7th Edition thoughts

[Ninja-Bear]

Out Of The Box means that when you read the Character Creation chapter you come out the other end with a fully playable Character that already fits the assumed Campaign Default. You can not do that with Hero. There are already a number of built in decisions that must be made (least of which being: How many points do we get?) before you can even start to create a character.

Ummm didn't the BBB do this though? It has a premade adventure and you could use the Champions straight as is to run the adventure. And I believe the BBB was considered a succes in part because of this.

[ghost-angel]

BBB was also the first version of the rules to have Champions and Hero System as separate things; meaning the BBB was effectively a Setting Book with the Rules added to it, like Champions Complete today.

 

I own a copy of the BBB, but I primarily used the Hero System Rulebook, which is similar to the 5e And 6e rules in that they have no built in assumptions.

 

 

Once again; since Hero is decidedly unlike D&D or Pathfinder, or most other games you have Setting Books which provide some of the baseline questions answered, and a Rule Book, which has none of that. And Hero is now migrating away from a Single Book To Rule Them All to splintered "Complete" Books for genres, effectively locking them down to preconceived ideas about setting information.

 

But even Champions Complete doesn't go far enough (some tables with rather important comparison numbers information were hacked out) and still tries to be an open sourcebook for Supherhero Gaming.

 

 

Hero System is fundamentally Not Like D&D; not matter what D&D setting you pick up, no matter what splat book you grab, no matter what homebrew you make up; the underlying D&D Base will always be the same unless you change it yourself. There are no rules provided in the Player's Handbook or Dungeon Master's Handbook to create, or fundamentally alter, the Classes with all the pre-built information and abilities of them.

 

And that's a massive difference. Hero says, very literally, "Make what you want, here are the blocks" - while D&D says "here are some action figures, go play."

 

How do you change that? Well, for one I'd stop making these "Complete" books entirely, I find them cumbersome, tiresome, and self defeating. Make a serious effort to create an actual set of Setting Books with A Rules Chapter like we've never seen before that literally walks you through Character Creation, and has some serious guidelines of "X Points should be spent in Characteristics" - and no, I do not mean those pre-built Templates we got in Champions 6E. But a step by step "Choose X here. Choose y Here." and the setting books do not come with "How to build your Spells" but a "Here are Spells, choose Z Points of them."

 

If you want to actually lower the barrier of entry, or create a more standard Read & Play book, you have to remove many of the choices that the base rules provide. Which means you really stop making Genre Books and just make Rule Books and Setting Books.

[Ndreare]

The Big Blue Book of champions fourth was what got or group interested in Hero System.

 

The presentation was good enough that as soon as Garrett saw it he saw its potential for replacing Palladium fantasy as our game. Funny thing is the presentation was good enough that it worked even though we did not play super heroes.

 

Ever since my first game Hero System has had a place in my top three games.

[Ndreare]

Modified post because I am slow to learn about reading my post before submitting them using Android.

[zslane]

BBB was also the first version of the rules to have Champions and Hero System as separate things; meaning the BBB was effectively a Setting Book with the Rules added to it, like Champions Complete today.

 

I own a copy of the BBB, but I primarily used the Hero System Rulebook, which is similar to the 5e And 6e rules in that they have no built in assumptions.

 

 

Once again; since Hero is decidedly unlike D&D or Pathfinder, or most other games you have Setting Books which provide some of the baseline questions answered, and a Rule Book, which has none of that. And Hero is now migrating away from a Single Book To Rule Them All to splintered "Complete" Books for genres, effectively locking them down to preconceived ideas about setting information.

 

But even Champions Complete doesn't go far enough (some tables with rather important comparison numbers information were hacked out) and still tries to be an open sourcebook for Supherhero Gaming.

 

 

Hero System is fundamentally Not Like D&D; not matter what D&D setting you pick up, no matter what splat book you grab, no matter what homebrew you make up; the underlying D&D Base will always be the same unless you change it yourself. There are no rules provided in the Player's Handbook or Dungeon Master's Handbook to create, or fundamentally alter, the Classes with all the pre-built information and abilities of them.

 

And that's a massive difference. Hero says, very literally, "Make what you want, here are the blocks" - while D&D says "here are some action figures, go play."

 

How do you change that? Well, for one I'd stop making these "Complete" books entirely, I find them cumbersome, tiresome, and self defeating. Make a serious effort to create an actual set of Setting Books with A Rules Chapter like we've never seen before that literally walks you through Character Creation, and has some serious guidelines of "X Points should be spent in Characteristics" - and no, I do not mean those pre-built Templates we got in Champions 6E. But a step by step "Choose X here. Choose y Here." and the setting books do not come with "How to build your Spells" but a "Here are Spells, choose Z Points of them."

