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7th Edition thoughts

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1. Will there ever be a 7th edition of Hero System?

2. If there is, should the system move towards simplification and less complexity, or towards extending the modularity introduced in 6th?

3. Are there any glaring "legacy" mechanics from previous editions crying out for revamping and revision?

4. Should the product be less "generic" and more oriented towards specific settings?

5. Should there be more characteristics? Fewer? About the same number? What about rules for optional stats?

6. Should complications be revamped, or even removed/made optional? Should power limitations and complications be merged, at least in some instances?

7. Should costing be simplified? Should costing for advantages and limitations be made more granular(i.e., +/- 0.1)?

 

 

That's enough for now. :)

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My thoughts for 7ed.

1) Instead of fraction for Advantages and Limitations, use the decimal equalent. For example, .5 instead of 1/2. (I bet it is fraction convertion which gives Hero the bad rep of 'hard math'.)

2) Their should never be mandatory limitations on a power (I'm looking at you, Hand-to-hand Attack).

3) I kinda like the 'Complete' system. I wouldn't mind buying multiple books to have 'all the rules', as long as the books are cheep, and the missing rule in question is not needed for that setting. (For example, mental classes, which fits Star Hero better than Champions)

4) Hero Games MUST comment to publishing something once a month. I don't cair if it is a digital only format of a character taking only two pages to fill, at least it is something which tells us their alive. But that is not here or their.

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1. Will there ever be a 7th edition of Hero System?

2. If there is, should the system move towards simplification and less complexity, or towards extending the modularity introduced in 6th?

3. Are there any glaring "legacy" mechanics from previous editions crying out for revamping and revision?

4. Should the product be less "generic" and more oriented towards specific settings?

5. Should there be more characteristics? Fewer? About the same number? What about rules for optional stats?

6. Should complications be revamped, or even removed/made optional? Should power limitations and complications be merged, at least in some instances?

7. Should costing be simplified? Should costing for advantages and limitations be made more granular(i.e., +/- 0.1)?

 

1: Probably not for quite a while.

 

2.The system should move toward simplicity. Not simplification that actually makes things more complex (which IS possible to do with the system). The system has a very simple mechanic that should be applied toward everything (attacker value - Defender Value+11 vs Roll on 3d6. Roll d6's of effect - Defense = what happens to target.

 

3. Healing needs to be looked at. IMHO it should be cumulative by default. Levels need to become less expensive. Heroic Action Points need to be revised to be easier to use. Also they need to become something similar to FATE points or Savage Worlds Bennies. Where players get plenty of the points during play and get to spend them during play to do cool things. I believe that there should be some link between HAPs and Complications. Where evoking a Complication gets some Hero Points.

 

4. The product should stay generic.

 

5. With figured characteristics becoming separate from Primaries it's very obvious to me that we could lose some original primaries and not notice. (ie Get Rid of Dex and hook Dex functions into OCV and DCV)

 

6. Complications are a very positive feature of the system. They give players reasons to give their PC's weaknesses. Those weaknesses Don't need to have a combat consequence, just one that makes the PC choose things that aren't for the character's benefit (ie Overconfidence will make a PC rush into things without thinking and planning). Limitations are fine

 

7. IMHO the system needs to remove as much of the Multiplication and Division as possible from the system. This will make it far easier for new players to learn how to build PC's. NO we don't need more granularity on Limitations. There's no real reason for that.

 

8. We need to eliminate the idea that GM's need to punish PC's for taking Complications. YES they need to appear in games, but we need to NOT beat the players over the head with them. The idea that if someone has a 8- roll Complication needs to arrive in 1 in 4 games and a 14- complication needs to appear in 3 games out of 4 is really the wrong way to think about them.

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No increased simplicity, please. There are too many simple systems as it is, and one of HERO's hallmarks has been the granularity that allows for a staggering number of possibilities with many gradations.

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1. Will there ever be a 7th edition of Hero System?

2. If there is, should the system move towards simplification and less complexity, or towards extending the modularity introduced in 6th?

3. Are there any glaring "legacy" mechanics from previous editions crying out for revamping and revision?

4. Should the product be less "generic" and more oriented towards specific settings?

5. Should there be more characteristics? Fewer? About the same number? What about rules for optional stats?

6. Should complications be revamped, or even removed/made optional? Should power limitations and complications be merged, at least in some instances?

