoenix240

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One of the gms in our groups has recently become interested in GURPS. Since I'd like to play in a few of her planned games that means I've become interested in it too. :)

 

While learning the basics it struck me that GURPS isn't really any simpler than Hero System. In fact, I'd call it more complicated in a number of ways. There's certainly more rules, more specific exceptions and details to remember. And much of it is spread out across and sometimes buried in a number of books, sometimes very non intuitive books. For example the rules fo hitting someone with a gun as a fist load (Pistol whipping) appear in GURPS: High Tech. It can be daunting to remember.

 

Yet I usually see Hero System come out on the losing end of discussions about which system is more complicated. Why do you think that is?

 

 

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More attributes, more abbreviations and the fact that it's more a building block system, i.e. both GMs and PCs probably have to spend a bit more time creating their special abilities. Whereas if you're aiming for a non-superhero game, it's more likely that GURPS already provides you with the fiddly bits (spells and/or equipment). And, well, a metric bajillion of source books.

 

That certainly was the case when you compared previous editions. Nowadays, you've got less figured statistics in HERO on one hand, and more stuff built on Powers in GURPS (and most of it is in the basic books). So regarding complexity, it seems to converge a bit nowadays.

 

Personally, I'm definitely regarding HERO as conceptually simpler. As was mentioned, GURPS has lots of specific rules. This isn't really all that negative if that's what you're going for. I'd regard GURPS Martial Arts as more realistic than HERO. Then again, I can actually run HERO MA with a printed character sheet and without referencing menial details about stop hits and aggressive parries...

 

Also, as much as it's possible in a relatively complex, generic system, HERO is turtles all the way down. Yes, it probably takes you more time to learn some details of powers construction, but in the end that's all you need to know, everything is derived from that. You can have a dozen magic system that all break down into the same constituent parts. Whereas in GURPs you've got Magic as Powers, the legacy spell system and half a dozen variations and orthogonal subsystems in Thaumatology or independent products. Sure, that makes it possible to have some rather unique and/or fine-tuned stuff. A bit like modeling putty vs. Lego.

 

Finally, gamers are notoriously bad at judging complexity. RoleMaster is considered difficult, after all, mostly because there are tables and you might have to add up double digit numbers. Whereas a lot of "OSR" folks are yearning for the "simple" life that was AD&D 1E. *coughcoughinitiative*

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While learning the basics it struck me that GURPS isn't really any simpler than Hero System. In fact, I'd call it more complicated in a number of ways.

 

<snip>

 

Yet I usually see Hero System come out on the losing end of discussions about which system is more complicated. Why do you think that is?

I would say that GURPS intends that you reason about the behavior of the game mechanics by reasoning about what would happen in the real world(*), whereas in Hero intends that you reason about the game mechanics themselves. The result is that they prefer slightly different mental abilities and different attitudes(**). This is magnified by the fact that Hero's "real world" is a more cinematic world than that of GURPS, so while both are really modeling fiction and not reality they are not modeling exactly the same type of fiction.

 

The real world is in fact very complex and game rules must be simpler approximations, so that more or less forces GURPS to have more arbitrary adjustable parameters (special-case rules, tables, magic numbers, modifiers, etc.) If your brain likes abstract reasoning such that you prefer to reason about the mechanics, Hero is much simpler. Parts of hero are like knowing physics and being able to work out what you need--GURPS never felt that way to me at any point. OTOH if your brain is such that you prefer to leverage your very large store of information and intuition about the real world and use somewhat more concrete reasoning by analogy, I imagine GURPS is simpler (my brain is of the former type, so I'm on better ground there). I also think the GM has to approach them differently because of the willingness of GURPS to have many special-case rules. When I tried to run GURPS way back in the day I discovered that you could not blindly import rules from any book/genre into another genre without catastrophe, whereas with ordinary GM care you can usually do this in Hero as long as it fits your game. When I tried the same with GURPS my players created things like pulp heroes (heroic normals) who could singlehandedly beat up a troupe of gorillas with their bare hands while up in trees. (If that happened in Hero, it wouldn't be because I used a single rule intended for a higher-power campaign in a lower-powered one, but because Hero is quite willing to let your whole campaign be high-powered if you want it. You could make a mistake with the same result, but it would have a different cause.) Because of this I would say GURPS is less unified, but this is just another aspect of the aforementioned willingness to use more special-case rules.

