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UbiquitousRat

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...I need help with converting two of his weapons into D&D style "+1 magickal weapons". Any ideas?

 

Feedback welcome.

 

Making a +1 weapon is actually very easy in HERO and I tend to be lazy if at all possible so my example is built using the prefabs from Hero Designer. 

 

First question is what kind of weapon.

 

Example, a Broadsword is defined in HERO as this.   

 

Sword, Broad/Long:  (Total: 31 Active Cost, 12 Real Cost)

Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1d6+1, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (30 Active Points);

OAF (-1), STR Minimum 12 (-1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 11)

PLUS

Medium (1m) Reach  (1 Active Points) (Real Cost: 1)

 

Now we ask the question of what is +1? 

Is it +1 to hit?

Is it +1 to damage?

Or is it both?

 

Let’s assume it is both.

+1 to hit is simply +1 OCV which costs 2 points (6E1 pg70)

The +1 Damage is a bit more subjective.  1 point of damage in D&D can be significant in the lower levels.  Hand to hand killing costs: 5pts for 1 pip, 10pts for 1/2d6 and 15pts for 1d6 (6E1 241).  Personally I like magic to be something mean with an impact so I am going to go for the whole enchilada and add 1d6 for 15 pts. 

 

So:

Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1d6+1, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (30 Active Points);

Becomes:

Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 2d6+1, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (45 Active Points);

 

The limitations remain the same:

OAF (-1), STR Minimum 12 (-1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4) making the (Real Cost: 16)

 

In addition to the reach I add:

+1 OCV (2 Active Points) (Real Cost: 2)

 

And my magic sword reads:

 

Magic Broadsword:  (Total: 48 Active Cost, 19 Real Cost)

Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 2d6+1, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (45 Active Points);

OAF (-1), STR Minimum 12 (-1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 16)

PLUS

Medium (1m) Reach  (1 Active Points) (Real Cost: 1)

PLUS

+1 OCV (2 Active Points) (Real Cost: 2)

 

 

Don’t forget, you don’t have to stick with OCV.  You could buy DCV levels for a Magic Rapier that imbues the wielder with supernatural defense.

 

A bow, javelin or missile weapon could have Penalty Skill Levels (PSL) that offset range penalties.

 

But overall I just take an existing weapons build and tack on what I need. 

 

I would HIGHLY suggest a copy of Hero Designer and the HD packs for the Equipment Guide or Fantasy Hero and the Bestiary.  The HD packs have all the contents of the various products converted into HD format that you can just add to a PC/NPC/thing and/or modify as needed.    HD is not required, but it is phenomenal for streamlining builds. 

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I'm with Spence on the magic weapon front.

 

I'm sure lots of other will have suggestions for the builds, more relevant to Fantasy games.  It's more important how they compare to other characters in the campaign, and the benchmarks provided in the Character Creation section are pretty useful in this regard, especially if you'll be using published write-ups for adversaries. 

 

Some comments:

 

 - base OCV and DCV seem relatively low, and skill levels high.  The Ranger could save points with a 5 OCV and one level with his Bow, and have the same OCV. 

 - An OCV of 8 will almost always hit a DCV of 5 (14- is about 90% likely), so the spread between OCV and DCB is pretty significant in your write-ups.  This is a tough thing for d20 players to get used to - +1 means a LOT more in Hero.

 - 3 point levels on a group of skills in natural surroundings would be more cost-effective for Karl (he could have +2 to any one skill at a time for 6 points).  I n general, 2 points for +1 to a given skill is rarely cost-effective. 

 - They're spending a LOT on that Danger Sense.

 - I can't think of any character with NO complications - just having a personality normally opens up a lot.

 - Gerhad has reduced  movement, but I don't see where he sold that back.

 - Karl could spend 4 points on INT, buy +1 with PER rolls and +1 with Tracking, and have better rolls on everything else INT impacts.  Similarly, Gerhad could bump his DEX to 13 for the same price he pays for +1 to Climbing and Fast Draw.

 

A typical 2d6 KA attack will average 7 BOD and 21 STUN.  That will STUN Karl, and almost STUN Gerhad.  That's quite a bit lower than their own melee damage, and their DCV's mean they won't avoid many attacks. 

 

Typically, a starting Heroic (Fantasy) character has 175 character points (and 50 points in complications), so their total points of 135 and 145 falls considerably lower than a typical starting Fantasy Hero character.  225 (with 50 complications) might be a better benchmark if the goal is Epic characters; this is the mark for "powerful" Heroic characters.

 

Which books are you using/accessing?  A better approach may be to compare these two against a 'standard' (say, a goblin, an orc and a tougher opponent) to assess how their CV, attacks, defenses, etc. compare and ensure this is consistent with your vision of their power level.

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First, write up all the player characters without worrying about point totals – yet.

