Champions Online Isn't a Computer Version of Champions As I Would Like It

[Tasha]

Our first expense is the cost of the Kickstarter itself. This goes to various companies such as Amazon, to Kickstarter, as well as the cost of the perks and add-ons. This comes to about 10% of the total. Then there are taxes, which we estimate can run us up to 12% of the total. 

 

So, before anything else, we’re out $70,000.

 

Since we are developing the game using the Unreal Engine, and the Kickstarter counts as revenue, we owe Epic Games, the company which makes the Unreal Engine royalties. That comes to about $70,000, as well.

 

We’re rounding up, of course, and estimating based on the best numbers we have available. By rounding up, we buy margin in case an unexpected cost, tax or fee enters the picture.

 

This is a direct quote straight off of the City of Titans Kickstarter page.

 

$140,000 for Kickstarter fees and the Unreal Engine alone.

 

They go on to earmark another $180,000 for more software, servers, lawyers and programmers.

 

Someone was asking for dollar amounts needed to get "HERO System Online" up and running? There you go: $320,000.

 

Not even a million dollars. 

 

And as of this post they've exceeded their Kickstarter budget funding and currently have $678,189 to develop City of Titans with.

 

OK, so, you may scoff and say "Well, hey, thats City of Titans...not HERO System Online! They'd be two completely different things!"

 

And you'd be right. But that's where programming the game and tweaking the numbers behind it to make it emulate the HERO System factors in.

 

Also, I posted a "HERO System Online, Anyone?" discussion thread under "Kickstarter Projects"...just to see how much support the idea would actually get. Still too early to tell.

Actually that project will end up running into the Millions. All PC and Console game budgets run into the Millions. It's all about paying the Engineers, Artists (you will need a TON of artists), Designers, with Managers, PR people, IT people (both Studio Infrastructure and later Server Infrastructure), Lawyers, Accountants, Buying equipment for everyone. and many others that I am not remembering. The Main reason that I haven't supported City of Titans and the Pathfinder Kickstarters is because of both projects are done by people who have no track record in the PC gaming industry and seem to be under estimating costs to keep KS investors willing to fund their boondoggle of a project. On top of all of this, you have rights issues for a new Champions MMO. Perfect World Currently has the Licence for the Champions IP for PC and Console gaming. I would imagine that they will have those rights for many more years (at least till they decide to take down the Champs Online MMO and end service on it).

 

Dan is right about everything he has said about this project. Heck the poor showing of Champions Online will tend to dissuade any potential real investors that the Champions IP isn't compelling enough to merit another game. The game system alone is unlikely to appeal to anyone but the most dedicated Hero Grognard. Most Middleware tends to focus on things that are hard to do in a video game like realistic Physics, Rendering out 3d environments, Pathing, Networking and other things that are TRULY math intensive. Making game systems are nothing when building a game esp when compared to the parts of the game that are actually hard

[HalloweenKnight]

Well shoot.

 

But even with all the logistics aside...

 

It's still a nice thing to wish for, don'cha think? A Champions Online with actual HERO System numerics behind it?

 

We know it can be done. And we also now know that:

 

1. It would be easier to change lead into gold using only Q-tips and Windex

 

2. The makers of Q-tips and Windex would both need to lisence-out the rights to use their products for the project

 

3. An initial investment of $320,000 is required to buy the lead

 

4. "Do It Yourself Gold Online" had such an abysmal reception that neither Q-Tips nor Windex would ever possibly be interested in lending their IP to a new project

 

Heh! 

[Kraven Kor]

I never said it could be done so far as money / logistics.

I said it could be done so far as mechanics.

 

And with crowd-funding, the limit of what you can do is determined by the limits of how many buy into the project.

 

HERO System is not Shadowrun, I get that.

 

But nothing would ever happen were those who make it happen to listen to those who say it cannot be done

 

But by all means I will butt out of the conversation, having been told in no uncertain terms on several occasions by actual HERO System Staff that I am, apparently, a lack-wit...  I was merely making conversation.

[Tasha]

Well shoot.

 

But even with all the logistics aside...

 

It's still a nice thing to wish for, don'cha think? A Champions Online with actual HERO System numerics behind it?

