International Criminal Organization: Overt or Covert?

[Cassandra]

VIPER is the most powerful criminal organization in the Champions Universe.  It's green clad thugs and super villains are world famous.  Is this the right way to go in taking over the world?

 

RAVEN is far more subtle, dividing itself into a number of criminal enterprises that can't be traced to the main organization.  Each base operating independently on it's own diabolical device that will allow it to take over the world.  When the device is completed, RAVEN makes contact with the World Leaders secretly and makes it's demands known only to them.

 

Which type of organization do you prefer fighting?

[Cassandra]

DEMON has both attributes.  DEMONSPAWN is an overt terrorist group designed to divert attention away from DEMON's real covert efforts to take over the world using evil magic, and corruption.

[TheQuestionMan]

RAVEN is more insidious while VIPER is more recognized. 

 

Difference between the Al-Queda and the IRA. 

 

QM

[Vondy]

Many terror organizations have "plain clothes" operations cells and intelligence groups, political wings with financiers, and armed uniform militia's. Viper could easily be presented as a fanatical snake cult who use terror to advance their obscuritan agenda and crime to pay for it. Most of their organization would be "plain clothes" and the guys in green suits would only be used when they wanted to send a message / cause panic / or make a point. I'm sure, in addition to some very powerful people in the first world on the "council of thirty" they could bully or buy their way into control of some remote third world regions wherein their could safety set up training, stockpiles, research and development, and the like. There may also be some world governments that consider them useful in the game of global strategy and play quid pro quo with Viper. So, my answer is "both." Primarily covert, but understanding that losers in green pajamas are useful for media purposes.

[Old Man]

VIPER.  Give me a stand up fight any day over trying to figure out who to stomp, or whether that guy I stomped was the right one.

[Nothere]

Well I'd have to say overt for the most part. After all I'm running around in way too colorful clothes, have my underwear on the outside, and am shouting things like...

 

"Prepare to taste the fist of justice evildoer."

 

This works a lot better when I'm not facing a guy in a tee shirt going.

 

"What? I don't know what your talking about you oddly dressed loon."

 

Of course it depends on the character. If the team is made up mostly of detective Batman/Daredevil types than covert would be the way to go. When running a game I tend to use both. One to give someone for the players to smash, and the other to make them wonder why someone would steal all the fiberglass, but not touch the money.

[Hermit]

VIPER.  Give me a stand up fight any day over trying to figure out who to stomp, or whether that guy I stomped was the right one.

 

Yeah, I tend to prefer my foes like the Order of the Stick likes its dragons... color coded for convenience!

 

Though I have seen plenty of sneaky moves by guys in bright outfits in the games I've been in.

[kahuna's bro]

i'm with old man and hermit

[drunkonduty]

I like both Overt and Covert bad guys. VIPER can do both. Yes it prefers the overt, but can carry out covert just fine.

IMC I've just had VIPER conduct a series a high-profile raids all across the US. This is just a cover/distraction for their real, covert, operation. I have no idea what that covert operation is, just yet. But I'm hoping inspiration will strike.

 

I guess, as Nothere said, it comes down to the campaign being played. With my current group I don't think the covert op will come to light unitll long after it's successful, it's just not their style.

[Cassandra]

How would your heroes react to coming under attack from "legitimate" forces?  What if there are nothing but bad news reports on the heroes actions?  Suppose villains who your heroes have brought in complain of "excessive force", and they have to face a police investigation.  

 

Then someone tells the heroes to back off certain activities unless they want things to get worse.

 

What would your heroes do?

[Lord Liaden]

The VIPER: Coils Of The Serpent sourcebook describes how much covert influence VIPER actually wields. It's pretty massive. VIPER just wants power, and will pursue any course that promises to yield more power: military, political, financial, social, technological, occult.

 

For an actual game, I generally prefer stand-up foes. One of the great appeals of the superhero genre to me is that, unlike the real world, evil is often clear-cut and obvious, and can be directly opposed. That said, I could find it very satisfying as an occasional change of pace to deal with a more conspiratorial foe using less direct lines of attack, such as financial leverage, media campaigns, lawsuits, and harrassment by bought government officials.

