Not enough rDEF?

[Vondy]

In this case, yes.  DCs are allowed to range high, and not solely in the hands of mages.  Not sure I have access to those books, would you care to summarize some of those abilities?

 

Chris.

 

Most are just excuses to drop defensive powers onto heroic characters without a focus.

 

For instance, lets take Damage Reduction 50% Resistant PD and ED

 

You might give it to a fighter and call it "Tough." If you want it to be more iffy, make it dependent on a CON roll. Or you might define it as "Cinematic Safety" and only have it apply when a character takes suitable risks, or facings suitably dangerous opponents (dragons, demons, giants, arch-lich-guy, etc). You could also have it be non-resistant and only PD and define it as "can take a punch," also with a CON roll if need be.

 

Or, Resistant PD and Resistant ED [to whatever amount].

 

You could define it as "combat luck" with its relevant limitations. On the other hand, you define the resistant defenses as "A Mere Scratch" and say "let's first body through" so that, even if it would otherwise negate the damage, a character still gets cinematic, but relatively minor, bloody cuts ala Conan.

 

You could also tailor Deadly Blow to work against cinematic (the non-human) opponents. Ergo "Monster Slayer" Deadly Blow +2d6 vs. Monsters.

 

One tactics I've used is to give characters "cinematic safety" and "monster slayer" and then leave their attacks and defenses at the range for "low-fantasy" I described above. It lets me have them operate on a more manageable level and still deal with the monsters when they appear (which is less frequently in my games and might not work for you).

[Old Man]

Fwiw I found Darien the Bold pg. 512 in Fifth rev. as a samplr fantasy character.

 

Relevant stats are as follows:

STR 18 MA usable with blades Offensive Strike +2DC with MA wf: blades and he has +2 csl w/H2H

 

So if he uses a Bastard Sword (1 1/2D6 HKA STR Min 13 pg. 481) that's starts at 5DC add 1DC for STR Min add 3DC for offensive Strike (6DC total /2 to add to killing attack) & add 1DC for using csls for damage which yields a 10DC killing attack.

Sorry to be obtuse, but how does the +2 DC Offensive Strike add 6 DC (halved)?

[NuSoardGraphite]

Tanking would include more than just Defense.  If I was going to build a character that Tanked, I would not only build him with the max physical defense, and put him in the best armor I could afford, but I would also have him rocking a shield with plenty of CSL's that could be used with the shield and a Martial Art that complimented it's use.

 

That character then would be able to block near any melee attack that came his way.  And the Hero combat system allows for characters to block for others.

 

For my tanking character, I would probably build Talents that allowed him to not only block for others really well, but also to intercept damage (Dive for Cover?) on behalf of others and a way to reduce that damage (50% Physical damage reduction, resistant, Stun Only) as well as Missile Deflection, and the ability to instantly counterattack when he successfully blocked an attack (HKA with Trigger that automatically resets)

[Tasha]

How does a 5d6N bokken come out to fifty active points? What am I missing?

Zero Endurance

[Markdoc]

Not to disagree with Markdoc's analysis or results, but...

 

The game recommends a certain level of defense.  Makes it difficult to reach that.  Attempts to fix that bring about other consequences.  Why?

 

Because the recommendations are based on the commonest use of Hero system (the default setting, if you like) - which is Supers. In Supers, combat is common (or very common) but serious injury or death is rare. That's a 4-colour comics trope. But that trope is not true in all genres, so the recommendation doesn't apply there. Imagine if you were playing a spies and mercenaries game: how would you attempt to beef up defences to cope with modern weapons? Answer: you don't - in a game like that, firefights are dangerous things, and PCs are advised to play cautiously, not try storming forward into heavy automatic weapons fire. When James Bond is surrounded by submachine-gun-toting mooks, he surrenders and works out a cunning plan later: he doesn't pull out his trusty PPK and start gunning them down, confident in his high rDEF.

 

Same with fantasy games. Not all fantasy games will focus on heavily-armoured tanking, and if you want that, there are various ways to do it.

 

As to the raising of rDEF, while maybe not to that extreme, in far too many Fantasy Hero games, DCV is the only practical defense.  With the wild swings from Stun Multiples and Hit locations, it is impossible to have sufficient defenses to tank damage rather than avoid it.  And to me, that is a bad thing.

 

Chris.

 

Actually, there's lots of things that you can do. DCV's important of course, and there are lots of ways to get it, not just DEX.