 

We know it can be done. And we also now know that:

 

1. It would be easier to change lead into gold using only Q-tips and Windex

 

2. The makers of Q-tips and Windex would both need to lisence-out the rights to use their products for the project

 

3. An initial investment of $320,000 is required to buy the lead

 

4. "Do It Yourself Gold Online" had such an abysmal reception that neither Q-Tips nor Windex would ever possibly be interested in lending their IP to a new project

 

Heh! 

BTW that $320k that feels so lowball to us, is probably assuming that you already have a decent development studio put together, and just need enough money to create a decent Demo to show the REAL investors.

 

Ya know, I am not hung up so much by the system under the hood. I just hated the "Action RPG" premise that made CO so unfun to play. Also, the focus on a Console launch that never happened also over simplified the design and contributed to the crappy system that CO uses. I am not at all convinced that using the Hero System would have made any real difference in game play. I think it just would have made Player and Developer's lives harder by using a system that is notoriously hard to balance even for 20+ year Veterans of the game. IMHO you will never have a PC game that has the flexability of the PnP game. Giving players that flexability just leads to Gimped builds by novices and Munchkin builds that overpower the content. So you will always have canned(Prebuilt) powersets and have to deal with playing someone else's vision for how your powers will work. It IS possible to allow players to change how the Powers LOOK because that doesn't change anything about the game's play (ex if you make the abilities invisible or a color that doesn't show up easially).

 

I am hoping that I am wrong about City of Titans. I REALLY hope they can ship something that is fun. I hope they also take time and learn the lessions that Cryptic clearly didn't learn. Though Paragon Studios did seem to do a better job of Development once split off from Cryptic. City of Heroes always felt more like City of Street Thugs, and managed to not have a very epic superhero feel. So a game that was a bit more like City of Heroes, but had more superhero battles and somehow overcame the whole how does one do loot dropped upgrades that still feel right.

[Vondy]

Pretty sure Cryptic didn't make up Shadow Destroyer either.

 

Just checked and Book of the Destroyer was published a year before Champions Online went live. And wasn't BotD a 5E book?

 

Shadow destroyer is from.... Champions: New Millennium. Originally, at least. Steve worked him into the mainstream Champions Universe when it came back from Fusion undeath.

[bigbywolfe]

Shadow destroyer is from.... Champions: New Millennium. Originally, at least. Steve worked him into the mainstream Champions Universe when it came back from Fusion undeath.

In which case those blaming Cryptic for his very existence are way off base.

[CptPatriot]

To be honest, having Destroyer as magic based, as depicted in Champions: New Millennium, was an interesting idea and I liked it. In fact, there was a lot about C: NM's setting that I liked.

[Vondy]

To be honest, having Destroyer as magic based, as depicted in Champions: New Millennium, was an interesting idea and I liked it. In fact, there was a lot about C: NM's setting that I liked.

 

I agree, even if the image in your signature is ostentatiously over-large.

 

That said, I liked a lot of the setting info from Champions: New Millennium.

 

I think people hated Dark Destroyer because he wasn't Classical Destroyer.

 

But both are interesting and have potential.

 

Personally, I ran a solo-game centered on a modified version of "Team Defender."

 

It worked really well.

[CptPatriot]

Well, I apologize for my signature size, I'm still in the process of condensing it. I had to change it when the forums changed to its current configuration.

 

Why did C: NM fail anyway?

[Greywind]

Very few liked it because it was step away from the Hero System?

[Tasha]

In which case those blaming Cryptic for his very existence are way off base.

CNM Destroyer is Magical, but other than that has little in Common with Shadow Destroyer. "The Destroyer" from CNM is a Magical Creature from the Beginnings of time. Shadow Destroyer is the Dark Counterpart for Defender. He's just mirror James Harmon III with Dark Magic as his background. So I never put the two together as being the same creature.

[Tasha]

Well, I apologize for my signature size, I'm still in the process of condensing it. I had to change it when the forums changed to its current configuration.

 

Why did C: NM fail anyway?

IMHO it was released when 4e was getting long in the tooth. Hero Games was looking quite unstable and them going with R.Tal as a publisher was promising for keeping the company independant. CNM released with the New System Fuzion so named for the way that it was a blend of Interlock and Hero. There were LOTS of great ideas in Fuzion, but unfortunatly Fuzion wasn't feature complete in it's powerbuilding set. Which caused frustration in the fanbase. Also the idea that you would create powers in 4e and convert them into Fuzion by dividing Active costs by 5 was a real annoying kludge.

