My Thoughts on Complete Champions & Rules Clarifications

[jdounis]

Hello fellow Hero fans and a happy new year

 

I have recently acquired CC, being a Hero player from 5th Edition Revised.I really like this book and i haven't had any problem with it, but only because

i own 6EV1 & V2, i think much stuff in it require from the reader further clarification from the 6EV1 & V2.For example i don't think a new to Hero reader(Owning only CC)

will ever apply the Adding Damage Rules to an Advantaged power correctly because this is only indirectly referenced before the adding damage rules in CC.

Just my humble opinion.

 

Also where can i download errata now that the old site is closed?

 

Thank you in advance!

 

 

 

 

 

[Spence]

I didn't see the errata in the downloads section.  I attached a copy of the CC freebie & errata that was posted. 

Champs Complete Freebies And Errata.zip

[Spence]

 

I have recently acquired CC, being a Hero player from 5th Edition Revised.I really like this book and i haven't had any problem with it, but only because

i own 6EV1 & V2, i think much stuff in it require from the reader further clarification from the 6EV1 & V2.For example i don't think a new to Hero reader(Owning only CC)

will ever apply the Adding Damage Rules to an Advantaged power correctly because this is only indirectly referenced before the adding damage rules in CC.

 

 I don't follow.  Adding Damage (CC pg 157) is pretty clear to me.  Can you pop a page number and short quote on what part is unclear? 

 

I'm going to be introducing some players to HERO soon and it would be helpful to have an idea of where the rules may be unclear in the books.  

[jdounis]

 I don't follow.  Adding Damage (CC pg 157) is pretty clear to me.  Can you pop a page number and short quote on what part is unclear? 

 

I'm going to be introducing some players to HERO soon and it would be helpful to have an idea of where the rules may be unclear in the books.  

 

My biggest concern about new players are with the "Damage Classes DC"(CC pg 156) where it's written that damage classes are calculated

using the formule active points / 5 = DC, but it does not at all refer to how is this applied to Adding Damage to an advantaged attack power.

The same section writes about the "special Active Point calculation" but i am sure nobody owning/reading only CC will get the idea.

[Spence]

Hmmm...  

 

I read it and it all makes perfect sense, when wearing my old HERO grognard hat that is.  

 

Then I noticed there isn't a basic Damage Class table in CC like the one in the HSBR page 101. 

 

DC is such a basic core concept that many of us tend to forget it may not immediately make a lot of sense to a new player.  Now that I am thinking about it, I have used the DC Table several times when teaching a new player. 

 

Here is the basic idea.

 

DC   Killing      Normal
1      1 pip        1d6
2      ½d6         2d6
3      1d6          3d6
4      1d6+1      4d6
5      1½d6       5d6
6      2d6          6d6
7      2d6+1      7d6
8      2½d6       8d6
9      3d6          9d6
10    3d6+1     10d6
11    3½d6      11d6
12    4d6         12d6
13    4d6+1     13d6
14    4½d6      14d6
15    5d6         15d6

 

1d6 Killing and 3d6 Normal are both 3 DC and generally 15 points.

 

Usually just one glance at the chart clicks the concept in place and you don't really need it anymore. 
 

[jdounis]

Hmmm...  

 

I read it and it all makes perfect sense, when wearing my old HERO grognard hat that is.  

 

Then I noticed there isn't a basic Damage Class table in CC like the one in the HSBR page 101. 

 

DC is such a basic core concept that many of us tend to forget it may not immediately make a lot of sense to a new player.  Now that I am thinking about it, I have used the DC Table several times when teaching a new player. 

 

Here is the basic idea.

 

DC   Killing      Normal

1      1 pip        1d6

2      ½d6         2d6

3      1d6          3d6

4      1d6+1      4d6

5      1½d6       5d6

6      2d6          6d6

7      2d6+1      7d6

8      2½d6       8d6

9      3d6          9d6

10    3d6+1     10d6

11    3½d6      11d6

12    4d6         12d6

13    4d6+1     13d6

14    4½d6      14d6

15    5d6         15d6

 

1d6 Killing and 3d6 Normal are both 3 DC and generally 15 points.

