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Combat Skills / Character Generation


Hendrix

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I need a crash course in combat skills as they relate to character generation.  The rule book seems fuzzy to me.  Also, can anyone point to any other resources on the subject.

 

For example, I see "+1 HTH" or "+1 with Firearms" in sample character sheets but no description of a HTH or Firearms skill in the rule set.

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I need a crash course in combat skills as they relate to character generation.  The rule book seems fuzzy to me.  Also, can anyone point to any other resources on the subject.

 

For example, I see "+1 HTH" or "+1 with Firearms" in sample character sheets but no description of a HTH or Firearms skill in the rule set.

 

"+1 HTH" or "+1 with Firearms" are just final applications of combat skill levels. 

 

Champions Complete:  Page 27.

6th Edition: Volume 1 page 69.

CSL’s have various costs depending on how versatile you want them to be.

 

 

You can also increase a PC’s Characteristic directly.

Champions Complete:  Page 18.

6th Edition: Volume 1 page 40.

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"+1 HTH" or "+1 with Firearms" are just final applications of combat skill levels. 

 

Champions Complete:  Page 27.

6th Edition: Volume 1 page 69.

CSL’s have various costs depending on how versatile you want them to be.

 

 

You can also increase a PC’s Characteristic directly.

Champions Complete:  Page 18.

6th Edition: Volume 1 page 40.

 

 

OR if you don't have the other Hero books (like me) you have to muddle through it.  Here's my understanding of Combat Skill Levels:

 

The more specific the attack type the fewer points it takes to buy a +1 OCV.  Trip Jones for example, has some serious bonus's associated with his tomahawk, but it doesn't cost very much because it's a single weapon type.  If he were to expand that to melee weapons in general it would cost more.  If he were to expand that to ALL attacks it would cost even more! So in the MHIEH books when it lay's out the tiers, it's (not very clearly) trying to give you guidelines for how narrow or broad your want those bonuses to apply.

 

I'm beginning to discover that the secret for getting the most bang for your buck in this system, is to apply limitations to EVERYTHING.  The more specific you are about what a skill or power can or can't do the better.

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The basic game rules in all the versions are essentially the same. 

 

The MHI books has the core rules, more in-depth modern weapons and other appropriate to setting information such as spells spell.

 

Champions Complete has the core rules and information geared toward Superheroes.

 

The Hero System Sixth Edition: Volume 1 Character Creation and  Volume 2 Combat And Adventuring are very in-depth non-genre specific volumes that have a lot of detail and guidance for just about everything. 

 

For example the power effect Aid.

 

In Champions Complete it is covered by a 120 word entry.

In MHIEH the same power is 254 words. 

In 6E vol 1 it is 1126 word including multiple options and examples. 

 

The document outlining the differences is called Champions Complete Converting Characters.  The differences between the two are minimal, covered in about a half page.

 

The best purchase for Hero System Sixth Edition: Volume 1 and Volume 2 is the combo bundle here  

(This is for the PDF only bundle, I think the print version is no longer in stock)

 

Just remember that you do not need 6E1&2 if you have MHI or CC, but if you are a serious Hero gamer you will find yourself wanting a copy.   Just remember that Hero is a Toolkit game and that their are minor differences between 6th and CC/MHI.

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I'm kicking around the idea of buying the PDF.  The description of how to handle combat related skills seems very inconsistent to me in the MHI book.  For example, "+1 HTH" and "+1 with Firearms" are not explained anywhere in the MHI book but are listed in the sample characters.  I'm not seeing that any specific weapon related skills are listed at all.  That being said, I've not familiar with the Hero system and haven't played it.  My experience is the old original D&D, AD&D, Top Secret, Traveler, and several other older games from the 70's to the early 90's.

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I'm kicking around the idea of buying the PDF.  The description of how to handle combat related skills seems very inconsistent to me in the MHI book.  For example, "+1 HTH" and "+1 with Firearms" are not explained anywhere in the MHI book but are listed in the sample characters.  I'm not seeing that any specific weapon related skills are listed at all.  That being said, I've not familiar with the Hero system and haven't played it.  My experience is the old original D&D, AD&D, Top Secret, Traveler, and several other older games from the 70's to the early 90's.

