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Grimoire and Spells Components


lou_tennant

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I was just wondering how others deal with the spell components for the spells in the Grimoire.

 

Do you just take the 'Free' spell option?

I can see that this would be a simple option, but kind of removes the point of the components, which do add something to the spells and the spells. Especially when used in the TA setting as I am doing.

 

 

Do you remove the 'Expendable' from the focus?

I had toyed with this idea, even the idea of trying to give the focus/components a number of 'charges'. One reason is a wandering Arcanist is going to need a porter just to carry multiples of each component - not much good if you need to cast a spell twice but only have one 'crystal eye' (or whatever).

 

 

Do you leave it in place and make the Caster find the components?

This option then means that 'very difficult' to replace foci will cost an absolute fortune - so Arcanists better be the richest people on the planet.

If using this option does anyone have a 'price list' of the components at a 'typical' market value?

 

 

Given the (long-standing) problem with the HERO system and money; how much does 1 character point get you in money, if an item costs 50 Gold, how many character points (if any) do I need to spend as well. I have a general way that I am currently handling this, it is working so far.

How can a balance be struck; should characters be required to spend points on a Perk saying they have X number of components?

 

 

If the OAF: Component (difficult to replace, expendable) is to be a limitation, how do you stop it from being prohibitive in play?

 

I like the 'essence' of the spell components, it has also sorts of side-stories attached, adventurers go to places to collect a particular 'moss' for an alchemist because it is 'difficult' for him to obtain, and he pays them - but how much? How much is that moss worth? How many 'charges' of the moss can they collect?

 

It could prove a nice little earner for characters to help repair their kit, pay for lodgings, etc. if they collected various 'bits & bobs' on their travels that they know are in demand.

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I remove spell components as required features generally and instead have a bonus to rolls based on what I call sympathetic objects I stole from Steve Longs magic system he shared when he came to play with us.

I never liked spell components and gestures as mandatory, I even allow gestures to be over ridden with a skill penalty. But currently I still require power words for own existing fantasy game.

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Pretty much the same as in D&D. In some campaigns, micromanaging spell components is a fun part of the story (if managing resources in general matters), in some it's just part of what happens in the background, like travel rations. Quite often it's a mix, depending on how expensive, rare and importent the ingredient is. In HERO, you could easily build two types of "requires component" limitations for this, one where it's expendable, one where it isn't.

 

Generally I'm not the biggest fan of the concept, especially if it's mandatory and ubiquitous.

 

I recently posted a thread where components weren't required, but replaced the "requires skill roll" part. In that case, tracking them is important, of course.

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It depends on the components.  Some components are no big deal to get and so I 'hand wave' it by basically telling the person playing the spell caster they can have # of components for X amount of coin.  Some components are hard to get and expensive and so they have to take the time to get them.  Some of the components are expensive, hard to get and expendable and I will make the player track them.  If they can't show me a current list of how many they have then 'oops you must have lost, misplaced, or they were stolen'....

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In my new campaign world one of the ways I am distinguishing between the magic that anyone can cast vs. someone with a talent for magic is the element of components.  If you are someone who wants to learn a spell or two you can do that but you are stuck with components (and some other restrictions).  But if you are someone with a talent for magic then you can't have any components - except for one main focus (staff, rod, wand, etc).

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Given the (long-standing) problem with the HERO system and money; how much does 1 character point get you in money, if an item costs 50 Gold, how many character points (if any) do I need to spend as well. I have a general way that I am currently handling this, it is working so far.

How can a balance be struck; should characters be required to spend points on a Perk saying they have X number of components?

 

What long-standing problem with the HERO system and money?  Money is pretty much arbitrary and up to the GM depending on the campaign, just like virtually every other game in existences...

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You could also consider substituting in a Variable Limitation for a Focus Limitation. I've seen that done to simulate a more flexible magic system. If you didn't have the material components, you had a more difficult skill roll instead or maybe required gestures.

I could see Charges* (components), Skill Roll, Focus*, Gestures, Incantations, Concentration and Side Effect all fitting into a Variable Limitation.

