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Unlimited Summoning?


Steve
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There is an upwards limit on Summoning. Are there ways this could be eliminated without just handwaving it?

 

If I put the power into a VPP which is for Summoning only, is this a way to get around the maximum?

 

I'm trying to figure out how I could create a Base (a factory) that can produce unlimited numbers of something using Summon as the power.

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Well, I see in the power that there is a "GM's Option" about the maximum number of Summoned beings. Thanks for pointing me at the right page.

 

I was looking to write up a clone production facility for Blade Runner-style replicants and Summon seemed to be the only power for making each replicant.

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Well, I see in the power that there is a "GM's Option" about the maximum number of Summoned beings. Thanks for pointing me at the right page.

 

I was looking to write up a clone production facility for Blade Runner-style replicants and Summon seemed to be the only power for making each replicant.

You don't need to write up a summon to let a Character meet an ememy. At most you have a special effect for having a Faceless Goon.

Hero does no work so well with Mass Combats (especially few agaisnt hordes), so fighting should propably be limited to a few groups of foes already decanted. Not an actuall unending Stream.

 

Actually, Summons limitations can work to your Advantage here, if you do want an unending stream:

Asume there are only going to be X enemies fighting the Protagonsits at once. The Clone Machine will replenish the numbers as units/clones get disabeled. The orientation time is the time Clones need to figure out what is going on.

That the newcommers are exactly enough to fill out - that just happens to fit that way. In reality(special effect) it is just that exactly those units where ready at exactly this time (and not earlier or later).

If the Characters are not fighting the Factory, it's exact workings are not relevant. It can still function as the Plot device that produce Replicants for hte Background Story. It's Summon Power is only relevant when Characters are fighting the Machine.

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I've unintentionally given a wrong impression.

 

This isn't actually something being run by a villain. I was thinking more like a factory that creates replicants for sale that I was building as a Base, part of a corporation. They will take a while to create, a month perhaps to reach maturity, so I was thinking of using the limit on Summoning as more showing how many can be created in a single batch.

 

In this case, the "controller" would probably be the AI that runs the production line and handles the programming of the replicants under human oversight.

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Look to the power of the geometric progression.  5 points is x2 summons.  10 doublings (50 points) is over 1000 things you can summon.  20 doublings (100 points) is over a million.  Spend 165 points, 33 doublings and you are over 8 billion.  8 BILLION.  More than the population of this planet.  That is easily doable if you spread the base cost over several characters.  Face it, you are never going to get through 8 billion clones, are you?  If you even get close, well, corporations can earn experience too (or at least the members can invest more XP...)  Then there is the use of enormous numbers of limitations that will bring that cost right down ;)

 

I don't think that is your problem, I think your problem is you are not going to get them obey you (or whoever you sell them to) for long.

 

Just saying...

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I've unintentionally given a wrong impression.

 

This isn't actually something being run by a villain. I was thinking more like a factory that creates replicants for sale that I was building as a Base, part of a corporation. They will take a while to create, a month perhaps to reach maturity, so I was thinking of using the limit on Summoning as more showing how many can be created in a single batch.

If it needs something in the scale of a month to cast it is not a combat power. Summon is a Combat ability to create a independant sheet that fights for you. Anything on that timescale is background stuff, not something that belongs on a sheet.

 

1 Month would also be how long it might take to just take a normal goon, give him some surgical to look like the target, a brainwashing/memory implant and let him run out. And you would propably not even consider building that with Summon. Or as any form of power.

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Whilst you're all right, you can handwave this sucker, we probably wouldn't be posting here if some small part of our hind-brain did not constantly scream 'Yes, yes, but how WOULD you build it?"

How do you write up Vipers ability to recruit new people to put in those Ridiculous outfits?

How do you write up Foxbats abilities to have Foxbattlebots and Crazy Fans to do his bidding?

How do you write up Teleios ability to make clones of himself?

How do you write up a Characters ability to repalce a lost Follower as per the rules for Followers?

The answer is: You do not.

 

This replicant Factory is nothing but a different Special Effect for something everyone was able to do all along.

It might still have a story effect: i.e. it might be faster/more resource effective* then conventional recruitement and training. So if it is not dealt with, it would eventually overrun the Heroes/Protagonists/the Rebelion**/the Compettion. But the heroes/protagonists enter the scene long before this could happen and will deal with it before it is a problem.

But it does not have any game effect. What it does is not only outside combat time, it is outside adventure time entirely. Most skills would fall out of Combat time, but this is a even bigger scale.

 

 

*Chances are it is more expensive. Cloning and memory implants are not that easy. It runs into tons of problems normal recruitement sidesteps by using "naturally grown" people. It might be more effective for highly trained people, but for average joe with 2 weeks of Shooting Range behind him it is a lot cheaper to "produce" via Recruitment and Selection.

 

**The Clone Factories on Kamino were one of the first Targets of the Rebels in Star Wars. The Force Unleashed 2 deals with this as it's story. The only thing that army had going for it was that "it was there". The Republic lacked a unified military at the time, but the Clones were a fully trained, standing, loyal army million soldiers strong. With existing traning Facilities to create replacements as nessesary.

Attacking it is not different from destroying any other planet sized Traning Camp and Conscription Coordination Center.

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Okay, in the spirit of system exploration, and acknowledging this is pure rule-bending wankery... but how about basing this on Charges and Experience? The Summon is built with one Charge that Never Recovers, so that when the clones are grown the Summon is "permanently" used up. Then the factory must "earn" enough Experience Points to buy another Summon. The conditions for earning those XP can be whatever you (and your GM if not you) consider appropriate: time, acquisition of raw materials, successful Skill Rolls for the growing of the clones, etc. Technically the Summon is a newly-bought Power, so has no relationship to the number of clones previously manufactured.