 

Focus on making sure each one has the minimum abilities the players will expect. In that regard, take this advice:

 

Which books are you using/accessing? A better approach may be to compare these two against a 'standard' (say, a goblin, an orc and a tougher opponent) to assess how their CV, attacks, defenses, etc. compare and ensure this is consistent with your vision of their power level.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't be trying to save points; do try for efficiency. But mostly, make sure each character will have what it needs. THEN look at whichever one cost the most, and set THAT as your benchmark. Then look over the others and see where you can spend a few points fleshing out the concepts – or even give them a small “bonus” of points to spend as the players choose.

 

I agree with those who say the OCV and DCV have been a bit low. Especially for the ranger – he has all kinds of weapons. That said, numbers are always relative: if you're going to be giving Goblins an OCV and DCV of 1, warriors with OCV and DCV of 3 are going to come off looking good. Of course, Goblins like that will only hit the broad side of a barn on a roll of 12 or less. Less if they're at range. But seriously, I have a hard time seeing OCV 3 as right for an “epic warrior.”

 

On magic weapons: Spence is definitely right in principle, but without quoting him at length I have to take issue with a couple of points.

 

Now, I could be mistaken on this (if so, I'm sure to be corrected) but I think a 2 pt Combat Skill Level gives a +1 OCV to only ONE specific attack. So this will help with a straightforward sword strike, but not for example with a block or disarm using the same sword. I tend to give a magic weapon a broader Skill Level or even just a +1 OCV as a Characteristic. Yeah, I guess that's a nitpick.

 

I think he is overdoing it on the added damage. In my experience, damage output can get really out of hand really fast, especially if you're using hit locations. I've seen too many giants one-shotted. If translating a “+1 sword” I'd probably increase the Damage Class by only one.

 

I would also say that an enchanted weapon is almost by definition not a “Real Weapon” in the sense of needing that Limitation. I'd also specify that it's an Unbreakable Focus.

 

To make explaining the character sheet easier to the player you might want to set all the Characteristic bonuses from being "Drax" as secondary stats. That way, the points spent in the actual Characteristic Block will make more sense.

Depends on how much he wants to actually explain at first. That first time, what counts is that the players know how to play the character. They'll want to know “How strong am I?” not “just how much of my strength is due to being a Drax?” The intricacies of what cost how many points come in when actually desigining a character.

 

One last point: I really like the name “Nimble Fighter” for Combat Luck.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary Package Deal

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On magic weapons: Spence is definitely right in principle, but without quoting him at length I have to take issue with a couple of points.

 

Now, I could be mistaken on this (if so, I'm sure to be corrected) but I think a 2 pt Combat Skill Level gives a +1 OCV to only ONE specific attack. So this will help with a straightforward sword strike, but not for example with a block or disarm using the same sword. I tend to give a magic weapon a broader Skill Level or even just a +1 OCV as a Characteristic. Yeah, I guess that's a nitpick.

 

 

Actually not true.  Here is the relevant quote:

 

6E1 Page 70 "For 2 Character Points, a character can buy a CSL that provides +1 OCV only with a single weapon or attack. A character could buy this to help him with, for example, his broadsword, his Blast, or the Move Through Combat Maneuver.  The weapon or attack is defined generically. For example, a 2-point CSL with “Broadswords” applies to all broadswords, not just one broadsword the character owns, and it applies to any form of attack made with that weapon or ability (such as a Strike, Haymaker, or Multiple Attack with the sword’s blade, an attempt to Disarm or Move By a foe, and so forth)."

 

This comes up pretty often.  People usually remember the single attack but not the single weapon and any form of attack with the weapon part.  

 

 

I think he is overdoing it on the added damage. In my experience, damage output can get really out of hand really fast, especially if you're using hit locations. I've seen too many giants one-shotted. If translating a “+1 sword” I'd probably increase the Damage Class by only one.

 

 

 

Yes and no.  While I have seen things get ridicules, I don't see doubling base damage of a hand weapon at that point. 

 

Though I do understand where you are coming from.  But I also believe that a magic sword (or item) is SPECIAL.  Another reason I stopped playing games that use the bic lighter effect like D&D and Pathfinder.  Magic isn't special or magical anymore.  Everyone in the entire population has a magical weapon by the time they are out of diapers :shock: .   OK OK I jest.  But not by much.

 

Another point to bring up is that D&D (as I remember it) has a lot less damage sink than FH.  A 1st or 2nd level PC could have a little as 5-8 HP and Armor does not reduce damage taken.  A Broadsword (1D6?) hit by a strong warrior type with a +1 damage from stats can do 2-6 in one hit.   Just a +1 magic makes that 3-7.   I've seen that one shot kill many times and we always accepted it as a low level issue.

 

In HERO even if you hit, the damage taken is reduced by defenses such as armor and a adventuring PC will generally have more than 10 BDY.  2d6+1 gives you 3-13.    If a PC has just a couple points of extra body, say a total of 13, and is wearing leather for 3 Def. a one shot is very unlikely.  If I rolled 13 damage, after armor the PC would still have 3 BDY.