*For those you have to define how many charges/wich Focus you have to sue beforehand of course. Charges used in this way would even bring thier 0 END effect along: http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/88284-charges-variable-limitations-and-end/

 

What long-standing problem with the HERO system and money?  Money is pretty much arbitrary and up to the GM depending on the campaign, just like virtually every other game in existences...

Except that virtually every other game lists prices for weapons, armors, other mundane items and spell components in the same currency. Hero has no such listing to work with (unless there is something in Fantasy Hero or the Equipment guide, don't have those).

Is 50 Gold Pieces okay, underpriced or overpriced for Spell X's Expendable Component? Not really possible to say unless you have a idea of what 50 GP buys you in mundane goods.

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What long-standing problem with the HERO system and money?  Money is pretty much arbitrary and up to the GM depending on the campaign, just like virtually every other game in existences...

 

The issue of how you convert points to money, or money to points - as a start. Then you have issue over characters building something out of points but not have the money to pay for it - or perhaps they do but how many do they need.

 

Also the balance between 'loot' like magic items as a 'monetary' gain and the cost in points to a character.

 

 

There are some prices lists out there and you can work out some calculations to work out the money to points conversion, but it does not remain consistent. 

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I could see Charges* (components), Skill Roll, Focus*, Gestures, Incantations, Concentration and Side Effect all fitting into a Variable Limitation.

*For those you have to define how many charges/wich Focus you have to sue beforehand of course. Charges used in this way would even bring thier 0 END effect along: http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/88284-charges-variable-limitations-and-end/

 

Except that virtually every other game lists prices for weapons, armors, other mundane items and spell components in the same currency. Hero has no such listing to work with (unless there is something in Fantasy Hero or the Equipment guide, don't have those).

Is 50 Gold Pieces okay, underpriced or overpriced for Spell X's Expendable Component? Not really possible to say unless you have a idea of what 50 GP buys you in mundane goods.

 

Charges is definitely something I had considered, to represent that a skilled caster can use less of a given component, potentially the other aspects is to say that once you skilled enough you can cast without the component.

 

I also agree that another way might be X components cost you Y, and you need to keep track of the components. Over time it costs less as a caster becomes more efficient.

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The issue of how you convert points to money, or money to points - as a start. Then you have issue over characters building something out of points but not have the money to pay for it - or perhaps they do but how many do they need.

 

Also the balance between 'loot' like magic items as a 'monetary' gain and the cost in points to a character.

 

 

There are some prices lists out there and you can work out some calculations to work out the money to points conversion, but it does not remain consistent. 

 

It's not really intended to be consistent. A heavy machine gun and a diamond ring may cost the same, but their in-game utility (and thus points cost) are not the same.

So points do not equal money, and vice versa - and to be honest, there isn't any way to make them consistent: it's like complaining that the richter scale and measurements of GDP are not consistent, and that the magnitude of earthquakes doesn't always correlate year to year with GDP. 

 

It's true that they don't correlate, but then, they were never intended to: they measure different things.

 

cheers, Mark

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In regards to component usage, maybe an apprentice is horribly inefficient in their consumption rate, needing a handul of material or more costly things, whereas a master only needs a pinch instead. Would it be better to recost each spell to show more efficient component usage at mastery or just estimate the savings of the lesser Limitation and then buy it out as a naked purchase, creating some kind of mastery Talent?

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If they're Undead Orc Infants, I'd advise to buy now. The paladins are cornering the market on the raw material, so expect prices to rise. You didn't hear this from me.

 

Didn't some games use some sort of "mono-component", i.e. a fuel that's valid for all spells, without any allusion of sympathetic magic or quests for unique ones? "Solid mana", basically. That would probably be a good choice if you like mixing economy with your fantasy or are fond of heavy-handed allegories.

(Similar examples would be Dune's spice or the metals of the Mistborn series. Can't quite remember which actual game I'm thinking of)

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My world uses the tears of undead infants* as currency.  How much is 50GP in the tears of undead infants? 

 

* Not really.