 

In the current Champions Universe, the epitome of this approach is the Circle of the Scarlet Moon. It's a cabal of magic conspirators, but their style of magic is much more subtle and insidious than that of most "super mage" villains or organizations. Whereas a DEMON Morbane might throw a fireball to blow up a warehouse, a Circle member will cast a curse on it so that it burns down the next day, and eventually collect the insurance. There will be no proof of his scheme that will hold up in court... maybe some CCTV footage of a man making odd gestures across the street from the warehouse the day before the fire.

 

Using this approach the Circle has over generations accumulated immense collective wealth and influence around the globe. Yet only a relative handful of people outside the cabal even know it exists.

[Jazzidemus]

I have a quick question in which book was RAVEN updated in I;m pretty sure it was one of the later 4th ed. books but I can't recall which one?

[Lord Liaden]

I have a quick question in which book was RAVEN updated in I;m pretty sure it was one of the later 4th ed. books but I can't recall which one?

 

That would be Justice, Not Law by Steve Long, for the 4E Dark Champions line. RAVEN as presented in this book makes a superb covert global conspiracy "big bad" for modern-day-adventure campaigns.

[Jazzidemus]

Awesome, thank you. Good lookin out.

[drunkonduty]

Cassandra, I never got around to answering your second question re. attacks form legitimate authority.

 

The short answer is: badly. One of my players has... difficulties with "being picked on." He has specifically bought a positive reputation for his character with law enforcement and he wants to improve it/expand it. He wants to play Superman not the X-men.

[bubba smith]

ican see his point

[Christopher]

How would your heroes react to coming under attack from "legitimate" forces?  What if there are nothing but bad news reports on the heroes actions?  Suppose villains who your heroes have brought in complain of "excessive force", and they have to face a police investigation.  

 

Then someone tells the heroes to back off certain activities unless they want things to get worse.

 

What would your heroes do?

As Drunk and bubba said:

This can easily backfire.

 

It falls either into complication territory (Hunted with NCI. Bad Reputation; hunted by Press or government) or a campaing rule (mutant hysteria in a mutant campaign).

In any case you should clear this with the player up front (when creating the campaign). It's a viable tool of Villains, but not every player likes to go through legal hassles or a smear campaign.

[Vondy]

How would your heroes react to coming under attack from "legitimate" forces?  What if there are nothing but bad news reports on the heroes actions?  Suppose villains who your heroes have brought in complain of "excessive force", and they have to face a police investigation.  

 

Then someone tells the heroes to back off certain activities unless they want things to get worse.

 

What would your heroes do?

 

This isn't a heroes question. Its a players question. How would your players react to attacks from "legitimate authority?" The answer: it depends on the players.

 

I have one who loves having angst heaped on and would love to be on the receiving end. Most of my other players wouldn't mind if it happened once or twice, but not as a consistent theme. One would absolutely hate it.

 

Its a question of what the players find fun: which genre? which themes? which tropes? which mood? which style? As for me, I wouldn't mind having an infrequent arc with that theme -- but not as a regular thing.

 

I tend to prefer character-driven games with a heady dose of investigation, espionage, role-play and interaction between big brawls.

 

Even a little romance.

[Haeshka]

In answering your question - it might help to begin with definitions:

This is not a coin, there are three subjects:

Overt: Outright, visible and claimant. - "We take responsibility for the action - and claim we did it."

Clandestine: Sneaky, but still belnging. - "We're not saying we did it, but, yes we're those guys."

Covert: Hidden Hand. - "No, we did not rig that election.  Someone else did." (it was really us.)

[Lucius]

In answering your question - it might help to begin with definitions:

This is not a coin, there are three subjects:

Overt: Outright, visible and claimant. - "We take responsibility for the action - and claim we did it."

Clandestine: Sneaky, but still belnging. - "We're not saying we did it, but, yes we're those guys."

Covert: Hidden Hand. - "No, we did not rig that election.  Someone else did." (it was really us.)

 

Then what do you call

 

"No one rigged that election, it was fair and honest."

 

?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

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