But characters who want to be Tanks can look at OCV - and Block - as an effective tool, as well as damage-reducing powers*. Nu Soard has a list of suggestions, and we could easily come up with more, if you wanted: you could start a "How to Tank in FH" thread.

 

In the end, there's no "right way" to do your game. It's more a question of "How do you want your game to work and feel?" and then build to that. 

I want to stress that: I wasn't suggesting that you shouldn't increase armour DEF. I was merely pointing out what the consequence would be: if that's the style of play you want, go for it!

 

cheers, Mark

 

*Note some GMs don't like "fighters with powers", but honestly, I can't see much practical difference between damage reduction described as "My iron will allows me to shrug off the stun" and damage reduction defined as "My magical power allows me to shrug off the stun".

[mhd]

Standing there and taking -- if you aren't an invulnerable comic book hero -- is a fools move.

Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from foolery.

If I'm walking around in a late-/post-medieval plate armor, I friggin' want to just stand there and take it, at least until the opposing weaponry gets equally heavy. Not having to care about each glancing blow or puny weapon allows me to focus more on offense and carrying a really big stick (which I should need to affect an equally dressed enemy). I'd consider the need for further evasive actions and equipment (shields) to be a flaw. Unless we're actively trying to avoid mortal combat and it's more a sports-like scenario (similar to early Greek or Japanese engagements).

 

This isn't really (all) about realism-nuttery, often quite the opposite. Ideally I'd like several "investment strategies" for a character in combat. The playing field for this would often be along the offense/defense/armor/damage axis. Now, for gaming purposes I find it neat if you have to make choices and can't just be great at everything. This can be done by point buy, but IMHO this only works out if everyone is building combat monsters. Otherwise, it's better if the general rule systems has this. And yes, this means that armor probably has encumbrance a bit beyond reality (I used to think quite differently in the past)...

 

In the end, I like it when statistically it works out for the same, for equal investments. Your lightly armored fencer won't hit as hard, but more often. He himself will be hit less often, but it will hurt more. A loincloth-clad barbarian made the same choice on the armor/defense axis, but chose differently on the offense/damage one (big axe). The extremes probably won't have much fun, though (i.e. the glass cannon and the turtle).

 

Now that assumes a level playing field, and I think HERO is a bit biased here. Damage/offense is favored over defense/armor. This generally reduces the whiff factor and speeds up play. But I'd really like to see an "you want this playing style, pick these options and don't allow that" table. I would guess that a few of the entries would just read "don't make your life to hard, just use GURPS/D&D"...

[Ninja-Bear]

Sorry to be obtuse, but how does the +2 DC Offensive Strike add 6 DC (halved)?

I should hace been clearer in my typing. He has an offensive strike (4d6) +2d6 extra DC which now makes the manuever 6d6 normal dice. However, when you apply this to a killing attack, it takes 2DC of normal dice to bump up 1DC of killing (fred pg. 406). Hence the 6d6/2=3d6.

[Markdoc]

Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from foolery.

If I'm walking around in a late-/post-medieval plate armor, I friggin' want to just stand there and take it, at least until the opposing weaponry gets equally heavy. Not having to care about each glancing blow or puny weapon allows me to focus more on offense and carrying a really big stick (which I should need to affect an equally dressed enemy). I'd consider the need for further evasive actions and equipment (shields) to be a flaw. Unless we're actively trying to avoid mortal combat and it's more a sports-like scenario (similar to early Greek or Japanese engagements).

 

If you have invested some/many points in damage mitigation, regular old 8 rDEF plate will let you stand there and take it. It'll stop the BOD from the average hit by a heavy Longbow, and 94% of the BOD from medium longbows. A character with an ordinary longsword is going to have trouble scratching you, unless he's very skilled.

 

The problem of course is the STUN, and as noted, a decent PD (not superhuman, just 6-8 points) will let you soak a lot of damage. But equally obviously, PCs are not bothered by the attacks that do no significant harm - they're worried about the 1-in-108 chance of a full damage roll to the face with a big axe . That's why the discussion has focused on people who are dishing out 10-12 DC killing attacks.

 

cheers, Mark

[Old Man]

I should hace been clearer in my typing. He has an offensive strike (4d6) +2d6 extra DC which now makes the manuever 6d6 normal dice. However, when you apply this to a killing attack, it takes 2DC of normal dice to bump up 1DC of killing (fred pg. 406). Hence the 6d6/2=3d6.