 

I don't know of any other game design by the Hero authors, but I've read and played other rules by Steve Jackson and to me this difference reflects the way Steve Jackson's mind works. His designs usually irritate me because they feel like too many special-case rules that jigger the arbitrary parameters in just the right way, compared to other games that are more true to some underlying general rule or pattern. He's obviously a very successful game designer and is a professional in a way that the Hero team was not, so I think that mainly just means his mind works differently than mine. I prefer not to argue too much about which is better, but rather just that that this affects who likes his approach to rules-writing as opposed to that underlying Hero.

 

As for why people say Hero is more complex, I suspect that has something to do with the relative percentages of the population who prefer abstract reasoning about algorithms vs. reasoning by analogy with the real world. Other than that, it's a pointless discussion because the systems are related (as Steve Jackson has said explicitly) and retain many similarities, and if you can handle the complexity of one you can handle the other.

 

Paycheck Hero

 

* I did not take a position on how well or how often this will work, only that this is the goal.

 

** That isn't to say that you can't or shouldn't reason about GURPS mechanics or use real-world knowledge to predict by analogy what Hero will do, only that it's a bit easier and a bit more likely to succeed if you reason about mechanics in Hero than in GURPS and easier to succeed by reasoning by real-world analogy in GURPS.

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Making most GURPS characters strikes me as less of a creative exercise than the equivalent Hero character. When GURPS cites most Advantages, Disadvantages and Skills, it will tell you exactly what it does. That was even worse in third edition, but even in fourth edition there is usually absolutely no doubt about what an advantage does and how it does it. And Disadvantages are practically handed to you with relatively little left to player discretion.

 

By contrast, there are virtually no straitjackets in Hero. Once you know the system there's nothing you can't at least try to build. You can even, with just a little work, build a Skill that works differently from another skill of the same class. And Complications are so loosely defined that you can make your own very simply. Want a character who breaks into hives at the very sight of cheese? You can do it, but don't be surprised if the GM throws cheese at you every opportunity that presents itself....

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GURPS, yes, has a lot (a lot!) more special cases and exceptions to general rules.

 

Also, HERO SYSTEM works very well for superheroes and not quite as well for normal humans. GURPS is just the opposite. It works well for normal humans, but trying to play superheroes can go awry very quickly.

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I think it comes down to Hero's Complexity is very frontloaded in Character Generation. Until 5e you had to build your own powers/Spells/special abilities. Where in GURPS you had those things figured out for you in one of the many Genre Books. Also, building Powers in Hero LOOKS complicated due to the way Advantages/Limitations/ and Power Frameworks are handled in the system ie you use Multiplication/Division and addition of fractions all of which are things people assume are complicated at first look.

Also, Hero is set for a gentler reality. Characters CAN do crazy things just like you see in movies, comics and Books. It's pretty easy to set the rules up to be pretty gritty and deadly.

 

On top of that Hero can be a bit tricky to balance Heroes vs "Opponents".

 

I could never make a GURPS character there was so much this gives that thing a cost savings, and also gives a freebie on those other 3 skills. I hear that they removed much of that kind of stuff from the system, but by then I would just buy the sourcebooks as Conversion fodder into Hero.

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One of the gms in our groups has recently become interested in GURPS. Since I'd like to play in a few of her planned games that means I've become interested in it too. :)

 

While learning the basics it struck me that GURPS isn't really any simpler than Hero System. In fact, I'd call it more complicated in a number of ways. There's certainly more rules, more specific exceptions and details to remember. And much of it is spread out across and sometimes buried in a number of books, sometimes very non intuitive books. For example the rules fo hitting someone with a gun as a fist load (Pistol whipping) appear in GURPS: High Tech. It can be daunting to remember.

 

Yet I usually see Hero System come out on the losing end of discussions about which system is more complicated. Why do you think that is?

 

Internet dogma.

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I think it comes down to Hero's Complexity is very frontloaded in Character Generation.

 

Bingo. That's not the only factor but I think it's the biggest single reason Hero has such a reputation for being complicated.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Even if I wanted to frontload a palindromedary, which front do I load?

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Bingo. That's not the only factor but I think it's the biggest single reason Hero has such a reputation for being complicated.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Even if I wanted to frontload a palindromedary, which front do I load?

Power generation looks like it would be hard with all of the Multiplication and division. Also the adding of Fractions. It all makes the system seem very math heavy.