 

Those '+1 with' are OCV bonuses that make it easier for your attack to hit. Their price increases as the size of the group they apply to increases, starting at a single weapon type, through a small group like firearms, a large group like all Hand to Hand attacks, to all Combat.

 

The only Weapons skills per se are Weapon Familiarities that offset the -3 OCV penalty for using a weapon you don't have that skill for.  There are a few others to offset penalties for some less-frequently used cases (not sure which are in MHI).

 

The PDF is probably a good idea.  It'll cover more of those edge cases, has lots of examples, and isn't limited (or aimed at) any specific genre.

 

Chris.

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I'm kicking around the idea of buying the PDF.  The description of how to handle combat related skills seems very inconsistent to me in the MHI book.  For example, "+1 HTH" and "+1 with Firearms" are not explained anywhere in the MHI book but are listed in the sample characters.  I'm not seeing that any specific weapon related skills are listed at all.  That being said, I've not familiar with the Hero system and haven't played it.  My experience is the old original D&D, AD&D, Top Secret, Traveler, and several other older games from the 70's to the early 90's.

 

Hendrix,

 

My entire group is in your same boat.  I bought the RPG because I love Larry's books but frankly, Mr. Long slapped this book together without taking into account folks like you and I.  Most of the monsters have been put together using rules that are not in the MHI book, and he was inconsistent in describing what rules govern the bonuses recieved by the characters in the book.

 

The only thing I can tell you is that this forum has been a great resource for me to clear things up, and actually playing a session really helped as well.  I started a campaign where the first session was "training" for the new inductees.  I kept the combat very simple, but as we all played the mechanics worked themselves out fairly quickly.  After we were done, I pretty much had to let the entire team shuffle their characters around because the first session was so instructive, and we were all learning as we went.

 

T

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I'm kicking around the idea of buying the PDF.  The description of how to handle combat related skills seems very inconsistent to me in the MHI book.  For example, "+1 HTH" and "+1 with Firearms" are not explained anywhere in the MHI book but are listed in the sample characters.  I'm not seeing that any specific weapon related skills are listed at all.  That being said, I've not familiar with the Hero system and haven't played it.  My experience is the old original D&D, AD&D, Top Secret, Traveler, and several other older games from the 70's to the early 90's.

 

 

Hendrix,

 

My entire group is in your same boat.  I bought the RPG because I love Larry's books but frankly, Mr. Long slapped this book together without taking into account folks like you and I.  Most of the monsters have been put together using rules that are not in the MHI book, and he was inconsistent in describing what rules govern the bonuses received by the characters in the book.

 

The only thing I can tell you is that this forum has been a great resource for me to clear things up, and actually playing a session really helped as well.  I started a campaign where the first session was "training" for the new inductees.  I kept the combat very simple, but as we all played the mechanics worked themselves out fairly quickly.  After we were done, I pretty much had to let the entire team shuffle their characters around because the first session was so instructive, and we were all learning as we went.

 

T

 

The two statements are incorrect.  But that is not a cut against you, because it is explained by you noting that all of your previous experience was using D&D and other pre-packaged systems that restrict you to a list of pre-defined options.     If you want to just pick up a book, pick a class, pick some feats and go.  Hero System is not for you.  If you want a systems that allows you to build anything you can conceive, then you need a system like Hero.

 

In other worlds, you need to actually read the rules, and the build a character.  And by read I mean learn and understand, not skim so you can find the option later.

 

Let’s looks at the specific question Hendrix had.  He states,  "For example, "+1 HTH" and "+1 with Firearms" are not explained anywhere in the MHI book but are listed in the sample characters.  I'm not seeing that any specific weapon related skills are listed at all" and I said that was a false statement.

 

Now I am going to break it down, I'm not being condescending by spelling everything out to make you look bad, but I am making sure I don't screw the pooch by messing up the explanation :stupid:

 

Let’s take the first one: +1 HTH

 

That means +1 Hand to Hand or that the character has a +1 they can apply to any non-ranged hand to hand combat.  If I look for that as a specific item I don't see it in the rules. The reason is because all flavors of combat pluses are related and having a skill listing of +1 with knives, +1 with pistols, +1 with firearms is a waste of space.  Instead we ask, what is a +1 HTH?  It is a skill level used in combat, or a Combat Skill Level.