 

In both examples a low level or beginning FH PC would be severely hurt if the hit max'd.  The D&D style PC would have 1-2 pts left, the FH PC would have 3 BDY.    But the FH PC's 3 BDY is effectively 6 due to armor. 

 

My view is colored by making magical items of any sort rare so I don't see any issue with doubling the mundane damage.  I wouldn't want to go beyond that unless the magic weapon was truly special though.  

 

But if you will be handing out magic weapons at the frequency common to most D&D or Pathfinder games, then I would follow Lucius advice and limit it to one damage class.

 

 

I would also say that an enchanted weapon is almost by definition not a “Real Weapon” in the sense of needing that Limitation. I'd also specify that it's an Unbreakable Focus.

 

 

 

I let the real weapon part slip past me. 

 

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...I need help with converting two of his weapons into D&D style "+1 magickal weapons". Any ideas?

 

Feedback welcome.

 

My recommendation would be to get a copy of the Enchanted Items book.

 

Here are three examples that I would use for a 'common' magic sword from the Enchanted Items book:

 

  • Enchanted Short Sword Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1 ½d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +½) (37 APs); Independent (-2), OAF (-1), STR Minimum 4-8 (-½) plus +2 OCV (16 APs); Independent (-2), OAF (-1)

 

  • Enchanted Long sword Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 2d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +½) (45 APs); Independent (-2), OAF (-1), STR Minimum 4-8 (-½) plus +2 OCV (16 APs); Independent (-2), OAF (-1)

 

  • Enchanted Bastard Sword Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 2 ½d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +½) (60 APs); Independent (-2), OAF (-1), STR Minimum 4-8 (-½), One-And-A-Half-Handed (-¼) plus +2 OCV (16 APs);  Independent (-2), OAF (-1)

 

  • Enchanted Great sword Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 3d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +½) (67 APs); Independent (-2), OAF (-1), STR Minimum 4-8 (-¾), Two-Handed (-½) plus +2 OCV (16 APs); Independent (-2), OAF (-1)

Each of them does more damage than their regular counterpart, they don't have the real weapon limitation (won't rust, unlikely to break), STR Min has been significantly lowered (4 - 8 STR for a Great Sword?), and they all are easier to wield (+2 OCV).

 

If I were to modify these I would put the STR minimum back to their normal weapon counterpart and only give +1 OCV (in addition to any pluses a normal weapon of this type has).

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Actually not true.  Here is the relevant quote:

 

6E1 Page 70 "For 2 Character Points, a character can buy a CSL that provides +1 OCV only with a single weapon or attack. A character could buy this to help him with, for example, his broadsword, his Blast, or the Move Through Combat Maneuver.  The weapon or attack is defined generically. For example, a 2-point CSL with “Broadswords” applies to all broadswords, not just one broadsword the character owns, and it applies to any form of attack made with that weapon or ability (such as a Strike, Haymaker, or Multiple Attack with the sword’s blade, an attempt to Disarm or Move By a foe, and so forth)."

 

This comes up pretty often.  People usually remember the single attack but not the single weapon and any form of attack with the weapon part.

 

Thanks. I should have just looked it up.

 

On the damage thing, my views are colored by the fact that I use the hit location and the impairing and disabling rules.

 

In this specific instance, also, we're talking about a weapon the character has from inception so to speak, and that will probably be a more or less permanent feature of the character. Unless the weapon IS going to cost points, I'm not sure I think it's a good idea to hand the character a massively more powerful weapon and say "Happy birthday, here's a license to decapitate ogres on a regular basis."

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Some enchanted palindromedary

 

Lucius Alexander

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I would like to suggest that you take a hard look at the example character in the back of the Fantasy Hero book.  If you go with the standard 175 + 50 in disadvantages then building everything else will be easier.  There is an example of a wizard, paladin, dwarf (fighter), elf (ranger), and thief. 

 

If you do use the standard 175 + 50, you can use the spells found in the Grimoire books (and HD packs) and the Bestiary and HD packs pretty much as is.

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I would like to suggest that you take a hard look at the example character in the back of the Fantasy Hero book.

Are you suggesting I actually spend some time reading? :-p

 

Actually, the 175+50 thing was what I was aiming to do. My problem has been that, thus far, I realise just how low-powered our existing game is, really. I'll be seriously pumping up those characters in this port-over process. But thanks, I'll take another look later is evening.

 

Ubiquitous Rat: how does the clerical miracle system work, in the rules set you're currently using?Lucius Alexanderubiquitous palindromedary tagline

The Priest of the Lightbringer (the one I need to port) is a follower of one of a pantheon of deities, the Sun God. He has access to Miracles, which are distinct from "Magick" because the branch of the Church of The Lightbringer that this character comes from is anti-Magick. (Another member of the party is a Witch-Hunter, a kind of Holy Assassin mixed with Inquisitor.)

 

Miracles are divided into Paths. Umbar, the character in question, follows the "Path of Helles Illuminated". Each Path is divided into Ranks (Rank 1, Rank 2, etc), each of which contains exactly 8 Miracles.