7. Should costing be simplified? Should costing for advantages and limitations be made more granular(i.e., +/- 0.1)?

 

 

That's enough for now. :)

 

My opinions of course...

 

1. Ask Jason. :)

 

2. I would likely change some things, but there comes a point when changing the rules too much risks the whole Fuzion debacle all over again. I say we could tidy some things up and make 

 

3. Honestly, the rules are mostly fine where they are at. What really needs to change are the priorities that Hero puts into book. While the grognards love the toolkit aspect of Hero, ultimately marketing it as a toolkit system failed to attract a substantial customer base beyond the die-hard Hero fan. I could have a whole discussion about why it failed but I think it can be boiled down to the fact that most Hero gamers are a little older than the average and most of us don't have time to develop every aspect of our campaign worlds. On the other hand, the new generation of gamer is trending towards rules lite systems or one that catch their imaginations. Hero reads like a bunch of textbooks. They don't inspire a reader's imagination but instead require the reader to have a clear vision of what they want and the gumption to see a project through to the end. A neophyte to the Hero rules spends way too much time wondering how to build the most basic of spells for their players and NPCs instead of picking up a book and playing the game. That focus needs to change so that the consumer can pick up a product and run a few games with the published material. To top things off, Hero needs a fanzine. I know that Digital Hero failed but ongoing, tactile support for their products is essential. I would love to see a Dungeon and Dragon magazine equivalent for Hero. One fanzine to rule them all would work too. The biggest problem I see is that Hero simply cannot afford slick graphics and high production costs. Those actually mean something to the consumer.

 

4. There should remain a Core rulebook that extracts the best parts of the rules and Setting specific books that refer to it. In the future, I would like to see a Core rulebook (Hero 7th Edition) that is slimmed down to the <x> Complete level and then get rid of the generic genre books. Champions would be the setting. Turakian Age (or Ambrethel would be my preference) instead of Fantasy Hero. Each Setting book should have a basic How to Play section (essentially detailing how things like skills and combat work but not how to build things) but refer to the Core book for the full rules. Powers and equipment should be included in the individual book. The Genre by Genre breakdown could be expanded into a whole sourcebook for general advice on how to run a specific genre without using one of the published settings. Within each published setting should be more support material. I know Hero is limited by a budget, so consider this a wishlist; Monster/Enemy books, gazetteer books to expand the detail of important parts of the setting, expanded powers and adventures. 

 

5. I think there should be a discussion, probably in a sidebar, about how to add new characteristics and how to balance the starting character points versus the new stats.

 

6. In the Core rulebook aspect I mentioned, Complications should be optional with a couple of variants presented; extra points for crippling (default current system), HAP economy, pick <number> of Complications just for flavor, etc. For the specific setting books, Hero should establish a sort of standard wherein they either choose to use them or not. That's mostly for consistency so a person picking up Ambrethel would see the same basic format as somebody picking up Terran Empire or Danger International (which I think should make a comeback). I expect that the default system now will be carried over, but as long as there is room for alternate methods I'll just keep doing what I am doing.

 

7. Costing is not hard as written. Perhaps the decimal system mentioned above would help some people. Changing from the 0.25 incremental Advantages and Limitations standard would necessitate a LOT of extra work to balance the new system. On the other hand, there are some things that could use some granularity. Using the Damage Reduction table from the APG instead of the current standard one should be considered.

 

 

Sorry I diverged from the rules-centric discussion, but I believe that any discussion of a future for Hero has to deal with changing mindsets and priorities far more than tweaking a few rules.

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The question becomes is Hero Games going to continue to try to appeal to the Grognards or are they going to take the best parts of the system and turn it into something that will appeal to more people? We could make Hero 7 Into another boring iteration of the same stuff that has the same problems with scaling and intimidates the hell out of new people. Or we could embrace a little extra change and see if we can make something that is super robust and easy to build characters with. I think we can have our cake (very robust, flexable system) and eat it too (simple to build characters, easy for beginners to understand).

