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Greywind

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I have to say that Iris and Harry Wells urging Barry to find a better way than killing Grodd -- because his sense of moral responsibility is what makes him a hero -- was to me a refreshing change from the ruthlessness of recent "superhero" movies. I know such a stand is not fashionable now, and reasonable people can make reasonable  arguments why killing is sometimes necessary... but those speeches echoed the comics I grew up with, when superheroes represented ideals to strive for.

Too bad Harry never talked to Oliver Queen.

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Dear Wally: I'm sorry, but any woman who turns off Casablanca, especially in the middle of that speech, has just got to go. You know I'm right. Sincerely, BDH.

 

Apart from that an enjoyable episode, as long as you don't think about the plot holes too much. (Which is generally how I feel about the Arrowverse overall.) I was a touch disappointed that Barry didn't take the bullets out of Joe's gun before he got it raised, but oh well. And I agree that a couple hundred gorillas with melee weapons aren't going to give the National Guard much of a workout, but we all know Conventional Forces Are Useless in most superhero worlds.

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Dear Wally: I'm sorry, but any woman who turns off Casablanca, especially in the middle of that speech, has just got to go. You know I'm right. Sincerely, BDH.

 

Apart from that an enjoyable episode, as long as you don't think about the plot holes too much. (Which is generally how I feel about the Arrowverse overall.) I was a touch disappointed that Barry didn't take the bullets out of Joe's gun before he got it raised, but oh well. And I agree that a couple hundred gorillas with melee weapons aren't going to give the National Guard much of a workout, but we all know Conventional Forces Are Useless in most superhero worlds.

 

Kind of hard not to. After all, Grodd is in the details.

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Dear Wally: I'm sorry, but any woman who turns off Casablanca, especially in the middle of that speech, has just got to go. You know I'm right. Sincerely, BDH.

 

In fairness, it can be hard to follow Casablanca without a knowledge of World War II in general and the German occupation of France in particular.  I'm thinking Jesse's Earth didn't have a World War II, so the story would have been hard to follow for her.

 

Hope that helps.

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In fairness, it can be hard to follow Casablanca without a knowledge of World War II in general and the German occupation of France in particular.  I'm thinking Jesse's Earth didn't have a World War II, so the story would have been hard to follow for her.

 

Hope that helps.

 

"Is this about the War of the Americas?" Clearly, she has no idea what WWII is, at least not by that name.

 

But compared to the other idiot-plot issues in this episode, that's small potatoes. (And even compared to Wally's own moment of not-getting-it, when she suggests they could not watch the movie and do something else. Hint, hint. Like, make the beast with two backs. A fine idea, in my opinion.)

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 (And even compared to Wally's own moment of not-getting-it, when she suggests they could not watch the movie and do something else. Hint, hint. Like, make the beast with two backs. A fine idea, in my opinion.)

 

Wally "got" it. Then she sent him for burgers when he started to move in for the make out / fade to black session.

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In the last episode, it seemed like Wally and Savatar were expressing some pretty similar beefs against Barry, plus Savatar apologized to Iris for having to kill her. Wally getting sucked into the Speed Force at the end of the episode, along with Savatar's comments that he made himself (to Barry, when asked if Barry made him) and then later to Wally that he made Wally kind of firmed up my suspicions.

 

OTOH, that all could have been one big red herring. I'm not sure if the CW writers are really capable of setting up that elaborate of a misdirect, though I suppose they could have done it on accident.

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And I agree that a couple hundred gorillas with melee weapons aren't going to give the National Guard much of a workout, but we all know Conventional Forces Are Useless in most superhero worlds.

 

This is the same problem of disbelief suspension I have with the Planet of the Apes movies. OK, the apes are stronger/more athletic than us just like in the real world, and now they're as smart and can talk or otherwise engage in complex communication. Are they bulletproof? Can they duplicate themselves endlessly like Multiple Man? Because a few thousand intelligent apes at most aren't going to be a grave existential threat to 7 billion human beings with full use of current military technology. Or even the 350 million or so who survive the viral pandemic in the PotA movies.

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This is the same problem of disbelief suspension I have with the Planet of the Apes movies. OK, the apes are stronger/more athletic than us just like in the real world, and now they're as smart and can talk or otherwise engage in complex communication. Are they bulletproof? Can they duplicate themselves endlessly like Multiple Man? Because a few thousand intelligent apes at most aren't going to be a grave existential threat to 7 billion human beings with full use of current military technology. Or even the 350 million or so who survive the viral pandemic in the PotA movies.

 

Okay, I hope folks will forgive a brief thread derailment (and if we want to debate the issue more, I'll create a separate thread for that); but I've given some thought to this issue as relating to the two recent movies. First, the introductory montage for Dawn of the Planet of the Apes specifies that the "Simian 'Flu" was 90% lethal in humans. Over the four years of the pandemic, I could see that translating to a comparable reduction in human population, down to about 700 million globally. Then as Gary Oldman's character remarked in his speech, there was four years of war as the survivors fought among themselves for scarce resources. There's also a strong implication that the great majority of modern civilized humans have become dependent on technology for their survival. IMHO those factors could easily add up to another 90% or greater mortality of the survivors, reducing the human population to 70 million or less globally. Given that the survivors colony in San Francisco looked to total less than a thousand (and probably gathered from over a wider area), I don't think those numbers are unreasonable. And without infrastructure and manufacturing that number is likely to drop further in the near future.

