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Why run Hero 6th?


UbiquitousRat

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If you'd add Dave Eddings to that, you'd get my list of "cliché fantasy authors".

 

I'm okay with hidden bosses and "éminence grise" villains. I just don't like to add them all willy-nilly because the party surprisingly managed to kill my main NPC and I'm struggling to end the pre-planned plot at any cost. If the Big Bad didn't follow the requisite items of the Evil Overlord list then good riddance. I have to cope with that. Present entirely new parties, or let the existing, known ones adapt to this power vacuum.

 

If their encounter in the Temple of the Ruby Eyed Idol will result into an encounter with yet another bad guy, no matter what, that's totally disregarding the actions of the players. Which is anathema to me. It's not different from presenting them two corridors to pick, left and right, but no matter what they'll choose, they'll end up in the same area. The narrative doesn't warp the space time continuum in my campaigns.

 

I'm aware that other game masters see this differently. Which is why this is somewhat pertinent to the discussion: Either you have to play it this way some times, or you'll have to be able to fly by the seat of your pants. HERO is a harsh mistress at times.

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One short comment on PaycheckHero's "GM cheating" comment: Even if GM's sometimes are able to save the poor characters lives from unfortunate deaths or other unopportune events, this will happen more often than in some other games. On the outside it might be all superheros, but once you get down to killing damage, well, it's fairly deadly.

 

I don't recall having much trouble with unintentionally killing PCs, but it's been a while since I played in a killing damage game so I don't remember if there was a specific reason beyond, perhaps. the GM occasionally lying (though I recall a near-death from a lucky hit that the GM didn't sugar-coat).  We may have been lenient with the bleeding rules, for example.  We also weren't using the critical hit rules, which when combined with hit locations can really beef up the extreme result tails.  Definitely combining multiple "gritty" options can easily push you over the lethality cliff, and we tended to be moderate in that regard.

 

That said, an interesting fact is that Hero never used to have an official means to resurrect a dead character--I think that first showed up in the official rules in 5e or 5er.  That occasionally dismayed players coming from certain other games....

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As far as play-style goes, I'm an old-timer who has moved away from constructed plots towards an improvisational style. Graham Walmsley's "Play Unsafe" is a very good guide to how I'd like to play. The difficulty is that, as an old-timer, I like a certain tactical crunch to my gaming too. Finally, I like detail in my settings - cool recurring GMCs (formally known as NPCs), cool gear variants, and lots of custom details - like sub-species or cultural differences.

 

What appeals about Hero is the idea of customisation. In theory, I can make things the way I like 'em.

 

What worries me is how to balance Hero with my improvisational style. Starting a new session with just a few words on sticky notes is common for me, and putting aside time to do crunchy stat builds is... well, work. This worry is the last real barrier to me running a trial game. After that, it's going to boil down to, "how the frack do I build this idea?"

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OK - here's the plan:

 

I'm going to construct a demo adventure set in our existing campaign world of Tikhon (currently playing with a house-built rules set), but set in an earlier pre-magickal era of time. Think proto-civilisation, swords about to clash with sorcery. I fancy the adventure being about how the Humans and Dwarfs first received the revelation of Helles, the "Lightbringer" God.

 

I've had a go at creating my first hero and would appreciate some feedback. He's a proto-typical Mountain Dwarf ("Drax") Barbarian type. I still need to add equipment, but I think I've translated the concept across reasonably. 

Aelfrik.pdf

 

What do you think?

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Looks pretty good so far. A couple of minor points:

  • OMCV: Do you plan on having him use mental combat in an offensive way (Psionics or Charm magics for example)? If not, sell that puppy back to 1 and get yourself some points to spend elsewhere. That's actually the only accounting thing that I see a "problem" (and it really isn't a problem) with.
  • Looks like you used Hero Designer to make the character. Good for you. As a suggestion, you can replace the text for things with your own. For example: +3 OCV "with any single attack" can be replaced with +3 OCV "with Axes".  It isn't immediately obvious, but just backspace over the generic entry text and add your own. Maybe for the time being, you may want to keep the notes. Again, this is not "wrong" but it is a way to clean up the output a little.