 

On page 96 of the MHIEH we see that Combat Skill Levels are mentioned.   The listing includes 2, 3, 5, 8 and 10 point levels.  Since +1 Hand to Hand indicates getting a +1 with any hand to hand combat we are obviously not talking about 2 or 3 point.  So let us read 5 point and 8 point.

 

5-Point Combat Skill Levels

A 5-point Combat Skill Level can add +1 to a character’s OCV or +1

to his DCV with a Large Group of attacks. _is means more attacks

than a Small Group, but fewer than “all HTH Combat” or “all Ranged

Combat,” such as All Firearms, or any Martial Arts style with more

than three Martial Maneuvers.

 

8-Point Combat Skill Levels

An 8-point Combat Skill Level can add +1 to a character’s OCV or +1

to his DCV with either All HTH Combat or All Ranged Combat.

 

I could buy a 5 point level and get +1 with all knives, but not all HTH.

 

But I can pay 8 points and get a +1 one to all HTH or I could pay 8 points and get a +1 for all ranged attacks.  In this case I pay 8 and designate it +1 HTH. 

 

If I was short of points and my PC had bought some martial arts maneuvers that I called Commando Training, I could pay 5 points and say +1 with Commando Martial Arts. But that would mean the skill would only be available in a situation I was using my Commando fighting style. Paying the 8 points gives me a +1 in any hand to hand situation, be it knives, bare hands or a beer bottle.

 

The +1 with Firearms is the same.  Firearms is not all ranged weapons, instead it is a Large Group of Ranged Weapons.  Or a 5 point CSL. 

 

As for the example characters and creature not being built using the rules in the book, they are.  And you have hit on what I call Heroes greatest issue.  Once you understand what is going on, it is simple.  But it’s process is completely different than traditional class/level RPG’s.

 

Pick a creature/NPC in the book and point out what is on the character sheet that you cannot build or find and we can break it down so you see the process of exactly what was done.  It will only tale a few items you will see it is a case of:

                             not seeing the forest because of all the trees.

 

 

One of the reasons Hero Is perfect for MHI is that you will be able to create anything you can dream up, instead of being limited to the creatures and powers already built into the system.

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The two statements are incorrect.  

 

My Statement  might have been slightly exaggerated but wasn't incorrect:

 

Page 54: Wargs have The Teamwork Skill 12-   ?

Pages 256 - 298, most of the monsters have the Resistant Advantage which isn't explained in the book at all. 

Page 269 - Gargoyles (and a few other critters) have the power of Do not bleed, no hit locations, no stun.  Where are those powers described and how are they built?

Page 276 - How were the telescopic eyestocks of the Lindwyrm built?

Page 291 - Why is the vampires ability to drink blood counted as an RKA?

 

Don't get me wrong, I agree the system is awesome, but my premise that the book appears to be written  with the assumption that players have a familiarity with the HERO system is the most generous explanation I can give it.

 

You've probably noticed that I've been very active asking questions on the forum, precisely because I have needed people to break it down for me.  But let's not ignore the warts, just because overall the system is really friggin cool.  I personally would love to see some adendum to clarify things

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My Statement  might have been slightly exaggerated but wasn't incorrect:

 

I am utterly gobsmacked.   

You are correct, the items you listed are not there.  I went through the list and the example items are actually not there. 

 

So first off, I apologize.   I assumed (yes assumed) you were just not finding them like with the combat skill levels. 

 

Second off, I looked up each item in MHI and with the exception of some parts of the Lyndworm eyes, they are not there.

 

 

Page 54: Wargs have The Teamwork Skill 12-   ?

Pages 256 - 298, most of the monsters have the Resistant Advantage which isn't explained in the book at all. 

Page 269 - Gargoyles (and a few other critters) have the power of Do not bleed, no hit locations, no stun.  Where are those powers described and how are they built?

