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While it is true that no game will be perfectly balanced. Using that as an excuse or statement to keep a blatantly unbalanced feature in a system built around the core concept of pay for what you get is foolish in my opinion.

 

I have seen that as the argument against change to many times and see it as ridiculous. If the system advertises that you pay for the mechanic not the special effect and you can make the character you want then it is and was right to eliminate situations were one concept (only another word for fx) is being rewarded or penalized.

I love the Hero System because it was the first system to let me play my favorite concept without people feeling it is too powerful. Suddenly my Dimension manipulating mage is okay, because while his concept was awesome, there was clear mechanical definitions and the other players could accept that.

The player who loved the magic using fighter could suddenly fit in as well without people wondering if the class combination was op.

 

That is the primary thing that brings in and keeps new players to HERO. They can build any concept they want with their points and those points combined with the suggested range tables envisage the characters to balance together. Yes there is GM oversight especially for stop powers and caution powers. But strength, dexterity and Con are neither.

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Blatantly unbalanced is an awfully strong indictment. I would argue that after six revisions to the system, there is nothing in the game that is significantly unbalanced, much less blatantly so. IMO, any minor imbalances that remain, and all reasonable solutions to them, fall within the realm of GM tweaking and house rules.

 

Most of the cries of imbalance I see aren't actually problems with the system at all, but with the manner in which it is used, and as I've said before, that is a social/personality problem, not a system problem. By insisting that it is a system problem, the burden of a solution falls onto the wrong shoulders (the system), and you never end up actually solving anything because the real problem, the min-maxing players, will always find ways to exploit a complex system and make your job as GM harder. Always.

 

So not only do I disagree that the issues you raise constitute dire balance problems, I strongly disagree that the solution to those so-called problems are the responsibility of the rules system in any case. I realize this is all just a matter of perspective, but I think it is important that such accusations of system imbalance not go unchallenged in the court of public opinion. There is another way to look at and address your concerns, one which doesn't require Hero Games to give birth to yet another version of a system that has, IMO, already had too many dubious/unnecessary changes foisted upon it in its 30+ year history.

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Most of the cries of imbalance I see aren't actually problems with the system at all, but with the manner in which it is used, and as I've said before, that is a social/personality problem, not a system problem. By insisting that it is a system problem, the burden of a solution falls onto the wrong shoulders (the system), and you never end up actually solving anything because the real problem, the min-maxing players, will always find ways to exploit a complex system and make your job as GM harder. Always.

 

In my years on the forum the things I've seen most often complained about as unbalanced were Figured Characteristics and Killing Attacks.  Both are mathematically unbalanced.  This isn't an opinion, it has been proved time and time again, you can look it up.  One of the two was finally fixed in the most recent edition.

What things are you hearing "cries of imbalance" about?

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In my years on the forum the things I've seen most often complained about as unbalanced were Figured Characteristics and Killing Attacks.  Both are mathematically unbalanced.  This isn't an opinion, it has been proved time and time again, you can look it up.  One of the two was finally fixed in the most recent edition.

 

 

 

And the other was greatly mitigated.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I assert this palindromedary to be mathematically balanced.

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I don't even want to know about the rugose post-modern philosophical and/or mathematical twists that would manifest themselves if professionals would try to properly define "balance" here -- I would assume the best result would be a theorem disproving the mere possibility (plus some French guys sneering at that) ;)

 

In games this generally means that we're operating on a spectrum, i.e. it's usually about being "balanced enough", for certain purposes. And I'd say that within HERO, we've got a big sub-spectrum within that range. On one side, you've probably got silver age superheroes. No optional rules that complicate things, maybe not even killing damage. Most powers constructed without pedantic bit-twiddling. Combats that happen rather spontaneously and are big slug-fests, without too much tactical prep work (esp. regarding gadgeteers, summoners and other spoilsports).

 

On the other end, I guess we'd be talking about fantasy (or very wibbly-wobbly space opera). Equipment but also special powers, and the latter possibly within a framework as presented by the various magical systems in FH and other supplements, where it's not a totally tractable point built but a guesstimating "sorcery level 12", "advanced necromancy" deal.