 

Also, the New Champions Universe Killed off everyone in a Secret Wars kind of event. So Fans of certain Villains were POed at losing their favorites. On top of this there was a move from Bronze Age feel to an Iron Age world and many Villains and Hero got new looks which were derivative of both Anime and Image Comics looks. So all in all CNM and Fuzion caused a ton of Fan hate.

 

There were and still are people who saw the good parts of both the CNM world and Fuzion. They just got drowned out by all of the Fan Hate. Eventually as the supplements were published the Missing parts of the Power Set were added to Fuzion, but it was too late by then. Funny thing was that many fan Favorite Villains were starting to show up as being alive. Sometime after that we get the Cybergames debacle, and the Hero System 5.0 Manuscript being comissioned.

[Vondy]

Well, I apologize for my signature size, I'm still in the process of condensing it. I had to change it when the forums changed to its current configuration.

 

Why did C: NM fail anyway?

 

They didn't use Hero System. They used Fuzion. Get thee behind me Satan!

 

History lesson. In the beginning their was Champions. Then there were genre books using modified versions of the champions system, and new editions of champions itself. Then, came GURPS, which presented the notion of a unified rules-set for all genres. Call it "mechanical orthodoxy," if you will.

 

Realizing that differing iterations of their original rules-set had rendered the Hero Games product line schismatic and internally heterodox in many cases, it was decided some systemic ecumenism was called for. This was, of course, in the name of market evangelism. The result of this grand effort was the Hero System, which also drove Champions 4th Ed. The two were inexorably bound together in a diune unity of two hypostates. Champions had been born again as Hero, and champions was very hero of very hero.

 

Then Champions: New Millennium came and presented us champions without.... champions.

 

It was the great fuzionite heresy and few were drawn to it. Hence its failure.

 

Hero lay fallow until DOJ and the gaming prophet Long came and resurrected it from the dead, revivifying with magisterial explanations of many doctrinal issues which had -- due to the terseness of 4th edition -- left the Hero flock perplexed and, in some cases, acting according to heretical interpretations of mechanical dogma (rules). As a result, we had the Fifth Hero Council and Sixth Hero Council, in which El Hero Pepi Steve I, speaking ex cathedra, produced new encyclicals to modernize and re-popularize the gospel of the one true Hero System.

 

And here we are brother cptpatriot. Peace be upon you.

[Vondy]

 

IMHO it was released when 4e was getting long in the tooth...

There were and still are people who saw the good parts of both the CNM world and Fuzion. They just got drowned out by all of the Fan Hate. Eventually as the supplements were published the Missing parts of the Power Set were added to Fuzion, but it was too late by then. Funny thing was that many fan Favorite Villains were starting to show up as being alive. Sometime after that we get the Cybergames debacle, and the Hero System 5.0 Manuscript being comissioned.

 

I do think Champions: New Millennium had some good setting material. And, Fuzion as a system had some interesting ideas. Some bits of both made it into 5th edition, and now 6th. I think the change was too radical for a fan-base who had not been properly prepared for it. It might have been better to have the setting material be independent and allow the fans to use either 4th edition or Fuzion to run it with as they saw fit. Of course, its possible that herodom assembled was and remains deeply orthodox and wary of reformers by nature.

[Lord Liaden]

Shadow destroyer is from.... Champions: New Millennium. Originally, at least. Steve worked him into the mainstream Champions Universe when it came back from Fusion undeath.

 

Not precisely. When you read the origin of the CNM Dr. Destroyer, it strongly parallels that of Sharna-Gorak the Destroyer for current CU continuity, as presented in Champions Universe, Hidden Lands,, and The Atlantean Age. Shadow D does bear a few similarities, particularly in using both magic and tech, but being an anti-James Harmon from another dimension is brand new.

[Vondy]

 

Not precisely. When you read the origin of the CNM Dr. Destroyer, it strongly parallels that of Sharna-Gorak the Destroyer for current CU continuity, as presented in Champions Universe, Hidden Lands,, and The Atlantean Age. Shadow D does bear a few similarities, particularly in using both magic and tech, but being an anti-James Harmon from another dimension is brand new.