Page 276 - How were the telescopic eyestocks of the Lindwyrm built?

Page 291 - Why is the vampires ability to drink blood counted as an RKA?

 

After looking in MHI, checked Champions Complete and all the items were in CC.  So I thought back and ask myself, “why would they be in the core 6E and CC but not in MHI.  Perhaps the used different base book.  Back in 2009 Hero Games put out a stripped down rulebook called The Hero System Basic Rulebook (which I will refer to as the BR) and with one exception, it is missing the exact same information. 

Page 54: Wargs have The Teamwork Skill 12-  ?

            In all books except BR and now MHI.

 

Pages 256 - 298, most of the monsters have the Resistant Advantage which isn't explained in the book at all.

            In all the rulebooks except the BR and now MHI

 

Page 269 - Gargoyles (and a few other critters) have the power of Do not bleed, no hit locations, no stun.  Where are those powers described and how are they built?

            These are the Automation powers, not in the BR.

 

Page 276 - How were the telescopic eyestocks of the Lindwyrm built?

            The eyestalks are built using the enhanced senses starting on page 118.

Nightvision is a straight buy costing 5 points and is on page 119 upper right column.

Eyestalks: Increased Arc Of Perception (360Degrees) is located on page 120 lower left column.

Eyestalks: Telescopic (+6 versus Range Modifier) is also on page 120, but the upper right column.

 

Page 291 - Why is the vampires ability to drink blood counted as an RKA?

This one is not for any specific reason, they just decided to use a 1D6 RKA to model the bite.   I suppose they could have used a Drain or something else.  But this was probably personal style of the writer.

 But after a close look and comparing things, my guess is that they used the Basic Rulebook as the foundation for MHI and not CC or 6E. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I agree the system is awesome, but my premise that the book appears to be written  with the assumption that players have a familiarity with the HERO system is the most generous explanation I can give it.

 

I don’t think it was the assumption of being familiar with Hero.  I think it was an assumption that the BR included some things it doesn’t.

 

You've probably noticed that I've been very active asking questions on the forum, precisely because I have needed people to break it down for me.  But let's not ignore the warts, just because overall the system is really friggin cool.  I personally would love to see some adendum to clarify things

 

I noticed, but never worry about too many questions.  Hero thrives on questions. 

 

When the BR was released this was discussed a lot IIRC.  I will see if I can find it, but I am pretty sure there was a thread or a document that listed the differences between 6E and the BR.

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Well, thanks for the background, but that actually makes me more frustrated.  

 

If there was already a review of the source material that found the errors that wasn't included in the MHI book, that's just plain wrong.

 

I'm not saying I expect perfection, but if a fan base takes the time to provide this kind of support and feedback, then Mr. Long should show them some respect and honor that feedback. 

 

Especially when taking on such a rabidly devout fan base as the MHI readers. (I count myself as part of this demographic).

 

**End Rant**

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Teamwork:

More of a Superheroic Skill, actually. In Heroic games the effect might be too extreme.

Effect: Allows "Coordinated Attacks". Every Character participating in one must hold a phase to attack at the same time. When they trigger it they all make thier TW Roll. Those that make it get the +3 "Multiple Attacker" Bonus (if the target lacks proper Defense Maneuver). They also add thier Stun past defenses for purpose of checking for "is Target stunned?".

Those that miss thier roll still attack, but recieve no bonus and thier attacsk are counted totally seperate. Also if something of the coordinated attack makes the those "late" attacks impossible (target knocked out of HTH-Range for example), the attack fails.

 

Gargoyles:

Aside from Takes no Stun those are just what it says on the tin. They disable certain rules (like Bleeding at below 0 HP) for Characters, without any drawback.

Takes no Stun also does what it says on the Tin, but also has serious effects on Defenses: Free Defenses is cut to 1/3 (from 2 to 1) and all further defenses cost Tripple (this is ignored for Endurance Calculations). If the 45 Point version is used, the Character also looses Abilties everytime he takes body damage (not with the 60 point Version).

 

 

Re: Weapon Skills:

There are at least the Autofire Skills. Besides those and Weapon Familiarties Hero never had much use for Weapon Skills. Everything "Weapon skill" that is being build is usually build using Powers and Naked/Idependent Advantages.