 

I'm running something like this at the moment, and yet I'm still thankful for the fiddly details: Even if it's not a big part about balancing the character's point values, it's still a help in balancing the game itself. I still get an estimate of the rough power level by looking at the active points, and the higher those are, the harder it is for the wizards (skill modifier).

 

Which is probably all you can want in a game this generic. Actually, in future products I wouldn't mind seeing more of this laissez-faire approach to character point values, although maybe not in the core book itself. Alternate character creation methods would seem neat, like a lifepath system.

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Assuming a player/GM has experience with at least one other RPG, then it seems to me that Champions Complete is as immediately playable as the D&D Player's Handbook, at least for the superhero genre. The MHI book is probably even more immediately playable, if you're into the modern monster-hunting genre.

 

If a player/GM is completely new to the hobby, well, I probably wouldn't recommend the Hero System to a complete novice. Even when Champions first came out--when it was arguably simpler--virtually everyone who picked it up had prior experience with (A)D&D. That experience provided essential context for reading the rules of any new game system. Within that context, the Champions rulebook revealed a masterwork of game design that wasn't terribly difficult to grasp. However, to someone who had never rolled a polyhedral die, the content of that book would surely have seemed like a bizarre engineering document.

 

If you're looking for a Champions Beginner's Set, then I think Champions Complete + Champions Universe is as close as you're going to get. If you're into a genre other than supers (or MHI), then you are simply out of luck. There is apparently no market incentive to take the core rules and wrap it up in an "immediately playable" package, including a setting and starting adventure. The D&D intro boxed set is probably a loss leader for WotC, and only "works" as a product for them because there are so many players who will buy the more profitable books later on.

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I think a Hero for Dummies type book would be a great product, a super basic fun intro with silly pictures and sidebar goofy notes, examples etc.  Just need basic building a character, basic combat, and basic experience spending.  A GMing for Dummies book would be good too, with tips on building scenarios, ideas for running combat smoothly and quickly, how to ignore the rules, when and how to give xps, and so on.

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If you're into a genre other than supers (or MHI), then you are simply out of luck. There is apparently no market incentive to take the core rules and wrap it up in an "immediately playable" package, including a setting and starting adventure. The D&D intro boxed set is probably a loss leader for WotC, and only "works" as a product for them because there are so many players who will buy the more profitable books later on.

Did they cancel the upcoming Fantasy Hero Complete and not tell me?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary considers that unlikely

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Did they cancel the upcoming Fantasy Hero Complete and not tell me?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary considers that unlikely

To be fair, the setting and adventure are going to be in the Bonus Pack, not the main rule book. Of course Hero Games can certainly bundle those together as an option for someone to buy which gives us that "playable out-of-the-box" option.

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It was called Wild Strike

http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/classic/rev_993.phtml

I think a Hero for Dummies type book would be a great product, a super basic fun intro with silly pictures and sidebar goofy notes, examples etc.  Just need basic building a character, basic combat, and basic experience spending.  A GMing for Dummies book would be good too, with tips on building scenarios, ideas for running combat smoothly and quickly, how to ignore the rules, when and how to give xps, and so on.

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Hmmm...   been gone a few days, but it has been an interesting read, since my last comment.   Kind of like starting a discussion about hamburgers and being regaled with replies about types of apples. 

 

No, Hero does not play "out of the box" and no I am not talking about the D&D and PF style beginner boxes. 

 

But staying in the fantasy realm, what I am talking about is having never set eyes on the Hero system and not knowing anyone who has, having the ability to:

 

As a player

1) Buy the book at 12 noon.

2) Skim the chargen rules for an hour.

3) Build a playable character using the checklist by 2pm.

4) Play that character by 2:30pm.

 

As a GM

1) Buy the book at 12 noon.

2) Skim the combat/adventure rules for a couple hours.

3) Skim the included intro adventure and run the game by 3pm.

 

I have witnessed the success of both scenarios multiple times for D&D, Pathfinder and 13th Age.  But not Fantasy Hero.  Why?

 

Here is my opinion.

All RPG's have two parts in a general overview sense.  The mechanical rules and the narrative setting.  But for most fantasy games of the sword swinging type they share the same setting with only cosmetic differences.

 

D&D, PF and 13th Age are all the same game setting'wise. 