 

I don't think that's how it works.

[mhd]

If you have invested some/many points in damage mitigation, regular old 8 rDEF plate will let you stand there and take it. It'll stop the BOD from the average hit by a heavy Longbow, and 94% of the BOD from medium longbows. A character with an ordinary longsword is going to have trouble scratching you, unless he's very skilled.

That part of my post wasn't even complaining about the status quo, more about the assumption that I still have to duck & weave if I'm wearing full plate.

 

Having said that, it's still way easier to become "very skilled" than it is investing points in "damage mitigation".

 

By the way, is there a way to build the opposite of an increased STUNx? This time for armor? I was thinking about introducing a split PD/rPD for armor, but declaring rigid armor to just decrease the multiplied would be a simpler solution. Just use the same cost modifier as +STUNx for weaponry?

[Christougher]

Ninja-Bear, on 09 Apr 2014 - 05:20 AM, said:

I should hace been clearer in my typing. He has an offensive strike (4d6) +2d6 extra DC which now makes the manuever 6d6 normal dice. However, when you apply this to a killing attack, it takes 2DC of normal dice to bump up 1DC of killing (fred pg. 406). Hence the 6d6/2=3d6.

 

I don't think that's how it works.

 

It's almost correct.  The Offensive Strike is +4 DCs, plus 2 more.   It takes two DCs from a maneuver to increase Killing damage by 1 DC.  So it's +3 DCs, not +3d6.

 

Chris.

[Christougher]

By the way, is there a way to build the opposite of an increased STUNx? This time for armor? I was thinking about introducing a split PD/rPD for armor, but declaring rigid armor to just decrease the multiplied would be a simpler solution. Just use the same cost modifier as +STUNx for weaponry?

 

I really like that idea.  Off the top of my head:

 

Reduced Stun Multiple: This -1/2 limitation (same cost as increased Stun Multiple) decreases the Stun Damage inflicted by a Killing Attack, reducing the Stun Multiplier by 1, down to a minimum of 1x.

 

Naked Advantage: Reduced Stun Multiple (-1/2) on 60 AP Killing Attack: 20 Points.  You have to pay points to inflict the limitation on something else.  Should possibly require some other advantages to balance out.  Limitations on this power at least include OIF, reducing it to 13 Real Points.

 

Chris.

[Chris Goodwin]

Average defenses are usually suggested in the range of 1.5x to 2.5x the average DCs, with resistant defense about half that.

 

In a Fantasy game in the 50-60 AP / 10-12 DC range, that means the lowest expected rDEF is 7, average is 11, and max is 15.

 

I don't know if Fantasy Hero says anything different, but the base rulebooks list DEF 8 for full plate armor.

 

Those high end values aren't intended to be hard caps that everyone has to reach.  If you're looking at those numbers as typical, meaning everyone is hitting them, I can see where your difficulty is.

 

Both 6E1 and 5ER give Active Point ranges for Standard and High Powered Heroic (15-50 and 20-60 Active Points, respectively), so I can see where those high end numbers come from -- but the low ends should come into play. The average values should be around 33 for Standard and 40 for High Powered.  I'd start by bringing the PCs attacks down to that range; 6-8 DC is a lot better for the DEF values you're likely to see, between characters' normal PD scores and the armor they're likely wearing.  

 

20 STR characters with melee weapons will top out around 8 DC, and if they're all buying Martial Arts with multiple bonus Damage Classes, or scads of Combat Skill Levels... it's the GM's job to look at that and use the word "NO" if he wishes.  

[Ninja-Bear]

Ninja-Bear, on 09 Apr 2014 - 05:20 AM, said:

 

 

It's almost correct. The Offensive Strike is +4 DCs, plus 2 more. It takes two DCs from a maneuver to increase Killing damage by 1 DC. So it's +3 DCs, not +3d6.

 

Chris.

Whoops thanks for the catch Chris.

[Christougher]

Christougher, on 26 Mar 2014 - 09:55 AM, said:

 

Average defenses are usually suggested in the range of 1.5x to 2.5x the average DCs, with resistant defense about half that.

 

In a Fantasy game in the 50-60 AP / 10-12 DC range, that means the lowest expected rDEF is 7, average is 11, and max is 15.

