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Not a good time for the Catholic church to be claiming the moral high ground.

 

Cardinal George Pell, 77, hides from media as he makes his way into a Sydney hospital for knee surgery days after being dropped from Pope Francis' inner circle

 

There is a suppression order in Australia on the rest of the story. This is to ensure that any trials that might be involved are fair and justice is done.

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2 hours ago, Michael Hopcroft said:

A Michigan priest is under fire over the homily he gave at the funeral of a teenager who had committed suicide, in which he explicitly condemned suicide and implicitly condemned the young man he was burying

 

Suicide is, of course, a "mortal sin" in Catholicism, and is also condemned by every other Christian denomination. What made this homily different, and what alarmed the family and mourners, is the priest's brutal honesty at a time when families seek comfort and closure. Family and mourners alike were distressed. Now the family is seeking to meet the local Archbishop to have the priest dismissed.

Afaik the "Suicide Bad" thing was a later addition made. Because the poor thought: If I get my reward in the afterlife, why not rush for it?

 

And of a priest at a funeral? Simply unacceptable. How did he need an explanation for that?

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3 hours ago, Christopher said:

Afaik the "Suicide Bad" thing was a later addition made. Because the poor thought: If I get my reward in the afterlife, why not rush for it?

 

And of a priest at a funeral? Simply unacceptable. How did he need an explanation for that?

It could have been even worse. Fifty years ago the priest might have outright told the mourners that the kid was in Hell and probably gotten away with it, not to mention the family being unable to have their son buried in "hallowed ground" because of the cause of his death.

 

My grandmother killed herself when I was 14 or 15 (don't remember exactly) rather than cope with a diagnosis of breast cancer. I don't recall the cause of her death being mentioned at her funeral. I didn't find out about it myself until several years later.

 

Generally speaking, adding to someone's suffering at a difficult time isn't exactly the holiest thing to do.

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The Catholic Church in Michigan did pretty much pull back that priest's authorization to act independently;  he's gonna be very closely supervised.  Pretty much back under a mentor.  And no speaking at funerals.  This story's actually gotten international play.

 

And ya know...the kid probably wouldn't have gotten a church service, or been allowed to be buried on holy ground, not all that long ago.  But that would've been handled *privately* as arrangements were being made.  And it still could've been managed relatively gently...sorry, sir, ma'am, but it's not allowed by Church doctrine.  What the priest did here is IMO, MUCH more emotionally disruptive in the moment.

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7 hours ago, Michael Hopcroft said:

It could have been even worse. Fifty years ago the priest might have outright told the mourners that the kid was in Hell and probably gotten away with it, 

 

No; that would fall under heresy.  So far as I know, of all the Christian religions, only an assortment of Baptists think you die and go to the afterlife immediately. 

 

The predominant Christian belief is that life has two primary components: dust and the breath of life from God.  When you die, the breath has stopped, and you completely cease to exist. This is a mercy, as you will not experience the passage of time until Judgement Day.  Essentially, you will blink.  When your eyes open, you will have been risen to be judged. 

 

It goes on and on, but for our purposes here, a Catholic priest would never announce that someone was definitely in Heaven or Hell; it's against his religion. 

 

Unfortunately, using any social gathering as an opportunity to spread The Word is not.   While it shouldn't be unfortunate, there are those who have an opportunity to speak of uplifting things, but for personal reasons decide it's more important to stress the negative. Sadly, this tendency seems most common in Catholics and Baptists. Not all of them, of course,  but it's where I see it the most. 

 

It's bizarre to me, because I am reasonably certain that following the sacrements of a religion because you are scared not to doesn't actually meet the requirements of accepting those sacrements as the way to salvation.  But I'm not the best scholar here, either. 

 

To be completely honest, I can't really accept that, under the circumstances, the family didn't see it coming when they opted for a Catholic service. 

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1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

No; that would fall under heresy.  So far as I know, of all the Christian religions, only an assortment of Baptists think you die and go to the afterlife immediately. 

 

The predominant Christian belief is that life has two primary components: dust and the breath of life from God.  When you die, the breath has stopped, and you completely cease to exist. This is a mercy, as you will not experience the passage of time until Judgement Day.  Essentially, you will blink.  When your eyes open, you will have been risen to be judged. 

 

It goes on and on, but for our purposes here, a Catholic priest would never announce that someone was definitely in Heaven or Hell; it's against his religion. 

 

 

That is official Christian dogma, known to anyone with scholarly familiarity. It isn't the belief of the vast majority of lay Christians, who assume souls receive their reward or punishment immediately upon death. And clergy have spun that reward and punishment approach to get their flocks to conform for centuries.

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That's the point I was making: a Catholic priest (appologies to any Catholics: I can't remember if "priest" is capitalized in that usage) would not have told them the deceased was already in Hell.  There is great deal of scholarship prior to being ordained. 

 

 

On another topic:

 

By "lay Christian," do you mean actual Christian believers, or the "well, I'm western, and westerners are Christians, so I must be Christian"  type person? 