 

Besides WHAT WAS so bad about Fuzion anyways? Besides killing attacks being wonky, the power toolbox missing about a third of the options of 4e. Most people know that Killing attacks are still fracked up. We have stats that highly illusionary make people think there's lots of granularity, when you look at rolls you realize that's just not true (ie most and stats and skills run from +1 - +5)

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The question becomes is Hero Games going to continue to try to appeal to the Grognards or are they going to take the best parts of the system and turn it into something that will appeal to more people? We could make Hero 7 Into another boring iteration of the same stuff that has the same problems with scaling and intimidates the hell out of new people. Or we could embrace a little extra change and see if we can make something that is super robust and easy to build characters with. I think we can have our cake (very robust, flexable system) and eat it too (simple to build characters, easy for beginners to understand).

 

Besides WHAT WAS so bad about Fuzion anyways? Besides killing attacks being wonky, the power toolbox missing about a third of the options of 4e. Most people know that Killing attacks are still fracked up. We have stats that highly illusionary make people think there's lots of granularity, when you look at rolls you realize that's just not true (ie most and stats and skills run from +1 - +5)

 

Personally I am hoping for some sort of change of ideology more than system. But I mentioned that already. :)

 

As to what was so bad about Fuzion?  Nothing.  What was bad is that Bruce Harlick and company published it as an apparent replacement for Hero System 5th Edition.  There was a lot of talk about 5th Edition, but until Steve Long and DoJ made that a reality, there was a sense that Hero was running a shell game. In the end, it was far less about Fuzion as a rules system as it was about the image that the, then current, Hero games portrayed to its consumers. 

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One bad thing about Fuzion is that it came out before things like the OGL or CC were popular. I really want a crunchy universal game that's not legally encumbered (or ruled by an arbitrary entity).

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I'd like to see

1) Mind Scan abolished and replaced with an enhanced sense

2) Mental Powers rewritten to include Emotion Control separate from Mind Control

3) Mind Link and Telepathy folded into one power

Changes I wouldn't like to see

1) any changes to the basic OCV+ 11-DCV mechanic

2) any changes to the 5pt per DC mechanic

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For the fuzion discussion above ive played it a bit and if you are a normal mortal with normal stats you can forget to think of having any chance of succeedibg at a roll. At least my impression back then.

 

For hero an easier calculation method would be very nice(although balancibg that is queTionsble if it is as good as now then). Maybe a light version with ranks insteaf of cp cost.

 

 

Else mostly what others said 1 general setting independent rulebook that only has rules themselves, 1 power creation book. And then setting books with fixated values in there and premade powers. That way newbies arent scared put of the options

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1. Will there ever be a 7th edition of Hero System?

I certainly hope so.

 

 

2. If there is, should the system move towards simplification and less complexity,

Yes

 

 

or towards extending the modularity introduced in 6th?

Huh?

 

 

3. Are there any glaring "legacy" mechanics from previous editions crying out for revamping and revision?

Yes

 

 

4. Should the product be less "generic" and more oriented towards specific settings?

I appreciate Hero for being the go-anywhere do-anything system.

 

 

5. Should there be more characteristics? Fewer? About the same number? What about rules for optional stats?

Fewer. Core rulebook can mention the possibility of optional extra Characteristics but specifics can go in an Advanced Players book.

 

 

6. Should complications be revamped,

Yes

 

 

or even removed/made optional? Should power limitations and complications be merged, at least in some instances?

Some instances, perhaps.

 

 

7. Should costing be simplified? Should costing for advantages and limitations be made more granular(i.e., +/- 0.1)?

More granular sounds more complicated.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

 

How many palindromedaries do I need?

 

That's enough for now. :)

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For the fuzion discussion above ive played it a bit and if you are a normal mortal with normal stats you can forget to think of having any chance of succeedibg at a roll. At least my impression back then.

 

For hero an easier calculation method would be very nice(although balancibg that is queTionsble if it is as good as now then). Maybe a light version with ranks insteaf of cp cost.

 

Which is interesting as Fuzion and Hero are actually using the same system. Fuzion just flips stuff to be roll high. Fuzion stats are Hero stats /5  (ie Hero 20 is Fuzion 4, aka 13- or a +4 on 3d6 vs 10+Diffculty) all the same thing.

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1: Probably not for quite a while.

2.The system should move toward simplicity. Not simplification that actually makes things more complex (which IS possible to do with the system). The system has a very simple mechanic that should be applied toward everything (attacker value - Defender Value+11 vs Roll on 3d6. Roll d6's of effect - Defense = what happens to target.