 

I would love to see some Campaign sourcebooks that had tons of premade Powers/Spells etc at the beginning of the book at the recommened powerlevel for the Game world. I would then put the Powers, Advantages, and Limitations etc at the end of the book as an "Advanced Player/GM Appendix, Customizing Spells etc"

 

 

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re: Fractions

 

I guess I like fractions better than most and have become very adept at figuring out all the possible advantage combinations that will end up at 60, 70 or 75 Active points.

 

I wonder if some folks are put off by the prospect of figuring out the active cost of a power with +3/4 Advantages? 

 

Instead of using a calculator to figure out what the base power cost multiplied by 1.75 equals I just converted 1 3/4 to 7/4. That makes it really easy to see that a 40 point base power will become 70 active with +3/4 in total Advantages.  Figuring out Real cost is basically the same.

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re: Fractions

 

I guess I like fractions better than most and have become very adept at figuring out all the possible advantage combinations that will end up at 60, 70 or 75 Active points.

 

I wonder if some folks are put off by the prospect of figuring out the active cost of a power with +3/4 Advantages? 

 

Instead of using a calculator to figure out what the base power cost multiplied by 1.75 equals I just converted 1 3/4 to 7/4. That makes it really easy to see that a 40 point base power will become 70 active with +3/4 in total Advantages.  Figuring out Real cost is basically the same.

Before Creation Workshop and Hero Designer (Never used the DOS Hero Program) I was so used to using a calculator that I knew what everything would cost after advantages. I still had to use a calculator on Limitations, unless they were bog easy ie -1 in limitations.

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My only issues with GURPS are presentation - as you note, finding things can be a bear - and the skill cost calculation system. I understand it and can do it, but why would I want to? On the whole, if you don't mind fewer / less granular stats, GURPS is a great system for heroic and cinematic games. At that level of play, Hero vs. GURPS its really more a question of mood, style, and preference. I prefer Hero. I found, however, that GURPS for superheroes is a little... unwieldy. That's putting it kindly. For supers I would pass straight over GURPS and go for Hero, or M&M, or system designed for a specific super-hero universe.

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Yes, "unwieldly" is putting it kindly. I like GURPS. I've played many, many campaigns using GURPS over the years and will probably play more. But it works best for "real world" (or at least merely cinematic) gaming, not superheroes. I'd go so far as to say that GURPS is broken when it comes to superheroes. Or at least it was in the early versions of the Supers book. Maybe it's different in Fourth Edition.

 

For that matter, GURPS doesn't work well for really high-tech gaming either...if you want long, adventurous combats. At the higher tech levels, GURPS tends to result in combats with two outcomes: either your armor can stop everything they throw at you...or one hit and you're instantly dead. There's very little middle ground. Which may, in fact, be realistic, but it's not very cinematic/pulpish.

 

If you like skills--lots of skills, specific skills--GURPS is your thing. If you prefer a lighter, less granular system, HERO works better.

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Talking about GURPS vs. Hero on a board that only appeals to Hero players is bound to be unfairl to GURPS. That said, two comments on specific GURPS features, one good and one bad (just to be fair).

 

1. I simply don't think four characteristics works with the GURPS skill system. It's almost always best to buy up int and/or dex and buy down your skills, and this produces a very specific kind of character. It is actually much, much worse than the figured characteristics in <=5e; the distortion is all-encompassing. If I ran a GURPS game again I suspect I'd simmply rip the characteristic system out and replace it; if I found this too unwieldy or too difficult to balance, I wouldn't play GURPS.

 

2. I loved how the step-and-strike movement worked for hand-to-hand combat and how well it meshed with the facing rules and only having an active defense against one opponent. For a certain kind of campaign Hero felt bland and static by comparison. I've often thought of re-creating it in Hero, and I know how to do so, but the grognards would whine. I'd be especially motivated to do this in a gritty street level martial arts or swashbuckling campaign.

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 I'd be especially motivated to do this in a gritty street level martial arts or swashbuckling campaign.

 

Personally, this level of gritty-detailed play is where GURPS really shines.

 

When I want to run a prosaic, down-to-earth, skill-focused game GURPS tempts me.

 

I of course yell "get thee behind me satan!"

 

But, I give GURPS props. Every game has its strengths.

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Talking about GURPS vs. Hero on a board that only appeals to Hero players is bound to be unfairl to GURPS. That said, two comments on specific GURPS features, one good and one bad (just to be fair).