 

Or, if I may paraphrase Good Omens (a tremendously funny book, if you haven't read it) the "when I'm completely ignoring religion, it is specifically a Christian religion I am ignoring!"  tpye folks.

 

(mostly for my own curiosity) 

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2 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

So far as I know, of all the Christian religions, only an assortment of Baptists think you die and go to the afterlife immediately. 

 

From the Catholic catechism:

 

1022: Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification or immediately, -- or immediate and everlasting damnation.

 

So, die, go to your judgment immediately, reunite with your body and Christ in the final judgment. No merciful nap time for Catholics.

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1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said:

That's the point I was making: a Catholic priest (appologies to any Catholics: I can't remember if "priest" is capitalized in that usage) would not have told them the deceased was already in Hell.  There is great deal of scholarship prior to being ordained. 

 

 

On another topic:

 

By "lay Christian," do you mean actual Christian believers, or the "well, I'm western, and westerners are Christians, so I must be Christian"  type person? 

 

Or, if I may paraphrase Good Omens (a tremendously funny book, if you haven't read it) the "when I'm completely ignoring religion, it is specifically a Christian religion I am ignoring!"  tpye folks.

 

(mostly for my own curiosity) 

 

lay CHristian, he is probably saying non-scholarly Christians, or something similar, I think. My interpretation anyway.

 

Note: As a Chrisitan, myself, I don't have an opinion on that.  Either way, from the spirit's perspective it would be "immediate".  So, it doesn't make an issue for me.   Being raised SOuthern Baptist, it seemed murky and inconsistent on the exacts (perhaps depending on the teacher) for what it is worth. (at least from my childhood perspective)

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1 hour ago, Pattern Ghost said:

 

From the Catholic catechism:

 

 

 

 

So, die, go to your judgment immediately, reunite with your body and Christ in the final judgment. No merciful nap time for Catholics.

 

Yep. Not Biblical in source, but theology evolves over time. It was probably easier for the uneducated common folk to grasp, too.

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Quote

 First, because everything naturally loves itself, the result being that everything naturally keeps itself in being, and resists corruptions so far as it can. Wherefore suicide is contrary to the inclination of nature, and to charity whereby every man should love himself.

 

That's from the Aquinas referenced by Bazza.

 

This, to me, actually supports suicide *in some situations.*  My mother, for example, didn't commit suicide...but did choose to stop all treatments for her advanced lung cancer, after a couple rounds weren't very productive.  She was 82.  Is that a form of suicide, in not taking any and all measures to prolong life?  Is life itself the Ultimate Value?  (I've never thought so.)

And here...your apparently healthy and happy son commits suicide.  SOMETHING got missed.  Something really terrible.  Ranting about sin is grossly, totally inappropriate and insensitive.  The What is pointless;  the Why is what matters.  Berating the act ignores the motivation that caused it.

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On 12/17/2018 at 4:38 PM, Cancer said:

Pretty sure that is a normal Shadowrun scenario. Possibly a low detail one-off adventure. Setting up the religious group/civil war would be a major step in worldbuilding, however.

 

On 12/17/2018 at 4:53 PM, Michael Hopcroft said:

It could have been even worse. Fifty years ago the priest might have outright told the mourners that the kid was in Hell and probably gotten away with it, not to mention the family being unable to have their son buried in "hallowed ground" because of the cause of his death. 

  

My grandmother killed herself when I was 14 or 15 (don't remember exactly) rather than cope with a diagnosis of breast cancer. I don't recall the cause of her death being mentioned at her funeral. I didn't find out about it myself until several years later.

 

Generally speaking, adding to someone's suffering at a difficult time isn't exactly the holiest thing to do.

It is really wierd that so many Christians did not get the core of the bible:
"Do not be a *bleep*hole."

 

13 hours ago, Pattern Ghost said:

So, die, go to your judgment immediately, reunite with your body and Christ in the final judgment. No merciful nap time for Catholics. 

Well, "there ain't no rest for the wicked", or so they say.

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1 hour ago, Christopher said:

 

 

It is really wierd that so many Christians did not get the core of the bible:
"Do not be a *bleep*hole."

 

I read the thing cover to cover and don't recall that commandment.

 

Of course, I'm not Christian.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says people who sleep well shouldn't get to use candles.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Starlord said:

The core of the bible for Christians is the New Testament.  The core of Jesus's message is love me and love each other.  It's not complicated.

 

To avoid going off topic, lets agree to disagree about how complicated it is.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes that love always seems to be a complicated topic

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3 hours ago, Christopher said:

Pretty sure that is a normal Shadowrun scenario. Possibly a low detail one-off adventure. Setting up the religious group/civil war would be a major step in worldbuilding, however.

 

Yes, you're almost certainly correct.  And yes, it certainly would take you "on the road" out of the urban area the campaign is normally set in.  You could probably steal the set-up from any number of sources, though.

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