 

The Priest must pray daily to access his Miracles. He can invoke any Miracle from those he has access to on the Paths he knows. He has an Ordainment Level (different from his character level) which is essentially bought as a Perk might in HERO. As Umbar is Rank 2 he can invoke Rank 2 Miracles from his Path.

 

There is a limit to how many Miracles he can pray for per day, determined by the strength of his Faith attribute. It's like "memorisation points" for Magi, but this character is essentially Faithful enough to do all of them anyway. I feel it's maybe one thing I'm tempted to drop.

 

Miracles must be Invoked. This is a skill roll versus the difficulty of the Miracle, something determined by how powerful it is. Miracles of the same Rank might have different Invocation difficulties. They are, however, reliable once invoked and the only real penalty to Invocation is "disfavour" accrued from "sins" perpetrated against the deities' wishes. (One of the things I like about Umbar is that the player made him quite a sinner, on a path towards redemption.)

 

The invocation skill is modified by the character's Will attribute. It's also easier to invoke on "holy" ground, such as at a Shrine of Your Deity, and harder away amount the "heathen". Once prayed for, Miracles are only lost if you fumble the Invocation, or at Sunrise the next day. Prayer begins again (at least for Lightbringer Priests) at daybreak. It occurs to me that it'd be cool for different religious groups to have varying refreshment points in the day - the Moon Queen might be at Moonrise, for example.

 

One extra element is that Umbar, our hero, has acquired a talisman that requires him to protect a particular Shrine... but acts as a bonus modifier to Invocation tests, especially when in that Shrine.

 

Does that makes sense?

 

HELP!

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Keep in mind "Independent" is not a 6th-Edition legal limitation.  Focus and Real Weapon cover that.  Whether a magic item needs "Real Weapon" or "Unbreakable Focus" is a function of GM and setting; in some settings, a magic sword that never needs to be sharpened and cannot be broken is more appropriate than in others.  I would certainly say a magic weapon should have more BODY and DEF than a non-magic weapon, in most settings.

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The Priest of the Lightbringer (the one I need to port) is a follower of one of a pantheon of deities, the Sun God. He has access to Miracles, which are distinct from "Magick" because the branch of the Church of The Lightbringer that this character comes from is anti-Magick. (Another member of the party is a Witch-Hunter, a kind of Holy Assassin mixed with Inquisitor.)

 

Miracles are divided into Paths. Umbar, the character in question, follows the "Path of Helles Illuminated". Each Path is divided into Ranks (Rank 1, Rank 2, etc), each of which contains exactly 8 Miracles.

(comments deleted to avoid sounding stupid. I'm figuring it out as I go along.)

 

The Priest must pray daily to access his Miracles. He can invoke any Miracle from those he has access to on the Paths he knows. He has an Ordainment Level (different from his character level) which is essentially bought as a Perk might in HERO. As Umbar is Rank 2 he can invoke Rank 2 Miracles from his Path.

 

There is a limit to how many Miracles he can pray for per day, determined by the strength of his Faith attribute. It's like "memorisation points" for Magi, but this character is essentially Faithful enough to do all of them anyway. I feel it's maybe one thing I'm tempted to drop.

Okay, I'm a little confused. "Faithful enough to do all of them anyway." Meaning, to use each miracle exactly once? To use each miracle as often as he wants? Is there or is there not an upper limit to how many times this guy can get a miracle?

 

Miracles must be Invoked. This is a skill roll versus the difficulty of the Miracle, something determined by how powerful it is.

Default rules for Powers with a Required Skill Roll impose a penalty based on Active Points. You might want to base the Skill on EGO.

 

Miracles of the same Rank might have different Invocation difficulties. They are, however, reliable once invoked

Meaning what? No to-hit roll required?

 

and the only real penalty to Invocation is "disfavour" accrued from "sins" perpetrated against the deities' wishes. (One of the things I like about Umbar is that the player made him quite a sinner, on a path towards redemption.)

 

The invocation skill is modified by the character's Will attribute. It's also easier to invoke on "holy" ground, such as at a Shrine of Your Deity, and harder away amount the "heathen". Once prayed for, Miracles are only lost if you fumble the Invocation, or at Sunrise the next day. Prayer begins again (at least for Lightbringer Priests) at daybreak. It occurs to me that it'd be cool for different religious groups to have varying refreshment points in the day - the Moon Queen might be at Moonrise, for example.

Okay, it's getting clearer. Maybe.

 

Sun rises. Priest says Okay, I can get x number of first levels spells and y number of second level spells.

If x=8, say, and there are only 8 1st level spells written up, priest can request each one once

- or only 2 of them, but can use each 4 times

- or only 1, but 8 times

- etc

 

Then the same for the next "level" or rank or whatever of "spells" or miracles or whatever. In other words, like classic D&D.

 

Have I got it right?

 

If so, it's the sort of thing I look at and say "And people think HERO is complicated?"