 

I don't know if Fantasy Hero says anything different, but the base rulebooks list DEF 8 for full plate armor.

Both 6E1 and 5ER give Active Point ranges for Standard and High Powered Heroic (15-50 and 20-60 Active Points, respectively), so I can see where those high end numbers come from -- but the low ends should come into play. The average values should be around 33 for Standard and 40 for High Powered.  I'd start by bringing the PCs attacks down to that range; 6-8 DC is a lot better for the DEF values you're likely to see, between characters' normal PD scores and the armor they're likely wearing.  

 

Okay, let's look at that. 8 DCs as the average.  That makes lowest expected defenses 12, with 6 Resistant.  Average is 16 defense, 8 Resistant, and maximum is 20 defense with 10 Resistant.  Again, average means everyone is wearing full plate or the equivalent.

 

Perhaps the better question is, that while I'm asking how to increase defenses, why everyone seems to be suggesting lowering them? 

 

Chris.

[NuSoardGraphite]

 

Christougher, on 26 Mar 2014 - 09:55 AM, said:

 

Average defenses are usually suggested in the range of 1.5x to 2.5x the average DCs, with resistant defense about half that.

 

In a Fantasy game in the 50-60 AP / 10-12 DC range, that means the lowest expected rDEF is 7, average is 11, and max is 15.

 

I don't know if Fantasy Hero says anything different, but the base rulebooks list DEF 8 for full plate armor.

 

 

Okay, let's look at that. 8 DCs as the average.  That makes lowest expected defenses 12, with 6 Resistant.  Average is 16 defense, 8 Resistant, and maximum is 20 defense with 10 Resistant.  Again, average means everyone is wearing full plate or the equivalent.

 

Perhaps the better question is, that while I'm asking how to increase defenses, why everyone seems to be suggesting lowering them? 

 

Chris.

 

I think its because a lot of Fantasy Hero players prefer to play a grittier game, where Defenses fall on the lower end of the spectrum, even if Martial Arts and Combat Skill Levels can boost damage into the 8+ DC range.  I believe in general that this is because they want their combats to be quick and deadly affairs, as oftentimes seen in the movies and fiction.  That is much more difficult to do if you play with Defenses at the higher end of the spectrum.

Since most players simply use the stats of the weapons and armor as depicted in the Fantasy Hero and Martial Arts books, they tend to leave defenses where they are according to the armor and allow the weapon damage to be boosted and thus, end up with deadlier combats.

 

As others have mentioned, if you are trying to balance the attacks and defenses similar to the way they are balanced in a Superheroic game, you will end up with combat scenarios that last longer than many Fantasy Hero players want them to (more akin to high level D&D combat).

 

As for myself, I like to run high-powered fantasy.  My game includes powerful magic, dragons, demons and undead out the wazoo.  However, the game uses the same armor statistics that are available in the Fantasy Hero book.  Most opponents the characters face average about 5rDef and are capable of doing about 6DC (2D6k) damage.  The PCs in the game aren't in danger of being one-shotted from the average opponent, but they can't afford to ignore damage either.  It will eventually build to dangerous levels.  More powerful opponents are capable of dishing out some more serious damage (average around 10DCs) and the players have to be very careful when facing these.  There are ways of increasing defense (Talents, Magic etc) but even magic cannot make one invulnerable permanently.  My game also supports hit-locations, Critical Hits, Impairing and Disabling rules.  After gaining some experience, I find the PC's do a lot of one-shot kills on minor opponents, which is exactly the dynamic I want.  And occasionally, one of the PC's will get seriously hurt, to the point the characters have to work fast to save the character from death.  I find this adds to the drama of the game. (doesn't happen often, but it does happen).  If I allowed higher defenses far beyond the armor stats in the FH book, this would be much harder to do.

 

Look at the battles in Troy, 300 and The Lord of the Rings films.  Usually the heroes can wade through a group of minor, lesser-skilled opponents, bringing each one low with only 1 or 2 well-placed shots and usually only sustain minor wounds in the process.  Yet, when they go up against a greater foe, they are in danger of dying or taking more grievous wounds.  That's the dynamic I'm going for.

[Chris Goodwin]

Perhaps the better question is, that while I'm asking how to increase defenses, why everyone seems to be suggesting lowering them?