 

1. I simply don't think four characteristics works with the GURPS skill system. It's almost always best to buy up int and/or dex and buy down your skills, and this produces a very specific kind of character. It is actually much, much worse than the figured characteristics in <=5e; the distortion is all-encompassing. If I ran a GURPS game again I suspect I'd simmply rip the characteristic system out and replace it; if I found this too unwieldy or too difficult to balance, I wouldn't play GURPS.

 

2. I loved how the step-and-strike movement worked for hand-to-hand combat and how well it meshed with the facing rules and only having an active defense against one opponent. For a certain kind of campaign Hero felt bland and static by comparison. I've often thought of re-creating it in Hero, and I know how to do so, but the grognards would whine. I'd be especially motivated to do this in a gritty street level martial arts or swashbuckling campaign.

 

I have discussed this topic on other forums. The reception can be surprisingly hostile and quickly overtaken by allot of hyperbolic claims about Hero System that are taken as gospel (like you need calculus to make a character). That said, despite the thread title (in hindsight was poorly chosen) I didn't want to slam GURPS. It's a fine game and I think it has a superior skill system in a few ways and probably does low level realistic or mildly cinematic setting better than Hero System due to it level of detail and focus. I was just curious why long term Hero System players felt GURPS was so often (IME) considered the simpler of the pair when that hasn't been my experience. 

 

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I hope I don't need calculus to make a character in Hero; I can't do calculus.

 

I think GURPS might be simpler depending on what specifically you're trying to do with it. It has worse breakpoints and dependency issues than Hero, but that doesn't make it more complicated; arguably less complicated.

 

Having only a handful of Characteristics as opposed to dozens probably contributes to the perception of being the simpler system. But that is part of the dependency issue I mentioned.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary thinks I'll need calculus to make Genghis Khan because he's a Tartar character

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I think GURPS might be simpler depending on what specifically you're trying to do with it. It has worse breakpoints and dependency issues than Hero, but that doesn't make it more complicated; arguably less complicated.

 

Having only a handful of Characteristics as opposed to dozens probably contributes to the perception of being the simpler system. But that is part of the dependency issue I mentioned.

 

 

 

While GURPS has fewer primary characteristics, those all have derived characteristics associated with them. And, I found having to check a chart for each skill based on characteristic and difficulty level to determine the cost tedious. Not difficult, per say, just time consuming. GURPS also has a lot of modifying cost-calculations for advantages, disadvantages, powers, etc. They are just calculated using a different method from Hero. Overall, I don't think the difference is really in complexity so much as it is style - and in what the systems model best based on the design assumptions that lie at their foundations.

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As a staunch advocate of both systems, I would say that some of your experiences may be with earlier versions of the game, or perhaps early in the release of 4th edition? Because the system has continued to grow, sometimes in surprising directions, as time goes on.

 

While no system is perfect, GURPS seems to do a pretty good job of modeling what folks want out of it, without being all that difficult in play. Like Hero, much is front-loaded in character creation, but once that's out of the way, things as diverse as wacky dungeon delves, modern monster hunter style games, and action movies are just as easy to play as hard science fiction transhumanism and grittily realistic post apocalypse games.

 

They both get lumped together as "too complicated" - by which people mean they're too detailed - and "too math heavy" which tends to mean they don't want to need a calculator for simple arithmetic to build a character.

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As a staunch advocate of both systems, I would say that some of your experiences may be with earlier versions of the game, or perhaps early in the release of 4th edition? Because the system has continued to grow, sometimes in surprising directions, as time goes on.

I'm not sure who this is aimed at, but some of the things I don't like about the system do not appear to have changed nor are they likely to ever change; for example, the paucity of characteristics. At least through 3rd edition I can say from personal experience that there was hardly a character that couldn't be optimized by selling back skills and using the points to buy dex or int, or both. This seems inherent in the core assumptions of gurps; most skills are based on one of two stats, dex or int, and the game effect of buying a skill vs. buying the underlying attribute are indistinguishable. Therefore dex and int are always better buys(*) whenever the cost of raising all the Foo skills by +1 is greater than the cost of raising the underlying characteristic Foo. And since the cost of raising the skills individually is O(N) in the number of Foo skills while the cost of raising Foo is O(1), there will always be a breakpoint. In practice, that breakpoint has always been small enough that most characters should buy Foo. Stu over at Happy Jacks is a GURPS guy and yet he makes precisely the same point, so I very much doubt this has changed in 4e even with the change in cost structure.