 

 

This post serves no purpose and does not relate to this topic/thread - All it does is increase your post count, which is presumably the only reason for it.

 

Sorry, there was a point buried in among the snark.  50 gold pieces in one campaign world might be 5 silver pieces in another, or five drams of undead infants' tears in another.  There's no point at all in trying to pin down points-to-money ratios, because anything related to money in fantasy worlds is so subjective.  How much is this sword worth?  It took a highly skilled craftsman two weeks to make, so how much does a highly skilled craftsman earn for two weeks' work?  5 silver or 50 gold?  How much does he want to mark it up?  I played in one campaign once where copper was extremely valuable and useful, so everything normally denominated in silver was in copper, and vice versa.  

 

Once you know what money is worth in a world, then you -- might -- be able to come up with a points to money ratio, for that world.  Me, I hate 1 point = x money, no matter what, because that money gets spent, but the point is tied up, or goes away forever.  I hate even worse points that you spend that go away forever, because the HERO System breaks when you do that.  Points aren't currency and don't act like it.  

 

To answer your original question:  characters are assumed to have all of the components they need to cast the spells they have, probably enough for approximately one session's worth of castings.  If they've taken Limitations to the effect that they are Expendable, expensive Foci, the Limitation value is tied to how hard the Focus is to find.  If you can buy them at the corner market, take the -1/4 value.  If the corner market doesn't always have them, but they can be found in the wild, take the -1/2, and they're correspondingly more expensive or difficult.  If they're exceedingly rare and dangerous (and expensive) then it's -1.  

 

How much is that in gold pieces?  I can't tell you.  How much is that in gold pieces in your world?  

 

Another thing to keep in mind:  if one caster needs incredibly expensive components for spells, others probably need the same components for the same spells.  If you as a PC find a bunch of them, you can sell them.

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Following up my own post, and hopefully a little more helpful:  if components are Expendable at the -1/4 level, then probably about every session or so, during downtime, the player should say something like "I'm replenishing my spell components at the local market."  You probably don't need to be more specific than that.  At the -1/2 level, you can make it expensive.  (How expensive?  Your call.)  At the -1 level, it's probably a specific trip that you game out to acquire.  

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The issue of how you convert points to money, or money to points - as a start. Then you have issue over characters building something out of points but not have the money to pay for it - or perhaps they do but how many do they need.

 

Also the balance between 'loot' like magic items as a 'monetary' gain and the cost in points to a character.

 

 

There are some prices lists out there and you can work out some calculations to work out the money to points conversion, but it does not remain consistent.

Please examine the following two items, their descriptions and mechanical write ups. Note especially that they both cost 2 Real Points, although the second actually has more Active Points.

 

Your Majesty, if you drain the contents of this miraculous flask, you will retard the ravages of age! Though 25 years pass, your face and body and mind age no more than a day. What is more, if you acquire certain secret and precious ingredients, the secret of which I will reveal if you purchase the flask itself, and place them in the vessel then fill it with purified water, it will brew another dose of the same potion if left alone for a year - and it will be 25 years until you require it again for yourself, so you may share this gift with up to two dozen of your closest and dearest companions. Generations to come will rejoice in and thrive under your wise and benevolent rule!

Behold, the Elixir of Youth!:

(Total: 5 Active Cost, 2 Real Cost) Life Support (Longevity: Immortal) (5 Active Points); OAF Expendable (Difficult to obtain new Focus; -1 1/4), 1 Continuing Charge lasting 25 Years which Recovers every >1 Season (-1/4) (Real Cost: 2)

 

Your Majesty, are your court jester's japeries and pratfalls growing stale? This enchanted item, in appearance but a jester's bauble, is empowered to once every seven days call forth a pair of gag writers able, with a little cajoling or bribery, to provide fresh and funny materiel. Along with the staff I will provide a list of names to be called and their specialties, so your jester will be prepared to entertain your guests whatever their nature or preferences, whether they be innocent young princes and princesses, barbarian envoys who enjoy the coarse and vulgar, or fellow civilized monarchs of refined taste such as your esteemed and honorable self. Rulers of far lands will make pilgrimage to your court to enjoy your entertainment!