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That's an interesting approach, using a non-recoverable charge. A company has unused experience points that it uses to fund creation of a product would be a bit like expecting a wizard to expend experience points to create a magic item. The company invests character points to create the initial batch of products, there is drama within the company during the process that earns it some more experience points, then at the end it spends those experience points on another batch of product. Perhaps the company purchases a point of Wealth and plows the rest into another non-recoverable charge of the power, representing the resources needed to make it.

 

To answer an earlier comment on Teleios, there was such a write-up done for his clones, part of his biochemical wizardry PVP. Perhaps it was only in his 5th Edition version.

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To answer an earlier comment on Teleios, there was such a write-up done for his clones, part of his biochemical wizardry PVP. Perhaps it was only in his 5th Edition version.

 

I looked at Teleios's 6E write-up in CV1, and that particular VPP Power slot (statted as Duplication for his 5E incarnation) did not transition over. His Cloned Army slot (using Summon) also didn't translate to 6E; although that would obviously have needed a GM exemption if it would be the basis of his manufactured-soldier-sale business.

 

Frankly, I was disappointed that several of Teleios's other cool 5E slave creations -- his Monstersaurus, Chameleon Claw, and Piranhagator (coming soon from Roger Corman ;)) weren't updated either.

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Frankly, I was disappointed that several of Teleios's other cool 5E slave creations -- his Monstersaurus, Chameleon Claw, and Piranhagator (coming soon from Roger Corman ;)) weren't updated either.

 

Gee Willikers, Batman!

 

That looks like a job for the incredible Lord Laiden! {cue Adam West Batman theme}

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....

 

But it does not have any game effect. What it does is not only outside combat time, it is outside adventure time entirely. Most skills would fall out of Combat time, but this is a even bigger scale.

 

...

 

Two quick points:

 

1. 'Don't' is not the same as 'can't'.

2. This reveals a problem that Hero tends to promote: all that is important about the characters, the only reason we use points, is to balance things in combat.

 

That second issue is a big one.  Hero does not really concentrate on the role playing aspects of characters a lot.  It still betrays its roots as an action comic simulator, where dialogue and background are a way to get from one battle to another because that is what the Fanboyz want to see.

 

Why can you not build VIPER as an organisation with limited character points that it has to invest in its recruiting centres and robot factories?  The Heroes take a facility down and it actually take points off VIPER.  They have a real impact on its global operation, may even make it too expensive for VIPER to remain in a particular location.  This could be the basis of an interesting campaign where you are not just fighting the next challenge the GM has lined up, but you can sandbox a lot more and create a strategy for dealing with huge multinational corporations.

 

Just a thought...

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Okay, in the spirit of system exploration, and acknowledging this is pure rule-bending wankery... but how about basing this on Charges and Experience? The Summon is built with one Charge that Never Recovers, so that when the clones are grown the Summon is "permanently" used up. Then the factory must "earn" enough Experience Points to buy another Summon. The conditions for earning those XP can be whatever you (and your GM if not you) consider appropriate: time, acquisition of raw materials, successful Skill Rolls for the growing of the clones, etc. Technically the Summon is a newly-bought Power, so has no relationship to the number of clones previously manufactured.

If you want to permanently invest points for extra Sheets, just use Follower already.

The "Cloning Factory" is the special effect of you aquired the Follower. Nothing more, nothing less.

Don't get hung up on the SPECIAL Effect of Coloning Factory. It's GAME effect is what defines the build, special effect is secondary.

 

Two quick points:

 

1. 'Don't' is not the same as 'can't'.

2. This reveals a problem that Hero tends to promote: all that is important about the characters, the only reason we use points, is to balance things in combat.

 

That second issue is a big one.  Hero does not really concentrate on the role playing aspects of characters a lot.  It still betrays its roots as an action comic simulator, where dialogue and background are a way to get from one battle to another because that is what the Fanboyz want to see.

As I corrected myself, it is not only out of combat time. But entirely out of adventure time.

A lot of skills fall out of Combat time but still have relevancy for an adventure.

A Clone that takes 1 Month to grow is just plain outside of the Scope of any normal adventure. Anything beyond 1 Day is difficulty to use in game (Powers, Limitations and Complications alike).

 

Why can you not build VIPER as an organisation with limited character points that it has to invest in its recruiting centres and robot factories?  The Heroes take a facility down and it actually take points off VIPER.  They have a real impact on its global operation, may even make it too expensive for VIPER to remain in a particular location.  This could be the basis of an interesting campaign where you are not just fighting the next challenge the GM has lined up, but you can sandbox a lot more and create a strategy for dealing with huge multinational corporations.

That sounds like a "Evil Organsiation Simulator" first, an actuall Role Playing game concept last.

You only statt out what heroes are in direct Conflict* with. For anything else stats are just unessesary.

Nothing says you cannot do that. But how do you define how many CP worth of "damage" the Characters dealt to the Viper Sheet?

 

*Note that Conflict is a much more inclusive term then Combat. There can be conflict without any combat, but any form of Combat is usually a Conflict.

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Ok, so I agree that this should be background stuff, but for the sake of argument, how about you build a base (the factory), that contains a machine (a compound power) that looks like this:

 

Replicant Maker:  (Total: 247 Active Cost, 95 Real Cost) Multiform (175 Character Points in the most expensive form) (Real Cost: 35) <b>plus</b> Duplication (creates 1000 175-point Duplicates), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Altered Duplicates (100%; +1) (212 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Month, Only to Activate, -2 1/2), Cannot Recombine (-0) (Real Cost: 60)

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