Races: The core are Human, Elf, Dwarf, Halfing/Hobbit with a small handful of extra races that allow them to claim to be different.

Classes/Archetypes:  Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, Mage with a few flavor variations that allow them to claim to be different.

And so on.  Whether you are new to RPG's or played int he past you can quickly set up and play the basic game because the setting is already familiar to you via books, video games and a long history of games.  There are few people that have not heard of D&D and most have seen on of the movies whether they considered them good or not.

 

Now enter Hero.  It contains all the rules to create stuff. It contains examples of spells, archetype packages and such.  But it does not contain a small complete set spelled out as a complete ready to play set. 

 

Yes I know that the immediate refrain is that Hero players are looking for the ability to customize and do not want a cookie cutter world. 

I counter that with, NO they want a playable game system that once they understand how to play they can customize.

 

I say that if you really want to get new players into Hero, they need to play first, then get deluged in options.

More times than I can count just reading this has prompted the return of the book to the shelf and the player picking up D&D.

 

Calling The Thunderbolt: The character can call
down a bolt of lightning from the sky. This only
works when the conditions are right for lightning
— during storms, or at least very cloudy weather.
If the target is inside, the bolt must first blast
through the roof or other obstacles, diminishing
its effect considerably.
RKA 2d6, Indirect (Source Point is always in the sky
above the target; +¼) (37 Active Points); OAF (Druid’s
Staff; -1), Extra Time (1 Turn; -1¼), Gestures (-¼), Incantations
(-¼), Increased Endurance Cost (x3 END; -1),
Requires A Magic Roll (-½), Only Works During Storms
(-1).
Total cost: 6 points.
 

The reason has been bolded.   Just seeing all the arcane annotation sends them running.

 

I am assuming that the current Fantasy Complete book is to be like Champions Complete. 

 

1 Introduction

2 Core Concepts

3 CharGen/Point Build System

4 World and Movement

5 Combat

6 Examples.

 

I suggest that the game would really benefit from a few small changes.

Assume the players will start with the standard generic vision of what a fantasy RPG is about.  I'm not here to impress new players with my coolness, I'm here to get new players to try Hero.

After the Core Concepts chapter insert a Fast Play CharGen chapter with four pre-built Archetypes (Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, Mage), four pre-generated Races (Human, Elf, Dwarf, Halfing/Hobbit).  Each race and archetype package is presented with NO ANNOTATION.  Just pay a single cost and get X benefits.  Create a single simple spell system for the Mage and the Cleric, once again without annotation.  And by simple I mean for the player.  The mage can cast one spell a day from his list of spells, easily built as a multipower with one charge.  Do not say that however, instead call the multipower "Spellcasting, one spell a day" as part of their Archetype.  Make all the Spells (slots) the same cost.  After buying the Race and Class, the player will have a few extra points to spend on characteristics, spells and such.  But the big and most important thing is do not show calculations of annotations, just final cost and what it does. 

The same with a short list of weapons, armor and equipment.

 

As a new player I can "roll up" a character and quickly play.  Today.  Now. 

 

For the GM insert a small setting adventure with a small bestiary.  Once again only have the bare required data of what you need to know run the creature/NPC and adventure.

 

Insert Basic CharGEn and The First Adventure into the book, move the full chapter on Hero after the canned adventure.  And in the chapter after the full build rules, reveal the the details of just how everything was built. 

 

1 Introduction

2 Core Concepts

3 Basic CharGen

4 World and Movement

5 Combat

6 The First Adventure

7 CharGen/Point Build System

8 The Basic Characters and Adventure Reveled.

9 Examples.

 

Now the fledgling Hero player/DM has something they can actually use and understand that is also familiar. 

 

Instead of deliberately narrowing prospective customers to experienced gamers with a small sprinkling of beginners.   You open the game to the same range of customers that the big titles have, all by making the first step accessible and playable out of the box

 

Sure I am well aware that the strength of Hero is the ability to customize anything.  But there is a reason that so many people are willing to forgo it to play a more limited system.  At first glace/exposure Hero annotation looks incredibly complicated.   Take D&D 5th, $50 dollars a book.  The DMG give the DM a book full of pre-designed things plus a whopping 22 pages billed as the DM's Workshop where you can design your own stuff.  But it is very very limited on what you can actually do.