 

As another character in DotPotA observed, the apes "don't need lights, heat, power, none of it. That's what makes them stronger." The main advantage of humans over apes -- intelligence -- is gone. The other advantage, guns, is no longer definitive, since the apes inherited the arsenal of the humans from San Francisco. As we saw in Rise of the Planet of the Apes, the apes can often easily move and fight in three dimensions, unlike most humans. They know their home terrain better than the humans do. If an ape closes to hand-to-hand range with a human, the human is screwed. Finally, the apes are firmly under the leadership of a brilliant tactician. Just the bridge fight in RotPotA, where the apes were essentially unarmed against police and soldiers, demonstrated what a difference that can make.

 

I'm not saying an ape victory is a foregone conclusion, or that the fight won't be desperate. But IMO they have a fighting chance; and given their natural advantages, if they win I could believe them becoming the ascendant species on this planet as humans continue to decline.

 

(Given a pandemic, Grodd or Solovar could lead their people to dominance as well. Just to bring the thread back on topic.) :whistle:

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OK, the apes are stronger/more athletic than us just like in the real world, and now they're as smart and can talk or otherwise engage in complex communication. Are they bulletproof?

 

 

Well that, and they aren't very old, don't live as long, and have less time to learn how to do... everything, that we're already used to and up to speed on.  Its a really dumb concept that only worked once as a sort of What if? Sci Fi thing.

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Okay, I hope folks will forgive a brief thread derailment (and if we want to debate the issue more, I'll create a separate thread for that); but I've given some thought to this issue as relating to the two recent movies. First, the introductory montage for Dawn of the Planet of the Apes specifies that the "Simian 'Flu" was 90% lethal in humans. Over the four years of the pandemic, I could see that translating to a comparable reduction in human population, down to about 700 million globally. Then as Gary Oldman's character remarked in his speech, there was four years of war as the survivors fought among themselves for scarce resources. There's also a strong implication that the great majority of modern civilized humans have become dependent on technology for their survival. IMHO those factors could easily add up to another 90% or greater mortality of the survivors, reducing the human population to 70 million or less globally. Given that the survivors colony in San Francisco looked to total less than a thousand (and probably gathered from over a wider area), I don't think those numbers are unreasonable. And without infrastructure and manufacturing that number is likely to drop further in the near future.

 

As another character in DotPotA observed, the apes "don't need lights, heat, power, none of it. That's what makes them stronger." The main advantage of humans over apes -- intelligence -- is gone. The other advantage, guns, is no longer definitive, since the apes inherited the arsenal of the humans from San Francisco. As we saw in Rise of the Planet of the Apes, the apes can often easily move and fight in three dimensions, unlike most humans. They know their home terrain better than the humans do. If an ape closes to hand-to-hand range with a human, the human is screwed. Finally, the apes are firmly under the leadership of a brilliant tactician. Just the bridge fight in RotPotA, where the apes were essentially unarmed against police and soldiers, demonstrated what a difference that can make.

 

I'm not saying an ape victory is a foregone conclusion, or that the fight won't be desperate. But IMO they have a fighting chance; and given their natural advantages, if they win I could believe them becoming the ascendant species on this planet as humans continue to decline.

 

(Given a pandemic, Grodd or Solovar could lead their people to dominance as well. Just to bring the thread back on topic.) :whistle:

 

The original Planet of the Apes movie never made any sense as far as the Astronauts go.  They are traveling to a star system 300 light years from Earth, and their travel time will be 2000 years.  How do they know their is an Earth-like world there?  Why not go to Alpha Centauri which at one tenth the speed of light would only take forty years?  Who would volunteer or fund a mission that will never return to Earth for thousands of years?

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In the last episode, it seemed like Wally and Savatar were expressing some pretty similar beefs against Barry, plus Savatar apologized to Iris for having to kill her. Wally getting sucked into the Speed Force at the end of the episode, along with Savatar's comments that he made himself (to Barry, when asked if Barry made him) and then later to Wally that he made Wally kind of firmed up my suspicions.

 

OTOH, that all could have been one big red herring. I'm not sure if the CW writers are really capable of setting up that elaborate of a misdirect, though I suppose they could have done it on accident.

 

Savitar also scared Jesse off by telling her he had plans for her. That could be another finger pointed towards Wally.

 

Or... H.R. Most of what's been said so far could apply to him as well and he told HR that the 'coward' is the only one to survive... perhaps by becoming Savitar? Yet another kick at the old 'Wells is the traitor, whether he knows it or not, can'?

 

Or 'Disposable Season Extra is Disposable' - it's Julian after all and that's why the speed force trapped Savitar can communicate with him, possess him, etc.

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