 

 

 Behold, the Jester's Staff!: 

(Total: 14 Active Cost, 2 Real Cost) Summon 2 10-point Gag Writer, Specific Beings (+1) (14 Active Points); 1 Charge which Recovers every 1 Week (-2 1/2), OAF (-1), Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), Only to Activate, -3/4), Gestures (Requires both hands; -1/2), Incantations (-1/4), Antagonistic Annoyed (-1/4) (Real Cost: 2)

 

 

As I said, both cost 2 pts, and the Jester's Staff is almost three times the Active Points. I was going to say that no king in fiction, gaming, or The World They call Real, would offer the same treasure in exchange for both items, let alone more for the Staff than for the Elixir, but then I realized that would probably not be true - fiction, gaming, and the world I (and presumably you) live in, all abound in mad monarchs after all. But I maintain that no king in his right mind, if convinced the items are exactly as represented to be, would offer the same price for both, or be willing to exchange the Elixir of Youth for the Jester's Staff.

 

 

Now, if you claim that these two items actually should have the same monetary value, I can say nothing to that except that I might like to play in your game, if only to see how such a world would work.

 

If you claim that they shouldn't and therefore they should not cost the same in points either, well, that could lead to an interesting discussion. To start with, it means you're saying there is something pretty fundamentally wrong with the way the Hero system works. Or maybe just with the way I use it, but I bet most other experienced Hero players could do something similar to what I just did.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

what price for a palindromedary?

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And just to hammer the final nail into the topic, a mundane example. A merchant in Lacramar - a large, bustling trading city - buys a mundane shortsword from a blacksmith for 2 pieces of gold. it's a 1d6 HKA, OAF, real weapon, STR min 8 weapon). He then puts it in with the other goods in his caravan travels across the dusty plains of the serene republic, through the sere crags of the Kintamo mountains, across the burning plains of Kehesh and finally sells it to one of the barbarian chiefs for its weight in gold dust - worth about 40 gold pieces once he gets it home.  So is a 1d6 HKA, OAF, real weapon, STR min 8 weapon worth 2 GP or 40?

 

The answer is ... it depends.

 

cheers, Mark

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To get back on topic...

 

Given the (long-standing) problem with the HERO system and money; how much does 1 character point get you in money, if an item costs 50 Gold, how many character points (if any) do I need to spend as well. I have a general way that I am currently handling this, it is working so far.

How can a balance be struck; should characters be required to spend points on a Perk saying they have X number of components?

 

 

In answer to the question "if an item costs 50 Gold, how many character points do I need to spend" - None. Just spend the 50 Gold, or whatever. The character ALREADY SPENT (presumably) Character Points on the spell, no need to spend more on the components.

 

As for a Perk...here's one possible structure

 

The categories of Expendable are

 

Easy to replace

Difficult to replace

Very Difficult to replace

Extremely Difficult to replace

 

Easy: you can pick this up almost anywhere. Salt would be an example in most worlds, or a commonly locally available herb that can be spotted and picked up beside any road during the proper season. No Perk called for.

 

Difficult: A 1 pt Perk tied to a specific spell makes the Difficult easy. Perhaps the mage knows how to substitute more common items, has a contact who sells cheap, etc. If a group of 2 to 5 spells have the same component, or the same Perk covers them all, it's a 2 pt Perk. A 3 pt Perk provides for all Difficult components.

 

Very Difficult: Same cost structure but with a stricture that there must be something else that justifies it on the sheet; PS Alchemy perhaps, or a spell that could conceivably transform small quantities of something else into what is needed, or a Contact actually bought with points,

 

Extremely Difficult: No Perk allowed. Replacing this is always going to involve some kind of travel, effort, or sacrifice.

 

 

Not advocating the above, but it's a place to start thinking about it IF that's how you want to do things.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Note that a palindromedary is Extremely Difficult to replace for anyone else but Easy to replace for me, much as any given palindromedary may resent that

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