 

Champions Complete can allow the GM to do far more that all the 5th Ed books combined at only $40.  I am quite sure Fantasy Hero will also have far far more potential for the creative player and GM then the 3 core 5th books.  But that potential is never realized by the bulk of gamers.

 

Of course this is all opinion and I don't have some special insight to the world.   But I do know that if you spent decades using the same approach to do something and it isn't working, you need to try something different. 

Leading with the full build rules and simply assuming that anyone picking it up will understand is not working. 

Maybe leading with a pre-generated mini-setting with pre-generated though limited character options will give a gamer that is completely new to the system enough of something they can immediately use and generate the interested needed to read the full rules and get creative. 

 

Now I fully understand that I will be considered a heretic by most.  But I really do think that the major stumbling block for Hero has become the inability to see the tree's because the forest is in the way.  I shall continue to support Hero by buying product, but I would really like to see Hero expand and be the game that new players want to buy :thumbup:

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When Champions first appeared, it doesn't seem to have occurred to its writers that players would want (to rely on) a chapter (or book) of pre-built power sets to ease the process of creating superhero characters. They surely felt that the example heroes and villains, combined with players' own imaginations were sufficient. Then again, if you look at the write-up of just about any 1st ed. Champions villain, its lack of complexity (compared with its 5th or 6th edition equivalent) seems almost quaint. And ineffably digestable, by comparison.

 

I agree that the biggest obstacle to the Hero System's acceptance by newcomers is its presentation. But seeing as how just about anyone qualified to write a core Hero System book will inevitably have drunk the Kool-Aid with respect to traditional presentation, I'm not sure where a good "Hero System For Dummies" book would come from.

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What about Wild Strike
do that as a free PDF you have the very basic game to grow from

When Champions first appeared, it doesn't seem to have occurred to its writers that players would want (to rely on) a chapter (or book) of pre-built power sets to ease the process of creating superhero characters. They surely felt that the example heroes and villains, combined with players' own imaginations were sufficient. Then again, if you look at the write-up of just about any 1st ed. Champions villain, its lack of complexity (compared with its 5th or 6th edition equivalent) seems almost quaint. And ineffably digestable, by comparison.

I agree that the biggest obstacle to the Hero System's acceptance by newcomers is its presentation. But seeing as how just about anyone qualified to write a core Hero System book will inevitably have drunk the Kool-Aid with respect to traditional presentation, I'm not sure where a good "Hero System For Dummies" book would come from.

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When Champions first appeared, it doesn't seem to have occurred to its writers that players would want (to rely on) a chapter (or book) of pre-built power sets to ease the process of creating superhero characters. They surely felt that the example heroes and villains, combined with players' own imaginations were sufficient. Then again, if you look at the write-up of just about any 1st ed. Champions villain, its lack of complexity (compared with its 5th or 6th edition equivalent) seems almost quaint. And ineffably digestable, by comparison.

 

I agree that the biggest obstacle to the Hero System's acceptance by newcomers is its presentation. But seeing as how just about anyone qualified to write a core Hero System book will inevitably have drunk the Kool-Aid with respect to traditional presentation, I'm not sure where a good "Hero System For Dummies" book would come from.

 

That brought a smile.  Yes I would say my old 1st Ed characters are indeed a bit quaint. 

 

And yes, I think you may be right.  By the time someone knows Hero well enough to write a book, their view of the game would be inline with existing doctrine.  But I don't think the layout presentation of the rules is bad at all for the existing material.  The rulebooks are clear and well written.  The sourcebook are great.  The Pulp Hero source book may be one of the best ever written for Pulp. 

 

It isn't that the existing information is bad, it is the missing information that has been left out.  I tend to want my examples to be for non-super settings because they are far easier, but lets talk about Champs. 

 

For setting information the Hero books are either nothing or everything.  If I were to add a fast chargen chapter to Champions Complete I would take four of the simplest to use/build archetypes from the Superhero Gallery in Champions and insert them.  Not the entire gallery.  Just four like Brick, Blaster, Speedster and Martial Artist all stripped of annotation.