 

That said, if you really want to port over this kind of mechanic, look at the Delayed Effect Advantage and at Trigger. One of these is probably what you'd want to use.

 

Conversely, you can ask yourself "what does the player really want or need, and what really makes sense for this God in this setting?" After all, why switch to Hero if you're not going to take advantage of the ability to fit the mechanics to the setting instead of having to fit your setting to the mechanics?

 

However, there IS one mechanical peculiarity about Hero you're probably about to stumble across. Don't forget to give any Healing Power you use the "Decreased Re-Use Duration" Advantage. Otherwise, if you heal someone once, neither you nor anyone else can heal them again until the next day. Healing is, by default, nerfed.

 

Personally, I like the idea of giving the priesthood a Contact with their Deity. Need a miracle? Pray and hope the God is listening. If They do respond, you have no control or foreknowledge of exactly what They do.

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary prays to Janus (a God who never turns His back on you!)

 

 

 

Oh, I almost forgot

 

One extra element is that Umbar, our hero, has acquired a talisman that requires him to protect a particular Shrine... but acts as a bonus modifier to Invocation tests, especially when in that Shrine.

 

Does that makes sense?

 

HELP!

This much is easy!

 

Talisman of the Shrine: (Total: 6 Active Cost, 4 Real Cost) +3 with Power Skill(6 Active Points); IAF (Requires Multiple Foci or functions at reduced effectiveness; -1/4), Conditional Power Obligated to protect the shrine (-1/4) (Real Cost: 4)

 

Grants a full +3 to rolls if within the shrine's precincts, and +1 otherwise. Will not function at all if shrine is defiled or destroyed, until it is reconsecreated or rebuilt

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Hmm... I clearly explained that badly. Yes, it's an evolution from D&D.

 

Here's what I think I want, combined with what the players will expect:

- a system that reflects the hierarchical flavour of the Church of the Lightbringer, and limits knowledge to Priestly Ordainment; in other words, the higher up the Priesthood you climb, the more power you get invested in you. There are political opportunities in there.

- a set of Miraculous powers which are flavoured to fit the deity in question: light, fire, sun, healing, detect and destroy Chaos, promote Law, and command.

- a definite list of powers which is limited, in this case to eight, per level of Ordainment.

- a need to invoke, requiring a combination of skill and willpower, and a risk of failure when under pressure or in unsanctified places; greater power should be harder to access.

- an element of "if you do what the god disapproves of, you'll not get his miracles".

- powers, such and healing, to be repeatable but require devotion and prayer to recharge.

 

Does that help clarify things?

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On the damage thing, my views are colored by the fact that I use the hit location and the impairing and disabling rules.

 

 

 

That is it.  I stay with more cinematic combat and really only use hit location for flavor if needed, not for the damage multiples.     But I can totally see why you'd want to keep damage levels down since you are using the gritty side.   Makes perfect sense.

 

In this specific instance, also, we're talking about a weapon the character has from inception so to speak, and that will probably be a more or less permanent feature of the character. Unless the weapon IS going to cost points, I'm not sure I think it's a good idea to hand the character a massively more powerful weapon and say "Happy birthday, here's a license to decapitate ogres on a regular basis."

 

I wasn't referring to the PC's at all.  I was just throwing a small example of a a general build and how you can add magic to an existing weapon.  There are a LOT of possible options and no matter what example is made there will always be a better or different approach.    I didn't even think of trying to give him an actual final build because I don;t know anything about the actual world he plans to run or the actual strength of the opposition.

 

Just look at our conversation about the damage dice.   Running in a world using my preferences a magic sword would be extremely rare and 2d6+1 would not be that overpowering.  But add in hit location, impairment, etc and 2D6+1 suddenly becomes extremely deadly.   

 

This is a good example of what can cause frustration in new HERO gamers.  The chicken or the egg problem.  On one hand it is hard to create a good and balanced item or character unless you have a good feel for the world build and the options the GM will be using.    On the other hand it is difficult for the new GM to decide one what options they will be using at the beginning without a chance to see how those options affect the game. 

 

In recent years I have adopted a policy on new RPG's.  The first game I run is never about the adventure I really want to run in the system.   I will always make a small one-shot adventure with disposable pre-gens as a try out game so I can get a feel for things.  Then I build the game I actually want to run using the one-shot as a "what not to do" measure.  

 

I am in the middle of building a Fantasy Hero one-shot for my LGG.  They are fine and even looking forward to playing HERO.  But they really don't like that HERO seems to have TOO many options.  They just don't have enough understanding of the system to create a good PC.  So I am going to run a few one-shots to let them get the feel on how to play and how power/ability builds work in play.  

 

One-Shot #1 will be a simple FH game with the PC's protecting a small village from goblin raiders.  A good chance to do some skillful tracking in the woods and a bit of hack and slash to demo combat.

 

One-Shot #2 will be a team of modern covert ops types taking on a monster in the sewers of Hudson City.