The character himself works well and I would accept him in any campaign I decided to run. You got Everyman skills setup. That's good.  You had the character buy a "common tongue" language (or I'm guessing that's what Vulgate is). Excellent. Combat stats are perfect for a warrior type. There are no Martial Maneuvers to skew OCV/DCV values so at most you will have an 11 OCV with the character. That fits right in with what I would consider the high end of normal. Very nicely done overall.

 

I would define what the Very Limited Circumstances on the Urukslayer (orcslayer kind of thing?) Talent are and that's about it. I'm guessing the Very Limited Circumstances are "Only vs. Uruks" but clarity is better.

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I don't recall having much trouble with unintentionally killing PCs, but it's been a while since I played in a killing damage game so I don't remember if there was a specific reason beyond, perhaps. the GM occasionally lying (though I recall a near-death from a lucky hit that the GM didn't sugar-coat).  We may have been lenient with the bleeding rules, for example.  We also weren't using the critical hit rules, which when combined with hit locations can really beef up the extreme result tails.  Definitely combining multiple "gritty" options can easily push you over the lethality cliff, and we tended to be moderate in that regard.

 

That said, an interesting fact is that Hero never used to have an official means to resurrect a dead character--I think that first showed up in the official rules in 5e or 5er.  That occasionally dismayed players coming from certain other games....

 

Hit locations can make for deadly combats esp if critical hits are in play. We had one combat (which was a first game for a lot of D&Ders) way back in FH 1.0 days. The spear using priest was critially hit with a large attack in the Vitals. The character died instantly. We were young and foolish back then. I probably would have just said it hit and let the damage dice roll (we did crits back then with max damage). It's never really happened since then and it taught us a bunch about character gen. (ie make sure that everyone has at least chest armor and a bowl on their head to prevent this from one shotting PCs). Heroic level play CAN be deadly. That's what can make it really fun.

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OK - here's the plan:

 

I'm going to construct a demo adventure set in our existing campaign world of Tikhon (currently playing with a house-built rules set), but set in an earlier pre-magickal era of time. Think proto-civilisation, swords about to clash with sorcery. I fancy the adventure being about how the Humans and Dwarfs first received the revelation of Helles, the "Lightbringer" God.

 

I've had a go at creating my first hero and would appreciate some feedback. He's a proto-typical Mountain Dwarf ("Drax") Barbarian type. I still need to add equipment, but I think I've translated the concept across reasonably. 

attachicon.gifAelfrik.pdf

 

What do you think?

I think you will find that avoidance isn't the best strategy overall to mitigate damage on a character. Perhaps trade some OCV for some Combat Luck(see Talents) or buy him some Studded Leather Armor (rPD/rED 3 Resistant Def, OIF Armor, Real Armor) Just a little armor will go a long way toward keeping a character alive.

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Now we're obviously getting into matters of taste, but I would prefer seeing players with more situation-dependent combat skills and abilities instead of just sticking everything into OCV/DCV. Especially for a berserker.

 

Also, soaking more damage instead of just being incredibly hard to hit would be more suitable (honestly, 9 effective DCV?). Never mind that I don't think being slightly below 5 foot should cound as Small, and give you any stealth or defense bonuses.

 

Speaking of damage, he's got no way to increase it. Even with STR 18 and a huge weapon, that's easily beaten. In-rage HTH bonuses or full-fledged CSLs might be a good idea, if you're not going for some kind of "berserker martial art".

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Hit locations can make for deadly combats esp if critical hits are in play.

Absolutely. I think that is why that GM didn't use crits.

 

There are supposedly heroic genres where I think it's a mistake to use killing damage at all. Turning all weapons into their equivalent DCs of normal damage is particularly likely to be appropriate for adapting anything from a Saturday morning cartoon. You don't have to do that, but I think in many instances it is more faithful to the source.

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I think you will find that avoidance isn't the best strategy overall to mitigate damage on a character.

 

...

 

Just a little armor will go a long way toward keeping a character alive.

To elaborate on what Tasha said for purposes of illustrating the system, the reason this is true is that DCV reduces the probability of hits, but not the damage if they do hit. It gets less likely to take, say, 24 body to the head (max on 2d6, doubled for an unprotected head hit), but it's still possible. Play long enough, and it will happen.

