Greywind Posted November 23, 2013 Report Share Posted November 23, 2013 Yeah, having George draw one of mine has always been a fantasy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted November 24, 2013 Report Share Posted November 24, 2013 Lack of content aside, the game's not in too bad of a shape as far as basic systems. It seems like a good baseline for an MMO now. I'm hoping that they'll get to a spot they're satisfied with for the basic gameplay (they've been doing things like making passes on power sets, adding auras, etc.), they'll devote some resources to content or to adding player generated content. (The Foundry.) I think it still has potential, but it's not getting as many resources devoted to it as their other games. If they added a Foundry and a few zones that were built from the ground up to be Champions zones (rather than retreads of zones they designed for the Marvel setting), I think they'd be in really decent shape. Our only other option at the moment for a super hero MMO is DCU Online, and while it looks nice, it strikes me as being very shallow. No real comment on the original post, as I don't want to be piling on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HalloweenKnight Posted November 25, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 25, 2013 Since City of Titans got their Kickstarter funding so quickly and so easily... Why couldn't someone do the same and instead make a true "HERO System Online"? Are the guys at HeroGames just not interested in such a thing? Because it seems a *lot* of HERO System PnP players certainly are... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted November 25, 2013 Report Share Posted November 25, 2013 Since City of Titans got their Kickstarter funding so quickly and so easily... Why couldn't someone do the same and instead make a true "HERO System Online"? Are the guys at HeroGames just not interested in such a thing? Because it seems a *lot* of HERO System PnP players certainly are... Quantify "a lot". The company recently downsized and has relied on Kickstarter just to print a couple of their books. Add to that the poor resukts from Champions Online still fresh in everyone's mind and I don't really see the support being there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaycheckHero Posted November 25, 2013 Report Share Posted November 25, 2013 Consider that Hero's current software offerings, while serviceable, are neither pretty nor slick, and I don't think HG can afford the development costs it would take even for them to be pretty and slick. It certainly didn't happen when HG (any incarnation of HG) was at its peak. Character building software only needs to know the chargen rules, and a combat manager needs only know the combat portion of the rules. Also, both products are aimed at people who know the system to a degree, and thus can afford to not cover corner cases where someone who knows the system can tweak it by hand. An MMO would have to know all the rules, would have to work transparently in all cases for someone who knows nothing about Champions, and then add a lot of actual content. It would have to have great graphics (I think comic fans would reject a MMO with perfect gameplay and story if they didn't like the look) and great gameplay as well, issues that don't even arise in the kinds of tools Hero has. In short, you don't have to be a programmer to see that an MMO is a *much* larger project than anything HG ever attempted. Now, given that even in it's best days HG has never developed anything at the standard required to sell desktop software, how can you imagine that in it's current financial state it could tackle an enormous project that would have to have first-rate graphics and gameplay to even stand a chance? Now that the copyrights are split and HG doesn't even own the Champions Universe, it's even less likely that anyone could get the relevant licenses even if they thought they could do the job. I think the odds of there *ever* being a "real" Champions MMO were probably nil before the sale of CU, and now are certainly indistinguishable from zero. I'm just glad there actually is a functioning entity named Hero Games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted November 25, 2013 Report Share Posted November 25, 2013 Err...why stop there? It has nothing to do with HG's financial state (past or present). How many companies do you see releasing MMOs? Distinct companies, mind you. Answer: very few. There is a HUGE amount of work involved in the underlying engine, which is why games like Doom, Halflife, etc. were all considered revolutionary -- they introduced new engines to the mix. Once you've developed the underlying engine, you still need to invest in the development and implementation of graphics, layering onto the engine and building your game. This is another massive investment. You'll need to be able to develop your engine and release the game within a short timeframe (so you don't fall into the Duke Nukem Forever trap). This will require an entire team of developers working on it, with strong project management and a decided vision from management driving everything. i.e. a not-insignificant business setup. Look at the size and structure of the big players in the market and you get an idea of the resources needed. This says nothing of the infrastructure needed to support your MMO once you develop it. To be done right, you're talking millions. Many of them. Ignoring funding and focusing solely on business for a moment, you need to justify that investment. Why would your game engine be better than the others out there? Because you use a roleplaying system that is known for both its flexibility and its complexity? That makes so little business sense it's hard to even imagine getting to a pitch meeting with it. It's a guaranteed loser. What would you need to make something like this possible? At a ballpark estimate, someone (or someones) with about $50 million US in disposable money that they had no desire to ever see again. Literally someone willing to throw away millions of dollars on a vanity project that is effectively guaranteed to NOT make them their money back. That's your starting point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraven Kor Posted November 25, 2013 Report Share Posted November 25, 2013 Why not, rather than an MMO, it be a "toolkit" for other MMO / RPG creators?In other words, you build the engine, then some sample campaigns with multiplayer support, and let someone else "turn it into an MMO" should they desire. Again, HERO System as a toolkit to create games; rather than a game in and of itself. Which is exactly what HERO system is for pen and paper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted November 25, 2013 Report Share Posted November 25, 2013 So spend millions to make the game engine and then don't make an actual, marketable game? That doesn't rrally sound more reasonable. Where are these people who will realize how amazing Hero software is and spend millions of their own to produce games with this totally untried software? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted November 25, 2013 Report Share Posted November 25, 2013 Why not, rather than an MMO, it be a "toolkit" for other MMO / RPG creators? In other words, you build the engine, then some sample campaigns with multiplayer support, and let someone else "turn it into an MMO" should they desire. Again, HERO System as a toolkit to create games; rather than a game in and of itself. Which is exactly what HERO system is for pen and paper So, in a dwindling market, you'd suggest that HG take up a new line (development of an MMO engine), which would require the lionshare of the investment required to launch an MMO (read: MILLIONS of dollars), knowledge of a business line that they have NOTHING to do with, and would place them in competition with some of the major players in the industry. That would have to have one HELL of a business justification behind it. I'm assuming you've done the basic math, yes? Actually...nix that...I'm assuming nothing of the sort, as even the most basic of business analyses would show this to be a HORRIBLE idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraven Kor Posted November 25, 2013 Report Share Posted November 25, 2013 CryEngine lets game companies do this with the physics / graphics engine. So make HERO do it for the RPG mechanics side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted November 25, 2013 Report Share Posted November 25, 2013 *facepalm* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraven Kor Posted November 25, 2013 Report Share Posted November 25, 2013 So spend millions to make the game engine and then don't make an actual, marketable game? That doesn't rrally sound more reasonable. Where are these people who will realize how amazing Hero software is and spend millions of their own to produce games with this totally untried software? No. Make a license-able game mechanics engine for RPG's. With default campaigns to start with. Players can buy HERO System Game with the default campaigns, and toolkit their own campaigns like NWN did. Game-makers can license the HERO System Mechanics Engine to make their own games, and not have to create the game mechanics whole-sale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraven Kor Posted November 25, 2013 Report Share Posted November 25, 2013 How is that a facepalm? Look at Oblivion Mods and such and how that engine has been used for some 8 or 10 games now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted November 25, 2013 Report Share Posted November 25, 2013 Where to even start? Let me explain...no...there is too much. Let me sum up: 1. HG has zero knowledge, experience, or "street cred" in the MMO industry. 2. The underlying engine (CryEngine, in your example) is what DETERMINES THE RULES. You don't layer game rules onto the underlying engine, you build the underlying engine to define your rules and mechanics. 3. The need to keep up with the market means that you need to assemble a relatively large team to build the project in a short timeframe. This means you're talking about putting together and supporting a relatively large corporate structure. Without the experience, knowledge, or funding to do so. 4. The nature of an MMO requires a large setup of networked servers to handle the load balancing and general operations of your game system. This translates to many thousands in monthly outlay...and doesn't even touch on ongoing maintenance and administration of your systems. 5. The nature of an MMO requires a certain "seed" population to take off and succeed. If you were to get the ENTIRETY of the HG fanbase to buy into your concept (note: this is laughable at best), you would be on the VERY light side of the starter seed. That is not the makings of success -- it's a recipe for utter failure. The list goes on....but this is beyond pointless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaycheckHero Posted November 25, 2013 Report Share Posted November 25, 2013 How about if we make this simple: how much money do you have for up-front development costs? Name a specific figure that you can spend. If it isn't enough to fund development, we don't need to have the conversation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted November 25, 2013 Report Share Posted November 25, 2013 No. Make a license-able game mechanics engine for RPG's. With default campaigns to start with. Players can buy HERO System Game with the default campaigns, and toolkit their own campaigns like NWN did. Game-makers can license the HERO System Mechanics Engine to make their own games, and not have to create the game mechanics whole-sale. So spend millions to make the game engine and then more millions to make an actual marketable game? That sounds even less reasonable. Where are the people going to come from to develop your game engine? What are you going to pay them? Where are the funds going to come from? Where's the (rather extensive) hardware going to come from to support your MMO? Where are the funds going to come from to purchase it? Who's going to maintain it? Where are the players going to come from for your game? How many players do you think it would take to make the game succeed as an MMO if you were to give it away for free? What would you need to charge players in order to meet your monthly operating costs? What would you need to charge players in order to meet both your monthly operating costs as well as make up for the initial investment in development time? How about ongoing development and enhancement (or did you think that the system will sell and stay current for more than six months without a steady and constant stream of upgrades)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaycheckHero Posted November 25, 2013 Report Share Posted November 25, 2013 It turns out to be easy to become filty rich. Step one is to start with a hundred million dollars. This is a guaranteed plan that has never failed when followed correctly. It turns out this plan is relevant to the subject of the thread, but exactly how is left as an exercise to the reader. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemming Posted November 25, 2013 Report Share Posted November 25, 2013 Reminds me of conversations about how to make a small fortune: Start with a large fortune and open a restaurant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HalloweenKnight Posted November 25, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 25, 2013 Quantify "a lot". The company recently downsized and has relied on Kickstarter just to print a couple of their books. Add to that the poor resukts from Champions Online still fresh in everyone's mind and I don't really see the support being there. Oh, so, there aren't dozens of people who read these boards, play the HERO System PnP and love it while at the same time are displeased, disgruntled, and/or disgusted with the final product of Champions Online? Dozens constitutes "a lot" to me. I don't know if one or two dozen people is enough to quantify as being "support" for an MMO game project, though, so, you may be right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted November 25, 2013 Report Share Posted November 25, 2013 Oh, so, there aren't dozens of people who read these boards, play the HERO System PnP and love it while at the same time are displeased, disgruntled, and/or disgusted with the final product of Champions Online? Dozens constitutes "a lot" to me. I don't know if one or two dozen people is enough to quantify as being "support" for an MMO game project, though, so, you may be right.I never said or implied that Hero didn't have dozens of fans. Don't put words in my mouth and then bite my head off for something I never said. When talking about a multimillion dollar endever "dozens" of people is not "a lot". I'd go as far as to say it is very few. Did you bother to read any of the other replies after mine which explicitly detailed why this wouldn't work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HalloweenKnight Posted November 25, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 25, 2013 I never said or implied that Hero didn't have dozens of fans. Don't put words in my mouth and then bite my head off for something I never said. When talking about a multimillion dollar endever "dozens" of people is not "a lot". I'd go as far as to say it is very few. Did you bother to read any of the other replies after mine which explicitly detailed why this wouldn't work? Yes. And I said you may be right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted November 25, 2013 Report Share Posted November 25, 2013 MMO = MASSIVELY multiplayer online (game). In order to even be feasible as a starting "seed" you need thousands - tens of thousands of users. Starting your numbering at dozens is about the same as "none" -- it shows a complete and utter failure of the support needed to even begin thinking about something like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HalloweenKnight Posted November 25, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 25, 2013 Our first expense is the cost of the Kickstarter itself. This goes to various companies such as Amazon, to Kickstarter, as well as the cost of the perks and add-ons. This comes to about 10% of the total. Then there are taxes, which we estimate can run us up to 12% of the total. So, before anything else, we’re out $70,000. Since we are developing the game using the Unreal Engine, and the Kickstarter counts as revenue, we owe Epic Games, the company which makes the Unreal Engine royalties. That comes to about $70,000, as well. We’re rounding up, of course, and estimating based on the best numbers we have available. By rounding up, we buy margin in case an unexpected cost, tax or fee enters the picture. This is a direct quote straight off of the City of Titans Kickstarter page. $140,000 for Kickstarter fees and the Unreal Engine alone. They go on to earmark another $180,000 for more software, servers, lawyers and programmers. Someone was asking for dollar amounts needed to get "HERO System Online" up and running? There you go: $320,000. Not even a million dollars. And as of this post they've exceeded their Kickstarter budget funding and currently have $678,189 to develop City of Titans with. OK, so, you may scoff and say "Well, hey, thats City of Titans...not HERO System Online! They'd be two completely different things!" And you'd be right. But that's where programming the game and tweaking the numbers behind it to make it emulate the HERO System factors in. Also, I posted a "HERO System Online, Anyone?" discussion thread under "Kickstarter Projects"...just to see how much support the idea would actually get. Still too early to tell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted November 25, 2013 Report Share Posted November 25, 2013 Incorrect. That would be the dollar amounts needed to get another Champions Online clone up and running. NOT (repeat: NOT) Hero System. The underlying engine would need to be written to support the rules. So start adding in those millions of dollars. Then start talking about hardware, ongoing development, and employees. And hosting. And you haven't even begun to address INTEREST. Or feasibility. Whose interpretation of the rules will this mythical system be working off of? Yours? Someone else's? Even if you were to be gifted with a completely tweakable engine that you could somehow customize to a mythical interpretation of the rules that everyone agreed with, you haven't even developed the reason that people would leave the multiple existing platforms for your system. The market is not there. At all. The whole idea is full of fail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted November 25, 2013 Report Share Posted November 25, 2013 Since we are developing the game using the Unreal Engine, and the Kickstarter counts as revenue, we owe Epic Games, the company which makes the Unreal Engine royalties. That comes to about $70,000, as well. We’re rounding up, of course, and estimating based on the best numbers we have available. By rounding up, we buy margin in case an unexpected cost, tax or fee enters the picture. This is a direct quote straight off of the City of Titans Kickstarter page. $140,000 for Kickstarter fees and the Unreal Engine alone. They go on to earmark another $180,000 for more software, servers, lawyers and programmers. Someone was asking for dollar amounts needed to get "HERO System Online" up and running? There you go: $320,000. Not even a million dollars. They are using an existing engine, not creating one from scratch. There is no comparison here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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