Aumsing you even need more stuff after Martial Arts, the Free Maneuvers and everything doable with Penalty Skill Levels/Combat Skill Levels.

 

 

P.S.: I wrote a sort of "Power Guide" for people who are new or try to get a grasp for Sheets without having the (full) rules yet. It might be worth a look for you:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/85482-power-guide/

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I think that person who started this topic pointed a good thing.

 

Book was not made well from that point of view. If people buy book that says "- Can be used as standalone. No need for other Hero System books." It is false information. I think that people who are new to system, won't necessarily know what for example +1 HTH and +1 Firearms mean in this setting.

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I think that person who started this topic pointed a good thing.

 

Book was not made well from that point of view. If people buy book that says "- Can be used as standalone. No need for other Hero System books." It is false information. 

 

What they should have said is "Can be used to play most of the game, but don't worry, we're sure you won't mind not understanding everything once you try to get a good grasp on the mechanics. BUT if you're interested we have these other books....."

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Page 38 is RIFE with un-explained stuff:

 

1. Abomination - What is the effect of Reduced Penetreation (-1/4) limitation.  Also, why is making it Two Handed a limitation?

2. Memory Readin - Why is retrocognition only a limitation, when thee book says its supposed to add 20 points to the power?  Isn't Skin contact the same as No Range? Why is this worth an extra 1/2 limitation?

3. What's the point in dumping more points into Fast Draw, from the description on 98, it seems like it's kind off a support action that allows guns to be redied and clips replaced faster, but doesn't require a roll check.  

4. Why is weaponsmith only 1 point? In the book they say it's 3 points to base it off a characteristic, 2 points to give it a flat 11- roll.  Where does it say anything about 1 point for an 8-?

 

While I'm  at it:

Page 244 -

1. What the heck is a Damage Shield (Lord Machado's Acidic Secretions power).  What's the difference between an inherent power and a persistent power?

2. I don't see any info on "Resurrection" is that an advantage or a separate power?

3. in lord machado's skills, he has a +1 Overall, +1 what?  (Same thing with Koriniha +2 Overall what?) (Same thing with Martin Hood)

 

Page 248 - Can someone explain Martin's Shadow Form: Affects physical world (+2) for 25 STR?

 

Page 254 - Why isn't Susan Shacklefords "Create Vambire" a require's skin contact instead of no range, she's got to be sucking a person dry...

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2) Retrocognition is a limited version of Clairsentience. Usable only to see the past.

 

No Range usually indicates the same hex or reach.

 

3) Fast Draw can be used to reduce the ready time of a weapon from a half-phase to a zero-phase action. It can also get you the jump on someone.

 

4) A 1-point skill is a Familiarity. You can't use Skill levels to boost a familiarity.

 

1) Damage Shield is an advantage for a damaging attack that allows it to take effect when you are hit, doing damage to your attacker.

 

2) Resurrection is based on Healing.

 

3) +1 Overall is saying "+1 Overall Skill Level".

 

I assume the Shadow Form is a form of Desolidification, which inherently can't affect the real world without the "Affects Physical World" advantage.

 

Refer to the "No Range" explanation above.

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Page 38:

1. Reduced penetration makes the power less usefull agaisnt defenses. If I remember right you split the attack into two equal dicepools, roll each, apply full defenses agaisnt each but add the damage after defenses togehter (for figuring out if the target was stunend and wound tracking). Alternatively just doubling the defenses might work too.

 

Two handed means you need two hands to use that weapon to full effect. So you cannot use a shield or dual wield the weapon or otherwise use only one hand without penalty. You can always choose to use more or less hands then is required, but that affects STR minimum:

One handed weapons used with two hands decreases STR minumum by 3.

If you one hand wield a weapon wich requries 1.5 Hands, STR minimum increaes by 2 or you get -1 OCV (for weapons not adding damage from STR, like Guns)

If you one hand wield a two handed weapon, STR minimum increaes by 3 or you get -2 OCV (for weapons not adding damage from STR)

 

2. When you add Retorcognition you can look in the past. But you still can look into the Present. If you add "Retrocog only", you can never look into places in the present, only place in the past or future (respectively).