 

On the other hand, armor reduces the damage when there is a hit, so the maximum possible result is less than it was without armor. This is particularly important since armor applies before doubling body, so that a 6 DEF helmet reduces the max hit to 12 body, not 18. Your buddies might manage to save you if you take 12. 18, not so much.

 

The point is that damage application is non-linear, in that six hits that do 24 body total are in no wise similar to one that does 24. The longer you play, the more likely it is that you'll take that lucky shot and the more likely it is that armor will keep you alive when DCV won't.

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Woah - ok. I think I understood SOME of that feedback. Remember: Hero neophyte here.

 

So... yes, he gets armour. I just hadn't worked out HOW at the point I posted the sheet (that, "how do I build it" thing proving some of fears about, "it'll be a pain to have to build everything").

 

Thanks for the explain on the value of armour, Paycheck, and the advice on buying some, Tasha - I'd not noticed how armour affects BODY damage.

 

As for the comments from mhd, I'm a little bit thrown. Let me try to explain where I am coming from: the character is a Dwarf, emulating the feel of things in our fantasy world that (in the current system). I just used the advice in Hero Basic to try and build something that might help me get my head around Hero. To be honest, I don't really understand your comments so clearly.

 

"...I would prefer seeing players with more situation-dependent combat skills and abilities instead of just sticking everything into OCV/DCV. Especially for a berserker.

 

Also, soaking more damage instead of just being incredibly hard to hit would be more suitable (honestly, 9 effective DCV?). Never mind that I don't think being slightly below 5 foot should cound as Small, and give you any stealth or defense bonuses.

 

Speaking of damage, he's got no way to increase it. Even with STR 18 and a huge weapon, that's easily beaten. In-rage HTH bonuses or full-fledged CSLs might be a good idea, if you're not going for some kind of "berserker martial art".

I can understand the desire to remove the Small bonuses, perhaps saving those for Halflings and Goblins. Other than that, I am lost to know what to do to improve him and, more importantly, why. Can you elaborate?

 

I want to put this together and learn... but I don't want to feel like I'm totally out of my depth. Please bear with me.

 

And again - thanks for the advice and support!

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Also, soaking more damage instead of just being incredibly hard to hit would be more suitable (honestly, 9 effective DCV?). Never mind that I don't think being slightly below 5 foot should cound as Small, and give you any stealth or defense bonuses.

I agree, but I don't yet know if the design is because His Dwarves Are Different <grin> or because he didn't quite get the system to do what he wanted. The comments below assume mostly the latter, as there isn't much to say if he got the result he wanted and it's just different from what I expect.

 

That dwarf has the CV of a Mad Whack Voodoo Ninja (inside joke). I suppose one could build a world with dwarves that move like Bruce Lee, but that would be...odd. We never built dwarves as CV monsters, we gave them excellent dwarven armor. Also good damage--high OCV plus high damage is itself a defense, as the opponent gets fewer chances to strike at you. I'd let, say, a dwarven champion go up to a high OCV, but not high DCV.

 

I also agree about 'small'. Having dwarves take increased knockback (admittedly, it's not at all by the book to use KB in a fantasy game, though we often did it) is pretty odd, and anything that shouldn't take increased KB also shouldn't get DCV bonuses IMO. My reading of Tolkien (the source of most fantasy dwarves) is that dwarves have no issues meleeing with human-sized opponents.

 

All in all, except for the strength that writeup is almost closer to a hobbit than a dwarf. If that's not the intent, tweaking is in order.

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Thanks, PaycheckHero - that helps me understand where I am going wrong.

 

My Mountain Dwarfs (Drax) are very Tolkien-like but less "civilised". Also, given the earlier period, I want you to envision early Bronze Age tech as standard, not Iron Age. That said, he should be slow yet dogged, angry and able to dish out hurt.

 

What tweaks do you advise... and, most importantly, can you say WHY (so I can learn from your experience)?

 

My big problem is I have little frame of reference for what the numbers mean. Tomorrow, I plan to tweak the Dwarf + knock up an Uruk (Big Orc) and then run a fight. I need to understand how it plays.