 

I would argue you are engaging in Talmudic hair splitting. Steve took the idea and ran with it.

[sinanju]

Actually that project will end up running into the Millions. All PC and Console game budgets run into the Millions. It's all about paying the Engineers, Artists (you will need a TON of artists), Designers, with Managers, PR people, IT people (both Studio Infrastructure and later Server Infrastructure), Lawyers, Accountants, Buying equipment for everyone. and many others that I am not remembering. The Main reason that I haven't supported City of Titans and the Pathfinder Kickstarters is because of both projects are done by people who have no track record in the PC gaming industry and seem to be under estimating costs to keep KS investors willing to fund their boondoggle of a project. On top of all of this, you have rights issues for a new Champions MMO. Perfect World Currently has the Licence for the Champions IP for PC and Console gaming. I would imagine that they will have those rights for many more years (at least till they decide to take down the Champs Online MMO and end service on it).

 

Dan is right about everything he has said about this project. Heck the poor showing of Champions Online will tend to dissuade any potential real investors that the Champions IP isn't compelling enough to merit another game. The game system alone is unlikely to appeal to anyone but the most dedicated Hero Grognard. Most Middleware tends to focus on things that are hard to do in a video game like realistic Physics, Rendering out 3d environments, Pathing, Networking and other things that are TRULY math intensive. Making game systems are nothing when building a game esp when compared to the parts of the game that are actually hard

 

Yes.

 

Video games--especially gigantic MMO games--are a bigger industry now than HOLLYWOOD. Major games take many millions of dollars and thousands of people to create and maintain. Producing these games requires a huge investment, just like making movies (barring small art films) takes a huge investment. And, like movies, everyone remembers the big, flashy successes but not so much the failed projects that soaked up huge quantities of money but never went anywhere...if they were ever even finished.

[Darren Watts]

 

 

Are the guys at HeroGames just not interested in such a thing? Because it seems a *lot* of HERO System PnP players certainly are...

 

Ah, so much this. Yeah, Hero is "just not interested." It's got nothing to do with the fact that the entire PNP fanbase of Hero is less than 1% of the number of players you need to have a successful MMO, or that Champions Online itself cost more than 100 times the annual revenue of Hero to make as it was. Why, if Hero's owners weren't snoozing away at their desks, who knows what they could accomplish? dw

[Lord Liaden]

I would argue you are engaging in Talmudic hair splitting. Steve took the idea and ran with it.

 

No disrespect intended, but if someone publicly asserts something as fact, and someone else has information to the contrary, I don't consider it hair splitting to provide clarification. Just to be certain I wasn't mis-remembering what I'd read, though, I asked Steve Long for definitive answers.

 

Lord Liaden, on 27 Nov 2013 - 12:46 AM, said:

 

Hi, Steve,

 

Sorry to bother you, but I was hoping you could clear up a couple of points. One, which party was it who first came up with the concept of Shadow Destroyer, you and Hero Games, or Cryptic Studios? Two, was your version of Dr. Destroyer for the Champions: New Millenium setting part of the inspiration for Sharna-Gorak the Destroyer?

 

Rather than trust my recollections and pass on faulty info, I thought I should get the straight skinny from the source.

 

Thanks for listening,

LL

 

 

Steve Long, on 27 Nov 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

 

1. As far as I can recall Shadow Destroyer was pretty much entirely Cryptic's concept. I may have talked it over with them and contributed an idea or two, at most. They deserve full credit for him and all the related story stuff.

 

2. Not that I recall, and certainly not consciously. But I can't say for certain that it didn't influence me subconsciously -- that, after all, being the nature of the subconscious.

[Kraven Kor]

Ah, so much this. Yeah, Hero is "just not interested." It's got nothing to do with the fact that the entire PNP fanbase of Hero is less than 1% of the number of players you need to have a successful MMO, or that Champions Online itself cost more than 100 times the annual revenue of Hero to make as it was. Why, if Hero's owners weren't snoozing away at their desks, who knows what they could accomplish? dw

 

I still think it could be done as a non-MMO deal, similar to Neverwinter Nights, using an older engine for the graphics, without it being a multi-million dollar affair.

 

Again, we understand (or, some of us do) the constraints and if anyone is "angry" that HERO Games won't do this, that is a personal problem and not much you can do.