Because for a reasonably typical Fantasy Hero game, characters with huge amounts of defense are out of genre.  The Fantasy Hero genre book assumes a heavily armored character has 8 PD and 8 rPD, and that most characters will take some BODY damage on a regular basis.  Note that that Standard Heroic game runs from 15-60 Active Points, which means melee weapons around DC 2-8 (average 5).  "Lowest expected DEF" here is probably 2 Resistant, 4 total, while highest would be 8 Resistant, 16 total, but those numbers will float depending on character concepts.  

 

You might be trying for a different feel in your game, and if that's the case then that's fine.  As the GM, you can change the DEF values of the given types of armor if the ones given don't work for you. 

 

Some good page references:  FH (6ed) pp. 277-278, 390-393; 6E2 pp. 282-286; 6E1 pp. 34-35, 48.

[JamesG]

Reduced Stun Multiple: This -1/2 limitation (same cost as increased Stun Multiple) ...

 

Increased Stun Multiple is +1/4 not +1/2.

[Markdoc]

Okay, let's look at that. 8 DCs as the average.  That makes lowest expected defenses 12, with 6 Resistant.  Average is 16 defense, 8 Resistant, and maximum is 20 defense with 10 Resistant.  Again, average means everyone is wearing full plate or the equivalent.

 

Perhaps the better question is, that while I'm asking how to increase defenses, why everyone seems to be suggesting lowering them? 

 

Chris.

 

Because those values are for a “typical” supers game, where after a hard-fought battle, the PCs pick themselves up, dust off their minor bruises and scrapes and haul their unconscious (but mostly uninjured) enemies off to the police station so that they can have their day in court.

 

If that’s how you envisage your fantasy game playing, then fine: those are the values you want. But if you want a more “typical” fantasy game where a battle involves a significant chance of injury or even (gasp!) death, then those are not the values you want: you want a higher ratio of attacks to defences.

 

That’s why you are getting a difference in opinion.

 

Cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

That part of my post wasn't even complaining about the status quo, more about the assumption that I still have to duck & weave if I'm wearing full plate.

 

Having said that, it's still way easier to become "very skilled" than it is investing points in "damage mitigation".

 

By the way, is there a way to build the opposite of an increased STUNx? This time for armor? I was thinking about introducing a split PD/rPD for armor, but declaring rigid armor to just decrease the multiplied would be a simpler solution. Just use the same cost modifier as +STUNx for weaponry?

 

There's two things here.

 

First thing - I guess I wasn't clear with my response: the only time you'd need to duck and weave is if a big strong guy is trying to open your tin skin with a halberd or similar – that was the meaning behind my comment about the focus on heavy weapons. To me, that seems fair enough, but if you want an even tankier tank who can just take that, you can still build it.

 

It’s true that it’s easier/cheaper to be “skilled” than “hard to hurt”, but skilled makes it easier to hit. It’s less efficient at making you hit harder: the fact that you need 2x3 point skill levels to add 1 DC and the fact that weapons (in most games) are reduced in damage potential by both STR min and “no more than double base damage” means that “hard to hurt” is still a totally viable strategy (especially when combined with “free” armour). Such a character may get hit a lot … but will usually weather that with little or no damage.

 

Of course, “hard to hurt” can also overlap with skilled: a high DCV bought with the “only in armour” limitation can be defined as “the attack glances off my armour with no significant effect”.

 

In D&D – a game not known for flexible special effects – my Paladin has Evasion: the ability to avoid any damage if you make a reflex save (where allowed). It’s typically defined as “dodging the attack”, but with the GM’s permission, I’ve just defined it as “neutralize the effect by pure faith”.  You could easily do the same with DCV in Hero system.

 

The second thing: making a decreased STUNx is going to be hard because it’s not applied to your own powers, but to the powers being used against you. I would NOT allow it as a GM.

 

But we do have two tools which allow something like this: damage reduction and damage negation. Damage reduction is a classic “tough guy” power for Fantasy tanks, and even 25% can be very helpful. 50% stun only rDamage reduction (requires a CON roll) is not only “in genre” but actually quite cost effective.

 

I’ve thought quite a lot about how armour actually works. Flexible armour reduces impact (to some extent) and “cutting/piercing” (quite a lot). Rigid armour reduces impact (greatly) and “cutting/piercing” (also greatly). What that means in practice is that in flexible armour you feel the effect of blows that have minimal effect when you are in rigid armour.