 

Instead of:

 

9 points -

Ch’i Healing: Healing BODY and STUN 2d6, Expanded

Effect (+½); Extra Time (1 Turn; -1¼), Concentration

(½ DCV throughout; -½), Requires An EGO Roll (-½)

 

Just say:

 

9 points -

Ch’i Healing: Heals 2d6 BODY and STUN

 

Sure they would be limited characters, but they would be able to create them and play today. 

 

Then after the full rules chapters, you can detail out all the point costs.  The pre-gens and limited power builds are not intended to replace the toolkit.  They would be intended to allow new gamers to get straight into the action with minimal time and gain a small working knowledge of the game in play.  Then they would have enough context to understand the just what they are doing with the full rules. 

 

Once again, this would not replace the existing rule write ups.  The idea is to augment them with a couple small chapters of canned pre-builds to illustrate the game. 

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Here is the review from RPG.net of it I linked to yesterday

http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/classic/rev_993.phtml

it was done in 4th edition and Fusion

 

Fusion may have been the problem for it
But if done in just Hero 6th/CC w/ plug and play powers(just PD/ED and around 6d6 / 2d6KA

and as a free pdf this could be the entry drug to get more hooked on Hero

 

I confess that I do not know anything about this "Wild Strike" you speak of.

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Spence, I agree with your approach there. I see no reason to inundate beginners with all the calculations that yield the final point costs for things. And a good way to introduce the game gently is to use simplified powers without many advantages or limitations.

 

Unfortunately, even if one were to find and recruit a writer capable of putting together a really good Starter version of Champions or Fantasy Hero or whatever, there remain two significant hurdles to its realization and long-term success. First is the problem of getting such a book published as an official Hero Games product, and the second is their reluctance to build a thriving product line out of and around that initial effort (where "product line" equals a detailed setting, villains, and adventures ready-to-use).

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why would you want to run 2 product lines of the same stuff
even D&D has stopped that (5th ed D&D just has the basic set and now there is core set and)

the quick start is to just get players knowing the basics,then have them playing the core rules
considering that Derek did CC and Micheal Surbrook is doing FH
it might be as simple as just reprinting Wildstrike and pulling the Fusion stuff and updating to 6th ed/CC standard

 

 


Spence, I agree with your approach there. I see no reason to inundate beginners with all the calculations that yield the final point costs for things. And a good way to introduce the game gently is to use simplified powers without many advantages or limitations.

Unfortunately, even if one were to find and recruit a writer capable of putting together a really good Starter version of Champions or Fantasy Hero or whatever, there remain two significant hurdles to its realization and long-term success. First is the problem of getting such a book published as an official Hero Games product, and the second is their reluctance to build a thriving product line out of and around that initial effort (where "product line" equals a detailed setting, villains, and adventures ready-to-use).

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I don't think Hero is so much reluctant to put out anything as limited in resources and money to pay for it.  Putting out a really nice basic Hero 101 for dummies book for each genre would be a nice step (Champions for Dummies, etc) but beyond that what has been published should work fine for setting and the rest - especially if older products were rebooted and updated for 6th edition.

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As a basic neophyte (someone who played Champions a bit way back when, bought Champions Complete and is assembling a library of supplements but so far only contemplating actually playing) I can personally attest to the 'gobbledygook' intimidation factor.  I look over the CC example builds and think I basically get them - how the points break down and why they were written in a certain way.  But then I got to the equipment build section in the back.  Lasso of Truth, OK, pretty straightforward.  A way to represent a Power Ring, quite a bit more but we are talking about versatility that most rulesets struggle with, I can live with it.  Then comes. . . (dum,dum,dum), the Questionite Shield -  almost a whole column of powers and modifiers for one item.  I admit my heart sank a little. Did we need every possible type of shield-slinging?  Can't we just go with the most common uses? 

 

CC is a well-presented, streamlined book, but noob-friendly it is not (and I'm speaking as a long-time gamer who has played numerous hex and counter wargames in addition to rpgs).  I think the posts here are hitting the nail on the head - a layer of chrome seperating potential players from the mechanics is the only way to grab more.  The new 5e DnD books are mechanically not too different from the clunky 1st and 2nd editions, but they are so gloriously illustrated and beautiful to browse through (and un-intimidating), that I find myself not caring what is 'under the hood'!

 

Kinda feel like I just put my head in a noose, but that's my .02.

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