 

One-Shot #3 will be a four color supers team (old fashioned kiss the baby good guy heroes, no anti-types or vigilantes)  in a two-fisted knock down and blast'em battle with supervillains in the Emerald City. 

 

All of the PC pre-gens will be on my super duper striped down character sheets which do not include any build information.  I'll give them a copy of the full character sheets after play when they want to see how things were built and need examples for their own concepts. 

 

PS- Please don't take offense if i seem to be stating the obvious some times.  You've been around the the HERO block for years and most things are obvious.  I usually try to spell things out for the benefit of new players that may read the thread and so that it makes it easier for the more experienced players to correct me when I screw it up.    No one should ever feel I will get angry if they point out a mistake in one of my builds. 

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Here's what I think I want, combined with what the players will expect:

- a system that reflects the hierarchical flavour of the Church of the Lightbringer, and limits knowledge to Priestly Ordainment; in other words, the higher up the Priesthood you climb, the more power you get invested in you. There are political opportunities in there.

- a set of Miraculous powers which are flavoured to fit the deity in question: light, fire, sun, healing, detect and destroy Chaos, promote Law, and command.

Sounds like a VPP setup to me. Your church rank is directly related to the maximum pool size, and the number of active points a particular power can have is limited by the spheres of influence of the deity. Either rather exclusively, or using something like the old "domains" setup that AD&D had (where "major access" would be limitless or the total campaign limit, whereas "partial access" would be e.g. 20 Active Points).

 

For some deities that would be a bigger limitation than for others, so maybe a -1/4 or -1/2 limitation on the pool.

 

- a definite list of powers which is limited, in this case to eight, per level of Ordainment.

Okay, then it might be easier to build it with a Multipower. Eight fixed per deity or per miracle-worker? For some rather wide-"sphered" deity, a total number of eight spells across all the possible domains seems a bit low.

 

- a need to invoke, requiring a combination of skill and willpower, and a risk of failure when under pressure or in unsanctified places; greater power should be harder to access.

Requires Skill Roll + Side Effects seems to encompass that al.

 

- an element of "if you do what the god disapproves of, you'll not get his miracles".

That's the usual "Only When Serving the God's Purposes" limitation (-1/2).

 

- powers, such and healing, to be repeatable but require devotion and prayer to recharge.

I'd vote for a END Reserve based system here. Much easier to use than other systems and less artificially constrained. "Cool-downs" require too much bookkeeping or are tied to narrative concepts ("per scene"). And "per day" is just lazy, IMHO.

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Thanks for all the comments on the Priest so far. I am still trying to get my head around those.

 

In the meantime, I had another stab at Gerhad: 

Gerhad.pdf

 

Basically, I've upped the starting CP to 175 (50). I've also modified some elements to match extra comments from the player. I stole the Martial Arts for Halfreda (FH p444) and modelled some of the numbers on her example character sheet. Finally, I tried the .html export format suggested, which I really like but which will not print properly... still, the .PDF is easier to read.

 

He feels more rounded to me... but I bet I screwed something up.

 

 

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Just a note about converting directly.  I would be cautious making a +1 Sword in D&D terms into a +1 OCV sword in Hero.  
A +1 in a d20 system gives you +5% chance to hit.  With the 3d6 bell curve the actual percentage of the bonus depends on character's relative Combat Values, but assuming they are within 3 CV of each other a +1 OCV will be more than a 10% increase in your chance to hit, closer to a +2 sword in d20.  

If I remember correctly a +1 weapon in D&D applies both to your "to hit" and "damage" rolls.  I think if I was converting to Hero I would alternate between adding damage and OCV.  So +1 OCV but no additional damage for the +1 sword, +1 OCV and +1 DC for the +2 sword, and +2 OCV and +1 (or2) DC for the +3 sword.  (This is just off the top of my head so maybe not those exact numbers).  Flavor to taste with additional bonuses if desired such as additional OCV only to Block or Penalty Skill Levels versus Hit Locations, making called shots easier, or lowering the STR Min each stage to make it easier to add damage from STR, et cetera. 

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Hmm... I clearly explained that badly. Yes, it's an evolution from D&D.

 

Here's what I think I want, combined with what the players will expect:

- a system that reflects the hierarchical flavour of the Church of the Lightbringer, and limits knowledge to Priestly Ordainment; in other words, the higher up the Priesthood you climb, the more power you get invested in you. There are political opportunities in there.

So...I can't save up a few points and buy a miracle. I have to save up a LOT of points and buy 8 miracles at once.

 

- a set of Miraculous powers which are flavoured to fit the deity in question: light, fire, sun, healing, detect and destroy Chaos, promote Law, and command.

We may need working definitions of "Law" and "Chaos."

 

- a definite list of powers which is limited, in this case to eight, per level of Ordainment.

So, that lets out my "Contact" idea and lets out any Variable Power Pool - probably just as well. Variable Power Pools are not for beginners.