 

Of course this happens whenever you base skills on characteristics, but the difference is in GURPS most skills depend on only one of two characteristics so most characters are in a sense one of only three types: high DEX, high INT, or high both. When the same thing happens in Hero <6e, the effect is there but less pronounced because there are more base skills, and because there are things in the system that aren't skills (in many genres you can build very effective characters with only powers, or by buying characteristics like strength and con that aren't usually skill bases). In 6e I think the effect will be still smaller, mainly because one of the primary skill bases (DEX) no longer adds to combat ability. I imagine we won't have people buying dex for spd and cv, then noticing they might as well pick up some good skill rolls cheap.

 

There are things I like about gurps, but the characteristic system is absolutely not one of them. I got quite disillusioned with it early on.

 

 

 

* Yes, it would be nice if people built their concept and didn't worry about points. Except we know they don't, and it's reasonable that they don't because otherwise the guy who optimized is going to hog the spotlight. If this were the real answer, we wouldn't have points in the first place, we'd just write down on paper what the character can do.

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I didn't really aim at anyone in particular, just saw some common notions that seem a bit outdated.

 

In 4e, you do still have the 4 core characteristics, but they can be broken down (Strength into Lifting Strength, Striking Strength and HP, for example). While you can buy down skills to bump characteristics, but a) if you reduce that cost by selling back secondary characteristics, you start hitting disadvantage limits and B) with IQ and DX at 20/level, and no 1/2 point skills in 4e, it's much less likely to be as broadly useful. There are also rules that a GM can implement if he feels like this is still being abused, whereby skills can be changed to be associated with other characteristics in different situations, making "relative skill level" - that is, the level above your characteristic you buy it at, immediately valuable.

 

If the GM isn't assiduous about ensuring that "selling back" secondary characteristics is included in the disadvantage total, and the limit to disads isn't maintained at a reasonable point, the system can definitely be "played" - much like you could in Hero 5 or earlier, with STR and CON being remarkably cheap if you sold back defenses and Stun.

 

I definitely agree that it can be an issue if not nipped in the bud, and look forward to a 5th edition one day that may go so far as to do away with the basic 4 characteristics altogether, in favor of a standard base of 10 in all skills, and no figured stats at all.

 

 

 

I'm not sure who this is aimed at, but some of the things I don't like about the system do not appear to have changed nor are they likely to ever change; for example, the paucity of characteristics. At least through 3rd edition I can say from personal experience that there was hardly a character that couldn't be optimized by selling back skills and using the points to buy dex or int, or both. This seems inherent in the core assumptions of gurps; most skills are based on one of two stats, dex or int, and the game effect of buying a skill vs. buying the underlying attribute are indistinguishable. Therefore dex and int are always better buys(*) whenever the cost of raising all the Foo skills by +1 is greater than the cost of raising the underlying characteristic Foo. And since the cost of raising the skills individually is O(N) in the number of Foo skills while the cost of raising Foo is O(1), there will always be a breakpoint. In practice, that breakpoint has always been small enough that most characters should buy Foo. Stu over at Happy Jacks is a GURPS guy and yet he makes precisely the same point, so I very much doubt this has changed in 4e even with the change in cost structure.

Of course this happens whenever you base skills on characteristics, but the difference is in GURPS most skills depend on only one of two characteristics so most characters are in a sense one of only three types: high DEX, high INT, or high both. When the same thing happens in Hero <6e, the effect is there but less pronounced because there are more base skills, and because there are things in the system that aren't skills (in many genres you can build very effective characters with only powers, or by buying characteristics like strength and con that aren't usually skill bases). In 6e I think the effect will be still smaller, mainly because one of the primary skill bases (DEX) no longer adds to combat ability. I imagine we won't have people buying dex for spd and cv, then noticing they might as well pick up some good skill rolls cheap.

There are things I like about gurps, but the characteristic system is absolutely not one of them. I got quite disillusioned with it early on.



* Yes, it would be nice if people built their concept and didn't worry about points. Except we know they don't, and it's reasonable that they don't because otherwise the guy who optimized is going to hog the spotlight. If this were the real answer, we wouldn't have points in the first place, we'd just write down on paper what the character can do.

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