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So... yes, he gets armour. I just hadn't worked out HOW at the point I posted the sheet (that, "how do I build it" thing proving some of fears about, "it'll be a pain to have to build everything").

You can use prebuilt armor from Fantasy Hero or from the equipment guide if it isn't in your rulebook--I think the "Two Ginormous Phonebooks" have a table of basic armor but I bet it got left out of CC in the interests of brevity and the fact that it is focused on superheroes. If you don't have those, we'll have to get you some stats or something.

 

Thanks for the explain on the value of armour, Paycheck, and the advice on buying some, Tasha - I'd not noticed how armour affects BODY damage.

Make sure you pay attention to when the multipliers get applied, because that's critical. Stun comes before armor, body after.

 

As for the comments from mhd, I'm a little bit thrown. Let me try to explain where I am coming from: the character is a Dwarf, emulating the feel of things in our fantasy world that (in the current system).

That's OK, if we sounded critical I don't think anyone meant to. We'll explain whatever isn't clear. We don't know the feel in your world, so our comments are really about generic fantasy dwarves. If Your Dwarves Are Different, you'll have to interpret what we say or explain how they differ.

 

I can understand the desire to remove the Small bonuses, perhaps saving those for Halflings and Goblins. Other than that, I am lost to know what to do to improve him and, more importantly, why. Can you elaborate?

Exactly how to fix it depends on what dwarves are like in your world. For my concept, I might well drop the DCV down to four or five and give him something like DEF 8 armor or better, but that depends on whether dwarves make awesome armor in your world or not. That models a dwarf who isn't terribly hard to hit, but he's hard to *hurt*. Combat Luck is probably a good idea in any event for a fighting character; it uses the armor rules but the special effect is, well, combat luck (or skill, you can adjust the special effect no matter what the name).

 

A basic rule for my games is you can't max out all categories (otherwise, logically everyone would have the same defenses. If you want campaign limit armor, you shouldn't have a great DCV. For a dwarf, I'd emphasize armor, whereas for a elf or a hobbit I'd have less armor and more DCV. DCV limits for a heroic fantasy game would probably be in the neighborhood of 7-8 DCV (perhaps more for a unusually fragile character), so that dwarf would be a DCV monster in my games. I tend to think of dwarves as bruisers and elves as dancers, so to speak, so I'd give that DCV to elves and give the dwarves armor.

 

If you're used to D&D, or older versions of D&D anyway (I don't know anything about recent ones), it might be confusing because classic D&D implements armor by making you harder to hit, what hero calls DCV. Hero, and for that matter most games that aren't D&D, implement armor by soaking up damage. So if you're thinking in D&D terms DCV probably seems like armor, but in Hero it isn't.

 

One consequence of that interpretation is that dwarves reeeally want to fight in their armor, so it won't work that well in a game where your adventurers don't normally walk around in heavy armor (realistic, but contrary to most people's ideas of fantasy thanks to D&D). If that is your game, we'll have to re-adjust *our* expectations, and also think about how you're going to differentiate the fighting styles of dwarves, elves, and hobbits. In that situation I'd probably emphasize OCV and damage for dwarves. In fact, in that kind of a game you might end up having most characters use martial arts and design a different art for each race, but that's a bit complex when you're getting started.

 

And the less armor there is in the game, the more the PCs are absolutely going to want combat luck, and probably try to talk you into allowing more than one level of it. You have to decide if that fits your concept. In a low armor game you could certainly allow it instead of martial maneuvers to distinguish bruisers from dancers.

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What's the current default Setup for "Berserk Powers"? Probably Trigger/No Conscious Control, but at what costs? (+0/-2?)

 

Aid STR would be great, and if you're really going for the "naked dwarf" archetype, possibly even a 50% Damage Reduction. Otherwise, Aid BODY.

 

I'd build racial fighting bonuses (as per D&D) as CSLs. After all, most of the time you don't just learn how to hurt them, but also how to attack and evade them, i.e. how they fight. HTH CSL with a -1 limitation.

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First of all, don't miss this:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/88176-short-adventures/

 

Someone wrote up a couple of adventures specifically for new people; I am sure he'd like feedback on how well it worked for you, or even how well you understood it if you don't actually run it. I know I would.