 

3. Healing needs to be looked at. IMHO it should be cumulative by default. Levels need to become less expensive. Heroic Action Points need to be revised to be easier to use. Also they need to become something similar to FATE points or Savage Worlds Bennies. Where players get plenty of the points during play and get to spend them during play to do cool things. I believe that there should be some link between HAPs and Complications. Where evoking a Complication gets some Hero Points.

 

4. The product should stay generic.

 

5. With figured characteristics becoming separate from Primaries it's very obvious to me that we could lose some original primaries and not notice. (ie Get Rid of Dex and hook Dex functions into OCV and DCV)

 

6. Complications are a very positive feature of the system. They give players reasons to give their PC's weaknesses. Those weaknesses Don't need to have a combat consequence, just one that makes the PC choose things that aren't for the character's benefit (ie Overconfidence will make a PC rush into things without thinking and planning). Limitations are fine

 

7. IMHO the system needs to remove as much of the Multiplication and Division as possible from the system. This will make it far easier for new players to learn how to build PC's. NO we don't need more granularity on Limitations. There's no real reason for that.

 

8. We need to eliminate the idea that GM's need to punish PC's for taking Complications. YES they need to appear in games, but we need to NOT beat the players over the head with them. The idea that if someone has a 8- roll Complication needs to arrive in 1 in 4 games and a 14- complication needs to appear in 3 games out of 4 is really the wrong way to think about them.

 

1) I believe Champions Complete is designed to be "The Last Edition of the Game."

 

2) This can be solved by including a section on not overcomplicating character builds.

 

3) Healing needs to be made more expensive. Levels need to be more expensive and their ability to deal additional damage removed. Heroic Action Points need to be removed from the game. I hate heroic action points with undying passion. They reward incompetence and poor social and combat choices. There shouldn't be a reward for something that the player paid for in chargen and is meant to be a disadvantage. Any time you do that, people will game the system. I've played in games with Heroic Action Points. In order to drive the story, in ANY reasonable fashion, one of two things happens. The villain never shows up until the end of the story because multiple uses of heroic action points defeat him, or every combat devolves into running the heroes out of Heroic Action Points.

 

4) Agreed

 

5) Disagree here as well. Mishmashing the characteristics loses the feel of the game.

 

6) I liked it better when they were disadvantages. Disadvantages is a strong word. It means that these are things that the hero will have to overcome. Complications is a whiny word. It means that things will be "complicated" but generally underwhelming. Heroes have disadvantages. Telenovelas have complications. Disadvantages represent challenges. Complications represent things that arise from surgery.

 

7) Are you kidding? This is a feature! I really mean this. This actually teaches people how to use math! This is a great thing!

 

8) Punish is too strong a word. But I think that you and I have very different ideas about what "challenging" means.

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@tasha i know and that is why i was so surprised back then. Did a campaign where we started as hinanborn nephilim in fuzion We had mortal stats and the template. All looked well until the first skillrolls and to hit rolls. With mortal stats we had WAY below 20% chance of succeeding on ANY roll. In the process we then gave up and switched systems (original plan was in the beginning to have mortal adversaries and then after 1-2 adventures immortal ones. But like i said succeeding at a skill roll or hitting in combat was almost impossible with pure mortal stats in that pne fuzion edition at least ( was about 5years ago)

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You had to be missing something in the system. The probabilities are totally the same between Fuzion and Hero. One difference is that many GMs in Hero will tell players to Roll and then based on how well they "make" the roll decide what happens. Fuzion has a target number (kind of like D20) which gives a straight up target number (and penalty or bonus to the roll).

We played Fuzion Champions New Millenium for a long time. One was a regular Supers Campaign and the other was a Hero High School game.

Dunno what you mean by "Pure Mortal Stats" but if you kept the PC's to 4's in their stats (The equivalent of 20's in Hero), you would have made the PC's too weak to hit the Published Villains. This would be like making a Champions Character keep to 20's and 4's in their CV's vs Published villains who have CV 8 and better. It sounds like a campaign limits issue and not a system issue

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You had to be missing something in the system. The probabilities are totally the same between Fuzion and Hero.

I don't have a published version at hand, but the PDF had a pretty strange difficulty value table. It used the same values for both Interlock and HERO resolution, which doesn't really make sense as one has 10 as an average, while the other has that as a maximum...

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One thing about chraxteristics for a 7 th.

Only values that have an effect ruleswise would be nice. Currently we increase str,... By single points each but for usage they are divided through 5 always

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