 

Usually just one glance at the chart clicks the concept in place and you don't really need it anymore. 

 

 

Yeah i don't disagree that DC are pretty straightforward in all books(CC,HSBR,HS6EV1,2) what is not straightforward in CC is the concept off adding damage to Advantaged Attack Powers.

For example if we follow the instructions in CC pg.156 that starts "For attacks with advantages... " and we make that special Active Point calculation  for lets say an attack

with Base Cose 20 Points and with an Advantage(that modifies the way the victim takes damage) of +1/2, that equals 30 Active Points, and apply it to the above paragraph of "An attack’s DC is based on the number of Active Points in it divided by 5" we have no information on how the "Adding Damage" rules of CC.pg 157 apply to this CP/DC ratio, the information that is missing is that of HS6EV2 pg.97("Damage Classes of Advantaged Power") which is pretty crusial for game balance.

[Spence]

Ah!  And the light comes on.    I can be dense at times.

 

I think this would be best served with a specific example detailing its Added Damage. 

 

The big issue here is that it is up to the individual GM to rule on what applies.  They may not have added an example because of the tendency for rulebook examples to become cut in stone interpretations.

[Vondy]

 i don't think a new to Hero reader(Owning only CC) will ever apply the Adding Damage Rules to an Advantaged power correctly because this is only indirectly referenced before the adding damage rules in CC.

 

I don't know that people who have been playing Hero for decades will ever apply the Adding Damage Rules for Advantaged Attacks correctly even with 6E1 and 6E2 to guide them. The adding damage rules have become Byzantine.

[Christopher]

I don't know that people who have been playing Hero for decades will ever apply the Adding Damage Rules for Advantaged Attacks correctly even with 6E1 and 6E2 to guide them. The adding damage rules have become Byzantine.

Actually the 6E versions is a ton easier then the 5E version. No more seperation between heroic and superheroic. No more seperation between Sources of DC. It's now a totally uniform process from STR to Haymaker.

 

The only thing you really have to keep in mind is that Powers with advantages that Affect the DC calulcation have a different DC/Die Ratio. that does not even affect adding DC at all:

12DC+4DC = 16 DC.

Wheter those 12 DC are a "12d6 Blast", or a "8D6 +1/2" doesn't really mater.

[Hyper-Man]

Yep.es

 

The hardest part now is just determining which Advantages on a HA actually contribute to damage (ex: Reduced END does not so isn't counted).

 

You just add up all the relevant Advantages together and divide ALL the bonus DC (from STR, Manuever and CSL's) by that fraction.

 

From 6e2 page 98:
 

Advantages That Directly Affect Damage
As noted above, for purposes of calculating the DCs of an Advantaged attack, the GM determines which Advantages “directly affect how the victim takes damage.” Typically the following Advantages qualify, though the final decision is up to the GM: Area Of Effect, Armor Piercing, AVAD, Autofire, Boostable Charges, Constant, Cumulative, Damage Over Time, Does BODY, Does Knockback, Double Knockback, Increased STUN Multiplier, MegaScale in some instances, Penetrating, Sticky, Time Limit, Transdimensional, Trigger, Uncontrolled, Usable As Attack, Variable Advantage, and Variable Special Effects.

 

 

Example:

Say we build a HA +6d6 (30 Active Points) with Half END (+1/4) AOE 1m Accurate (+1/2) and IPE Normal Sight (+1/4) (60 Active Points)

 

Since only the AOE Accurate (+1/2) actually "directly affects how the victim takes damage" so any bonus DC's from STR, Manuevers and CSL's just needs to be totaled and divided by 1.5 (just like applying a Limitation) before being combined with the HA's base 6 DC's.  It actually IS easier than the way it was done in 5er.  Far less exceptions.

[Spence]

I don't know that people who have been playing Hero for decades will ever apply the Adding Damage Rules for Advantaged Attacks correctly even with 6E1 and 6E2 to guide them. The adding damage rules have become Byzantine.

 

I don't think it is as much doing it correctly as just ignoring parts of it because they don't want to bother,

 

not that I would ever do that