 

So - write up a standard list of 8 "Rank 1" spells. A list of 8 Rank 2 spells. Etc. To buy each set, you have to have both the points available, and in roleplaying terms you must have "earned" the next level of clerical investment.

 

edit: unless you want to completely decouple Powers from Character Points, and make miracles like weapons and armor, stuff you don't pay points for specifically. Set a cost for the "Rank" and if you have that, and are in good standing, you get access to the power. The power would still need to be written up, just as a magic weapon would be.

 

- a need to invoke, requiring a combination of skill and willpower, and a risk of failure when under pressure or in unsanctified places; greater power should be harder to access.

This part's easy. Requires a Skill roll, call the Skill Invocation, base it on EGO (willpower) and Hero automatically imposes a penalty based on Active Points i.e. "greater power harder to access."

 

by "risk of failure" I think you mean "chance it won't work." mhd seems to think you meant "chance something bad happens if it doesn't work" which is why he said "Side Effects."

 

- an element of "if you do what the god disapproves of, you'll not get his miracles".

Already pointed out, standard Limitation. Base the value of the Limitation on how easy it is stay in the God's good graces.

 

- powers, such as healing, to be repeatable but require devotion and prayer to recharge.

 

Does that help clarify things?

Getting there.

 

If it's like D&D, then the character has to, for example, at dawn, select the exact mix of spells available; and there is a set number available from each grouping of 8. So if he gets 10 of the first group, he might take 10 instances of "Cure Light Wounds" but can't use any of the others from that group that day. Or he could take, say, 5 of that one spell, and get another 5 different spells from among the other 7 in that first grouping.

 

Then he can get, say, 8 from the second group of 8, and again can take one of each, or 8 of one, or 4 of two, etc. But can't exchange a "slot" from this grouping to get one from the other group, or vice versa.

 

I have two questions: is this how it works in the system you're using, and is this how you WANT it to work?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary thinks Gygax is more to blame than Vance

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In the current system, the Miracles don't cost anything to know. They are a free gift, so I suspect it'll be best to de-couple Miracles (and Spells) and make them like equipment. These powers are, however, unusual and come with Priestly Ordainment, (inspired by beliefs like the Christian one that believers receive the Holy Spirit when they are Chrismated) so the cost is in obtaining that Ordainment.

 

As for Lucius' questions: broadly that's how it works right now (I can send a rules extract if you want more info), but I don't know if that's exactly how I want it to work in the HERO version because I am not very aware of alternatives.

 

EXTENSIVE EDIT: Actually, now that I'm awake and think about it, I rather like the idea of the deity as a Contact you call upon for help.

 

Would it work to give the Priest some "divinely imbued" powers, like Lay on Hands (healing), Turn Undead, Bless... and then for anything external, make him call upon Divine Intervention (Contact roll) for the god's own miraculous powers? Perhaps the Priestly Ordainment comes with knowledge of "Favours" which the god will do (each built as a Power, but in GM hands) and he needs to name the Favour and roll, perhaps with a penalty per active points? Or even, variable effect based on his roll? Ooo, is that getting complex?

 

I dunno if that makes sense. I am jamming here.

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In the current system, the Miracles don't cost anything to know. They are a free gift, so I suspect it'll be best to de-couple Miracles (and Spells) and make them like equipment. These powers are, however, unusual and come with Priestly Ordainment, (inspired by beliefs like the Christian one that believers receive the Holy Spirit when they are Chrismated) so the cost is in obtaining that Ordainment.

Isn't that differentiation a bit useless? A bit like a "free Ipad!" offer, as long as you sign an expensive contract. There might be some theological fine points in the game, but regarding the rule system, the ordainment is the power. This also gets you a more solid foothold regarding balancing.

 

At least I'd try to build it this way to see what cost range you'd need for the perk levels (I guess a few existing systems are built that way).

 

Comparing spells with equipment seems appropriate (and I just recently started a thread about handling spellbooks this way), but especially in a fantasy campaign most spell powers clearly trump normal equipment. Weapons for example just improve your innate ability to hurt people. Horses get you there a bit faster. But a lot of spells transcend normal human abilities or provide extreme shortcuts. I'd be very wary about balancing this -- even beyond mere points, of course. You can build lots of stuff that's almost game-breaking in some campaigns for a few measly points, like flying or poison invulnerability (immortality is also a lot cheaper than most traditions of wizardry and alchemy would expect, but it doesn't really tend to ruin adventures).

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Just thinking off the cuff here, but if we treat Miracles as equipment, then the character could need Perks as a prerequisite to accessing those Miracles (the perks reflecting his placement in the hierarchy of the priesthood).  The skill roll can then be set for each Rank, so the character must also invest points in the relevant skill to reliably use each Rank of  miracles, requiring a further investment in character points.

 

This would very much require a "by feel and intuition" balancing act for the point cost of each rank, but assessing the cost to buy the Miracles directly (and ensuring costs within any given rank are comparable) might help.

 

BTW, if you have not already been there, Killer Shrike's site (http://www.killershrike.com/) is a great source for Hero in Fantasy gaming (how can we get to a second page without a reference to KS)?