 

With crowd-funding, someone could come up with the $$$ figure that would be needed, throw it at a wall, and see if it sticks (via people funding it.)

 

You guys know better than any of us what is or isn't possible, feasible, etc.  So my comments are more along the lines of "sad it won't ever happen" rather than "OH GOD WHY AREN'T YOU DOING THIS?"  But I will still repeat my belief that it could work, mechanically, *if* someone had a way to come up with the funds successfully.  And I think it could even make money, again, *if managed and marketed properly.*  Hell, find a failed or similar project with some assets to re-use and start there, on the cheap.

 

Otherwise, all crowd-funding of video games asking for less than umpteen-million-dollars are lies and scams, and I know for a fact that this is not true, being the proud owner and player of a variety of independent games I crowd-funded whose graphics may be out of date, but whose gameplay is unique and brilliant and fun.  I have also seen the opposite end of this, naturally, and crowd-funded some real duds.

 

HERO Games has not been in the habit of publishing sub-standard material, in my opinion, for some time.  I would expect any such endeavor to be the same, and highly doubt I would end up regretting having funded such a project, were the project to end up being funded.

[Simon]

Please spend some time thinking about the differences between an open-ended rule system like HERO and the deterministic rules engine needed for any game/electronic offering.

 

I suspect that you'll find that it is not possible "mechanically" as you propose.

[IndianaJoe3]

Well, what are we trying to accomplish here?

• A Champions Online that we, Hero System fans, are ecstatic about? Not gonna happen. There's not enough popular interest/money. Sorry.
• A Hero System Rules toolkit for an open-source game engine like Cube 2? That's more reasonable. I doubt we could do a full Hero implementation, but I think 75% is possible. Maybe not easy, but possible.

[Tasha]

I still think it could be done as a non-MMO deal, similar to Neverwinter Nights, using an older engine for the graphics, without it being a multi-million dollar affair.

 

Again, we understand (or, some of us do) the constraints and if anyone is "angry" that HERO Games won't do this, that is a personal problem and not much you can do.

 

With crowd-funding, someone could come up with the $$$ figure that would be needed, throw it at a wall, and see if it sticks (via people funding it.)

 

You guys know better than any of us what is or isn't possible, feasible, etc.  So my comments are more along the lines of "sad it won't ever happen" rather than "OH GOD WHY AREN'T YOU DOING THIS?"  But I will still repeat my belief that it could work, mechanically, *if* someone had a way to come up with the funds successfully.  And I think it could even make money, again, *if managed and marketed properly.*  Hell, find a failed or similar project with some assets to re-use and start there, on the cheap.

 

Otherwise, all crowd-funding of video games asking for less than umpteen-million-dollars are lies and scams, and I know for a fact that this is not true, being the proud owner and player of a variety of independent games I crowd-funded whose graphics may be out of date, but whose gameplay is unique and brilliant and fun.  I have also seen the opposite end of this, naturally, and crowd-funded some real duds.

 

HERO Games has not been in the habit of publishing sub-standard material, in my opinion, for some time.  I would expect any such endeavor to be the same, and highly doubt I would end up regretting having funded such a project, were the project to end up being funded.

 

At Dan and Darren pointed out. Hero Games/DOJ isn't a Computer Gaming Studio. I know that some of the Original Hero Folk are in the Computer Gaming industry, but mostly as Developers (ie they make the Quests and Storylines for the game). So assuming that you don't need those people you still need Artists, Engineers (Programmers) and of course tons of Computers, software etc.

 

How about this. Work on the backend system. Build the Powers, how characters level up, making sure that everyone remains balanced against one another. Villains etc. Heck, you could even publish the whole thing as a Champions Mega Campaign.

[Tasha]

I may not have mentioned it in my last post. A CRPG still takes millions of dollars to make due to the Designer and Art Assets that need to be generated. Hiring that many Artists and level designers isn't cheap. On top of that even if you do use an established engine, you still need to licence it and that costs big bucks. You then need a crew of crack Engineers to actually wrestle that engine into something that will actually work with your game.

 

I think that any financial backer will take one look at the Lack of Success that Champions Online had and conclude that there's nothing worth investing in for the CRPG market.