 

You could, if you wanted, define flexible armour as damage reduction and rigid armour as damage negation. Damage reduction is a bit of a blunt tool (25/50/75%) but you could further customize it by setting a cap as a custom limitation, which also brings down the price (in other words, chain mail will halve the damage from an arrow (6 DC), but not a giant hurled-boulder (12 DC).

 

This is more complex than simple rDEF, but would probably give a more realistic feel, and you could “mix’n’match” to define armours – for example, define full plate as 4DC damage reduction, while mixed plate and chain was 2DC+50%damage reduction (off the top of my head numbers: you’d need to play with this to get the right level).

 

Cheers, Mark

[mhd]

DCV from armor reminds me a bit about the old "Passive Defense" that GURPS used...

 

In this instance, there's even a justification for it, but in general I'm not too keen on blurring the lines between what the individual parts of combat mean. No problem at all in a rather abstract system like D&D, where "hit points" isn't really all about physical trauma and "not getting hit" and "not getting hit as hard" is mixed in armor class. A recent version of that even had "miss damage"...

But in HERO I do have a distinction between those elements, so unless it really fits the narrative, I'm trying to avoid mixing DCV and PD needlessly. This is one problem I have with Combat Luck...

 

Reduction/negation are a bit more vague, so your approach to armor sounds interesting. In a short bout of simulationism, I thought about giving armor some "DC" limits that determine whether an attack is normal or killing (in additon to reducing said damage). This could potentially vary between attack types, so a sword could do x DC slashing or x-1 DC piercing, and armor might have a "lethal threshold of" e.g. 9(sl.)/6(pi.). "Armor piercing" weapons would have a higher DC just for the threshold, and you could convert CSL on a 1:1 basis for this, too (looking for gaps).

 

On the backburner if I ever decide to turn HERO into GÛRPSMaster, but I think my players would probably be better served if I just have better guidelines for the attack options (max PSLs for hit locations or when Deadly Blow/Weaponmaster would be appropriate) and some pre-gen defensive Powers.

 

On the other hand, if I ever decide to use your "no separate KA type" idea, house rules that add or subtract DCs become much more attractive.

[Ninja-Bear]

Has anyone else noticed that there are few similar threads on the forum asking this question?

[Vondy]

Has anyone else noticed that there are few similar threads on the forum asking this question?

 

I did notice!. This is a frequent question with new herophiles. As powerful a tool as hero is, its flexibility comes with a certain amount of native ambiguity built in that can only be overcome with experience and subsequent tweaking. This is one of the things I get frustrated with our resident bean-counters and number-crunchers over. As mathematically precise as hero is, you can't actually reduce it to a set of algorithms and forumulae.  Running Hero isn't science. Its art. And art isn't taught -- its learned.

[Aversill]

My game has a 55 AP cap, generally speaking.  You can't use armor as it is in the book.  It won't work.  My AP defense cap is (regular defenses+resistant defenses+Damage Negation+Damage Reduction) maxes at 55, so long as none of those are super provisional (only against fire, for instance).  That being said, most of my players have gone the DCV route, which is smart in FH since there aren't as many AoEs generally.

 

In terms of armor, stack or don't stack, it wouldn't really matter to me so long as it fit into the above equation (realizing that Combat Luck has a different AP then what you're seeing and hoaky limitations that were applied post facto to make it cost what it does).  The real trick is that you're going to have to adjust mass for real armor if you make full plate 12 or 15 rPD.  Otherwise, everyone will have to be 25 strength to wear it (I might be wrong about that, but it's close).

 

I also require players to buy Armor Proficiency (2 points per type, light, chain based, full, or 1 point for a specific).

 

I would encourage you to favor players at high AP.  Getting hit with a 6d6 killing attack (if anyone manages to bump a KA up that high) is likely to chop a character with 15 rPD right in half. 

[Aversill]

I might also mention that the game gives itself over to bean counters.  It's not a serious mystery as to why.  I learned to divide fractions in my head playing this game and before Hero Builder, I couldn't have made a character without a calculator.  The people who I know who play Champions most often refer to it as Math Club, the Role Playing Game.  That doesn't make it a bad game system, but I don't think its valid to be surprised by people being overwhelmed by the amount of math that has to go into any play session.

 

I have a 1d6 HKA with AP and Indirect (+1/4) at 0 End.  Quick.  How much strength do I need over the weapon's minimum of 11 before it's a 1 1/2d6 HKA?!  That's not an art, that's an impediment to the game getting new players.