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In every Hero FH I have run where a 'priest' has the ability to gain miracles from their deity they character sheet still reflects 'purchasing' the power.  It just has a number of additional imitations.  One being Only when in the favor of the deity.  Another might be the requirement to pray for one hour each day in the morning.

 

All the "miracles" you are probably looking for can be found in the Grimoire books.  There are "spells" for light, darkness, chaos, law, healing, etc.  Just mix and match and adapt them into miracles.

 

As for what spells an initiate can have vs. someone with higher rank, you control that by providing the list of appropriate miracles the initiate can have.  If you are an initiate you get these 6 miracles and when you gain this rank (role playing) and XP (game mechanic), then we can talk about the next set.

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So, in simple terms, bluesguy, you are suggesting that the Priest is granted miracles that he pays for on his sheet. He would also have the Clerical investment Perk to represent Rank. When he gets to go to a higher rank, a combo of XP and roleplayed circumstances, he'd be able to buy the next set of powers. I guess I would pick some spells from the Grimoire and offer choices to the player - "here's eight possible Miracles, pick the ones you want to buy."

 

Is that what you are thinking?

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Thanks for all the comments on the Priest so far. I am still trying to get my head around those.

 

In the meantime, I had another stab at Gerhad: 

attachicon.gifGerhad.pdf

 

Basically, I've upped the starting CP to 175 (50). I've also modified some elements to match extra comments from the player. I stole the Martial Arts for Halfreda (FH p444) and modelled some of the numbers on her example character sheet. Finally, I tried the .html export format suggested, which I really like but which will not print properly... still, the .PDF is easier to read.

 

He feels more rounded to me... but I bet I screwed something up.

 

Honestly he could take two hits and be knocked out out in my previous campaign.  Is Gerhad basically a heavy fighter - right in the thick of a fight?  If so he is going to get the snot beat out of him. :-(

 

Personally I think his CON should be 18, STUN 30 (40 would be better), & END 35.  I would lower his OCV by 1.  Also if you change his DEX to 13 then you can lower some of the DEX based skills to 3pts instead of paying 5pts for them.

 

Cut back on the martial arts maneuvers, as the player gets XP then let them buy them back. They need at least 10 pts worth of maneuvers for martial arts.  I would select one of the two defensive ones (dodge or block) and two of the offensive ones (side slash and chop would be my recommendations).

 

20 points of Mental Def, and 20 points of Power Def. seems excessive.  By bumping up his PRE to 15 and making these 10 pts each you should more than likely cover any presence attack or mind control that could cause significant amounts of fear.

For instance:  He runs into a Greater Dragon (see Bestiary) which has a 40 PRE.  The dragon's casual PRE attack is going to average 8d6 (or 8*3.5 = 28 pts).  A poor normal with a 8 or 10 PRE is Very Impressed and losses 1/2 a phase.  But Gerhad with a 15 PRE + 10 Mental DEF is merely hesitant (must act after dragon).  Now lets say the dragon attacks one of Gerhad's companions and knocks out that character in one blow and says to Gerhad "I like dwarves - you are all so crunchy."  So as a GM I would say the dragon gets +1d6 for Exhibiting power, +2d6 for very violent action, and +1d6 for soliloquy.  So now we are talking a 12d6 PRE attack (or 12 * 3.5 = 42).  A poor normal wets their pants and passes out.  A character with a 15 PRE is in awe and will lose 1 full phase and be at 1/2 DCV.  But Gerhad is merely very impressed and loses 1/2 a phase.

 

And that was with a dragon.  Gerhad runs into orcs he laughs at their presence attacks.  He runs into ogres he just laughs at their presence attacks. 

 

Only the most powerful people and monster's have a chance of causing any level of fear in Gerhad if he has a 15 PRE and +10 Mental DEF/Power DEF vs Fear.

 

And he can always buy more PRE so he becomes way more impressive to his opponents.

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So, in simple terms, bluesguy, you are suggesting that the Priest is granted miracles that he pays for on his sheet. He would also have the Clerical investment Perk to represent Rank. When he gets to go to a higher rank, a combo of XP and roleplayed circumstances, he'd be able to buy the next set of powers. I guess I would pick some spells from the Grimoire and offer choices to the player - "here's eight possible Miracles, pick the ones you want to buy."

 

Is that what you are thinking?

Exactly.

 

In my previous campaign I used the Valdorian Age Hero setting. Here is a link the Game Mechanics I provided to my players.  Except for my wife everyone else was new to Hero.

 

Information about how I used magic and miracles in my campaign (this is where I parted ways with the Valdorian Age because of the book-keeping needed to run magic as described in the VA book).  Here is a link to the schools of magic that we used.  And finally a novice spell list.  The difference between a novice and priest is the number of active points available and the limitations.  If you are a novice and you miss your faith roll bad things happen to you.  Priests don't suffer from that side effect limitation.

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