 

My big problem is I have little frame of reference for what the numbers mean

 

And to some extent that frame of reference is context-dependent. Even among long time Hero players, we have all been in different games.

 

But we all seem to agree that this Dwarf has very high OCV and DCV for a heroic character. I've played superheroes with lower values than that.

 

Any combat capable character needs Resistant Defenses, in my opinon and I suspect a lot of people will agree. In the Hero games I run, Combat Luck is mandatory for player characters who do not already have some other form of natural armor.

 

It's also easy to get carried away with defenses, too. I also limit Combat Luck to 1 level, unless the character is NOT going to wear heavy armor. You don't want invulnerable chracters either!

 

Remenmber, DCV doesn't help when someone rolls a 3 or when a fireball or other Area Effect attack goes off.

 

 

You also bought up OMCV, or Offensive Mental Combat Value. That's probably not necessary.  It will only help if the character makes mental attacks.

 

 

The trigger for the Enraged should be specific. I'm assuming your intention is "in combat" but it's not spelled out.

 

 

The 20 BOD is a lot - maybe more than you need, even for a "damage sponge." It might depend partly on how you want to do healing. I tend to, for example, let a First Aid roll automatically heal back 1 pt of BOD, and there's healing magic available. If you want to have injuries be a lingering problem and healing takes a long time, having a high BOD might be necessary. Even so, may people would say 20 BOD is right at what should be the upper limit for even very experienced and tough heroic characters.

 

 

As for the setting, I've sometimes thought a stone age setting would be interesting - and if you do that, there is that much less "stuff" you have to build. Many kinds of weapons and armor don't even exist. The Uruks can use clubs, the Humans have flint knives and spears, and the Dwarves have flint axes. Or you can give the Dwarves the secret of working obsidian, which can be sharper even than flint. 

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Did the palindromedary eat my tagline?

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What's the current default Setup for "Berserk Powers"? Probably Trigger/No Conscious Control, but at what costs? (+0/-2?)

If you just buy extra stats "only when berserk" you don't need either of those. I might set the value of the limitation by comparing the berserk roll to an activation roll, though they're not the same (but I think newer editions have funky options on Requires A Roll so it might be a better fit than it used to be.

 

Aid STR would be great, and if you're really going for the "naked dwarf" archetype, possibly even a 50% Damage Reduction. Otherwise, Aid BODY.

Aid is another good way--it makes the boost less predictable, which could fit the berserker idea better. More bookkeeping though, since you can't just have your boosted stats on the character sheet and they fade every turn. "Only when berserk" is the easiest way during play, if less colorful and too predictable. For someone learning the system, it might be better than having to adjust characteristics every turn.

 

Really wild would be to make which stats get the aid vary randomly. Maybe too wild. :-)

 

In 6e, damage negation might be better than DR to simulate tough guys. In fact, it might be a reasonable alternative to PD-based combat luck. It kind of depends on the effect you want, but DR means that you're stronger against powerful opponents but are easier to nickel-and-dime to death than if you'd bought PD. I'm not sure that's the effect most people would want, since they might prefer to be able to wade through a sea of mooks. But either is certainly valid. DR is also kinda pricey for what you get in most fights (intentionally so, to discourage PCs from taking it--I believe it's primarily meant to allow the PCs to nickel-and-dime a master villain in a big, long fight without being able to one-shot him). It always seemed like the damage level where it really starts kicking in is about where you're in reaaaally big trouble even with the DR.

 

I'd build racial fighting bonuses (as per D&D) as CSLs. After all, most of the time you don't just learn how to hurt them, but also how to attack and evade them, i.e. how they fight. HTH CSL with a -1 limitation.

That's a decent way to do it. I have a grudge about the CSL cost structure in 6e, though.

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My Mountain Dwarfs (Drax) are very Tolkien-like but less "civilised". Also, given the earlier period, I want you to envision early Bronze Age tech as standard, not Iron Age. That said, he should be slow yet dogged, angry and able to dish out hurt.