No range means it counts as HTH-Attack, if it normalyl would count as Ranged attack. And HTH attacks do not require skin contact - a sword is about as good against a naked person as agaisnt someone wearing a fullbody catsuit with no armor protection.

Requires Skin contact is means that it would work a lot better againt the naked person and not at all against the one in catsuite. (you propably need some very good aimed attack to hit a vulnerable hit location).

 

3. Fast Draw does not need a roll to ready your weapon fast. It does require a Roll to change Clips fast.

Also in case that two held action collide, Fast Draw can be used instead of DEX to resolve the question of "who acts first?"

It's also being used in some "Showdown" resolution approaches. Usually Fast Draw get's some minor bonus (so someone with Fast Draw is slightly better then one with just a high DEX but without the skill)

 

4. Weaponsmith is a special class of Skill, called "limited Categories skill" (other skills like this are Forgery, Gamling, Navigation and Survival)

Thier price Structure is: 2 Points for a Characteristics roll and access to one Category*. 1 CP for any extra Category, 2 CP for every +1 to the roll with All Categories you bought.

To be able to make 3 different kinds of weapons (say Muscle Powered HTH, Muscle Powered Ranged and Firearms), one needs:

2 Points for Characteristics level roll and one Category. 2 Points for the other two Categories.

 

*Basically you get one category for free.

 

The GM can waive the need to buy Categories (you just buy Weaponsmith as 3 point Skill and get all cateogires) or expand it to otehr skills (like Computer Programming being categorised by Operatign Systems. Or species specific Technology), if he thinks it fits the campaign.

 

 

Page 244:

1. Damage Shield is a special case of Area of Effect. Most often used to simulate damaging auras. Anyone who hits the user in unarmed HTH or is hit by the user in unarmed HTH takes the effects. It applies to targets being grabbed or grabbing the user once per Phase. It affects Entangles used on the user. Attacks made with Stretching (including weapon Reach) still suffer the effects of Damage shields It affects attackers if the attack is blocked. It does not offer any defense (other then make this a bad person to attack in melee).

Melee Weapons (improvised or otherwise) take the damage instead of the weapon user. Unbreakable Foci are affected normally (wich means usually not at all, because they are immune to damage).

If a attack is Melee range but should not be subject to damage shields (i.e. indestructible arm), it should take "limited Range (HTH-reach)".

It was ocasionally applied to weapons (wielding a flamesword Warhamemr Power weapon, a lightsaber) to simulate those weapons "damaging other weapons it touches" (since blocking applies the damage to teh attacker).

 

2. Resurrection is an adder applied to the Healing or Regeneration Powers. There should be at least on condition to cancel outthe resurrection (a special form of burrial or a specific damage dealing damage).

 

3. +1 Overall means "overall Skill Levels". These are 12 Point Skill that can work as either a CSL or a SKill Level, but only one of those. The also may apply to certain other Roll (like Contact avalibility), at GM option.

 

Page 248:

Sounds like he has Desolidification. Characters with Desolidifciation are unable to affect the Physical World and are in turn able to pass through obstacles and cannot be affected (except for at least one Special Effect, Mental Powers and some Flashes and everythign build with "Affected Desoldified").

The one except is a very expensive Advantage called "Affects Solid World (+2)" wich allows a Character to use that ability even when Desolidifed. In this case he can use up to 25 STR while he is Desolid. He cannot use this STR to wield weapons - unless they are build with "Affects Desolid" too - but otherwise can do anything one can do with that much STR while still being protected by Desolid.

 

Page 254:

The same problem as above. In order to suck bloood, they apparently need a unprotected neck. Even a Dress or other clothing that Covers the Neck would prevent them from doing so - they have fangs, but not that long ones.

 

 

Re. Skin Contact Required:

Some people use Attack vs Alternate Defense (NDD; Skin Contact Required) isntead to model this. It's a no-cost thing for Power working against Power Defense, Flash Defense or similary "rare" defenses already, but for most others it is an advantage.

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