[Christopher]

BTW No mmo would be able to use the whole Hero System. The game is balanced on the edge of a dime and requires a TON of GM work to make sure that Characters aren't too powerful or too whimpy. Heck, with the system CO uses they have struggled with balance issues. IMHO you will never see a PC or Console game that uses the Hero System to the extent that most people say they want. It just wouldn't work, and would be a TON of work to get it to work.

Agreed. No Computer game will ever* be able to be as good as the PnP Game it's based on.

Or rather: It will not be able to copy what is good about the PnP version.

 

C-RPG and PnP-RGP are totally different mediums. Expecting a Computer to give you the experience of PnP game is like going to the ISS, walking out without a Space Suit and wondering why you cannot breath.

The part where computers are better are Graphics, Counting Stuff and doing stuff regulary automatically**. Both things the PnP variant is not that good at.

 

 

*Except for significant Advantages in Artifical Intelligence for home use, of course.

 

**It's so awesomely good at it, most Computer games are based around it or have whole concepts based around it. Heck, they managed to simulate and fake real time for decades now and few players have caught on that this is actually just "some very, very short turns".

 

Through I wonder how much influence Cryptic has on the current development of the (pen and paper) game?

I heard a lot of rumors flying around.

Just have a look at their Menton or what they did to Juryrig.....

Worst design so far for me is Cryptics Gravitar.

Please do not use that design for her, Hero Games.

 

If they added a Foundry and a few zones that were built from the ground up to be Champions zones (rather than retreads of zones they designed for the Marvel setting), I think they'd be in really decent shape.

One thing Cryptic does right is the implementation of Web 2.0 aspects (user generated Content) into the MMO world.

Not sure if City of Heroes/Villains beat it to be the first, but Cryptic seems to make it better.

 

Err...why stop there?  It has nothing to do with HG's financial state (past or present). 

 

How many companies do you see releasing MMOs?  Distinct companies, mind you.   Answer:  very few.  There is a HUGE amount of work involved in the underlying  engine, which is why games like Doom, Halflife, etc. were all considered revolutionary -- they introduced new engines to the mix.

 

Once you've developed the underlying engine, you still need to invest in the development and implementation of graphics, layering onto the engine and building your game.  This is another massive investment.  

 

You'll need to be able to develop your engine and release the game within a short timeframe (so you don't fall into the Duke Nukem Forever trap).  This will require an entire team of developers working on it, with strong project management and a decided vision from management driving everything.  i.e. a not-insignificant business setup.  Look at the size and structure of the big players in the market and you get an idea of the resources needed.

All the successfull computergame Kickstarters lately are made by people from the Industry:

Planetary Annihilation is made by the people who made Suprememe Commander, who are also the people that made Total Annihilation.

Star Citizen is made by Chriss Roberts, the guy who made Wing Commander. And it's still not sure if it will be more of an Multiplayer or MMO game.

 

Why not, rather than an MMO, it be a "toolkit" for other MMO / RPG creators?

 

In other words, you build the engine, then some sample campaigns with multiplayer support, and let someone else "turn it into an MMO" should they desire.

 

Again, HERO System as a toolkit to create games; rather than a game in and of itself.  Which is exactly what HERO system is for pen and paper

There is a big difference between Single Player games and Multiplayer games, just from the programming point of view. I made a simple Battleship clone with hot-seat multiplayer in a few hours. I know enough about networking to propably make it worth via Network in a few more hours. Give me a server in the internet to host it (or at least coordiante the connection between player behind different routers), it would be online Multipalyer within a nother few hours.

It would not be as good as if I designed it for Multiplayer, but it would be doable.

 

Now the difference between Multiplayer and Massively Multiplayer is a whole nother scale. We talk about a level of compelxity that can only be compared to building a Operating System from scratch. It's game devlopment with Megascale on top of it.*

Multiplayer might be 16, 32 or maybe 64 players on one Server. MM means hundreds of players per instance.

The Database and Server must work on optimal efficiency. Milliseconds of delay due to inproper code means hours of extra Server load per week (so eitherserver lag or less players/server). Any minor mistake and Code flaw is magnified as if you look at with x1024 Telescopic.

 

 

*Some people use the example "building a MMO is like building a house". That is wrong. It's like building a whole city - from scratch - while also having to minimise building time, building costs and especially maintenance costs. And it has to look good, too.