Slow implies low DCV to me. 6e actually makes this harder to get from reading the rules, because it offers no clues as to what CV means (I have said this before, but the 6e fanboys didn't or wouldn't understand the point). In <6e to get high DCV you bought DEX (in fact, that was the main reason people bought dex and the reason DEX was kind of a God stat), which gave you a clue as to what kind of character should have it. Now it's less obvious that DCV is probably closer to what you think of as dex than dex is.

 

Now, combat levels are different--just about any character can certainly justify having those, which can be used on DCV (depending on how you buy them), but they're more flexible (though I'm not at all sure 6e didn't overprice them).

 

What tweaks do you advise... and, most importantly, can you say WHY (so I can learn from your experience)?

So here is the strength, or weakness if you prefer, of Hero. The system doesn't force you into a particular vision for how you implement your concepts. You can build dwarves as high-damage characters who depend on wearing armor for defense, and that's how I tend to think of them mainly because that's how the GM ran it when I learned Hero--but you *don't have to*. So maybe we should really ask how dwarves fight in your world and whether you expect the party to normally wear armor as in D&D (which puts armor-dependent characters at a disadvantage if circumstances don't allow it to be worn) or normally don't (as in real life, essentially, though people expecting trouble have worn some torso armor under clothes since long before bulletproof vests). The answer to that will tell us a lot about what you *really* want, and then we can suggest ways of getting it exactly. Or, if that's too much to think about, just buy the dwarf some plate armor and be happy for now. :-)

 

In reference to the thread subject, that's really why you play hero--so the system doesn't force a particular concept on you. If you want armor to be rare outside of battle, you can do it just as well as the customary way. It's probably also why some people *don't* play hero--so very, very many choices if you start thinking about it. In fact, it's probably too much to bother you with now, except it kind of gives the real answer to your initial question. You use hero because you can make ninja dwarves, make viable characters without wearing armor all the time like they're on the battlefield, or whatever fits your world.

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Hi!

 

First of all, thanks again for the advice and comments - really appreciate it all!

 

I've set up a separate thread to continue the game design discussion, because it seems inappropriate to do so here:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/88195-helping-build-tikhon/

 

But... well... I'm persuaded to at least TRY to run a Hero 6e game in our existing fantasy setting of Tikhon. I've even got the guys open to the idea of playing "background building" one-shot adventures set in the past of the setting... although they don't know I'll run it with Hero yet.

 

Massive thanks once again! Hopefully you'll be willing to come and help me build this thing too.

 

Game on!

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If you dont want the characters STR to climb to high via AID, but you want him to do more damage while berserk, consider adding a Deadly Blow (+1d6k) only while berserk (limitation based on the chance to go berserk as if it was an activation roll with a possible adjustment depending on how rare the triggering mechanism is).

 

I would also add damage resisting capability to the berserk. i myself prefer damage reduction-stun only so it is much harder to stun a berserk warrior, but they can still be killed with a solid blow to a vital area of the body.

 

Don't underestimate the usefulness of martial arts in hero. They can turn a warrior from average to uber without too much effort (or experience) expended.

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Having run a small combat, featuring Aelfrik fighting a Cave Bear (from the Bestiary), I think I have gained a somewhat better appreciation for the comments made earlier.

 

The main thing, however, is to report that although it was a very slow and faltering solo-play situation, I did manage to run a fight between the two characters. In the end, although he did receive a mortal wound (reduced to 0 BODY), Aelfrik killed the Cave Bear. It was interesting that neither character particularly suffered STUN to worry about them falling unconscious, however.

 

Anyhow... armed with new knowledge and some tips on the other thread, I'm going to look again at the Dwarf later this afternoon. It was a lot of fun (once I got going) to play... and encouraging to start imagining this with the other guys.

 

Game on!

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A note on the DCV conversation:

While we typically think of DCV as being wholly dex-based, keep in mind HERO is "reason from effect."  A high DCV could be due to exceptional skill at blocking or rolling with a hit, it could be dodging, it could be partial desolidification if you wanted it to be.  DCV can be granted by a shield.  

 

A high-DCV character is not *automatically* an agile character dodging everything.  It could even just be sheer, dumb luck.  

 

Just a nit-pick on an earlier comment; sorry.

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