 

If you want to actually lower the barrier of entry, or create a more standard Read & Play book, you have to remove many of the choices that the base rules provide. Which means you really stop making Genre Books and just make Rule Books and Setting Books.

This. A thousand Likes upon this post.

 

ghost-angel...gets it. :-)

[Christopher R Taylor]

I agree that the 4th Edition Champions book (BBB) was the most effective to me as a player and GM at the time in terms of presentation, but it looks very dated now and probably wouldn't hold up well today.  However, the philosophy of "here's the rules, how to build characters specifically, how to run a game, some bad guys, and a few adventures" is a great approach that definitely would be welcome.

 

The Complete books are selling quite well, however, so I disagree that's the "wrong" approach.  Clearly at least at some level it is the right approach.  I just think there needs to be an entry level 101 sort of book as well, something to bring in new players.

[ghost-angel]

I think the Champions Complete is selling OK because a) it's Champions and that product always sells well and b ) it's the Only version of the rules currently in print at all.

 

The real test will be if Fantasy Complete sells well after all the KS people get their copies and ongoing sales forward can be measured.

 

So, I'm not going to say it's a failure, but I won't say it's a success either.

[schir1964]

...

Make a serious effort to create an actual set of Setting Books with A Rules Chapter like we've never seen before that literally walks you through Character Creation, and has some serious guidelines of "X Points should be spent in Characteristics" - and no, I do not mean those pre-built Templates we got in Champions 6E. But a step by step "Choose X here. Choose y Here." and the setting books do not come with "How to build your Spells" but a "Here are Spells, choose Z Points of them."

 

If you want to actually lower the barrier of entry, or create a more standard Read & Play book, you have to remove many of the choices that the base rules provide. Which means you really stop making Genre Books and just make Rule Books and Setting Books.

This is kind of thing I was alluding to when mentioned "Guidelines" for both GM/Writer alike.

 

I can see this as potentially breaking down the barrier for new players to get into the Hero system.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[NuSoardGraphite]

I'm all for supplements full of stuff to drop into games. those are my favorite kinds of game books. more toys is always better. but i would much rather have settings expansions over adventure scenarios. maybe i'm in a minority, but i very rarely like any adventure scenarios that i've seen published with very few exceptions, but i oftentimes find great inspiration from an expansion to the setting that gives me enough ideas to keep the game running for many more months. the games that excel at setting expansion books tend to be the ones with longevity and that generate the diehard fanbase.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think probably the best approach is not to reduce choices, but to showcase simplicity and then reveal greater options for more advanced players.  So instead of trimming back the game or dumbing it down, presenting it in stages to attract, then inform or educate.

[mhd]

What I also liked a lot from a publishing perspective are all-in-one books, where you've got a basic or lite version of the rules system in the core book. Like GURPS did with Discworld or HERO with Lucha Libre Hero. I mean, I personally don't get a lot out of it as I do have the core books, but it's a good introduction to the system for other people.

 

Not that I'm saying that a lot of stand-alone and/or franchised games are that great. It would be great as a licensing option, though. Let's say I want to publish a few versions of my "Leather Pants of the Ancients" sword & sorcery setting. The Savage Worlds and Pathfinder versions don't need auxiliary materials, because everyone either already has the system (PF) or can buy it for a buck (SW), but I'd be allowed to reprint "HERO Basic" as an appendix for the HERO version, so no one has to think twice about buying a superhero system or two massive ablative armor sets.

[Ninja-Bear]

I think probably the best approach is not to reduce choices, but to showcase simplicity and then reveal greater options for more advanced players. So instead of trimming back the game or dumbing it down, presenting it in stages to attract, then inform or educate.

I agree with this. Mob rule (from BBB) did alittle of this by presenting it as also playable from street super heros and comedy options. I think problem all that was needed was an extra page explaining that you could modify it to play dark champions heroic level and you were free to either modify Champion characters or add in optional abilities. Though since this was a beginner adventure perhaps a note that it would be best played with no options until the group had a better feel for the basics.

[zslane]

It can be challenging making a product line that maximizes its value to beginners and newcomers to the system while also appealing to veterans of the game. I think the best that a "Starter" Read & Play line of books can hope to do is have enough good setting content that experienced Hero System players can extract what they find compelling from it, while discarding the stuff they don't need (like adventures, which they are accustomed to making up all on their own). It would be impossible to be all things to all players, and any new product line has to decide who it is meant for and commit to that. If the product line is serious about drawing in newcomers to the system, then it can't be afraid to alienate, to an extent, veterans (who are into building their own stuff from get go). Sorry, but that means all of us, more or less.

 

As such, I would aim the presentation of a 7th edition squarely at newcomers, while filling the books with enough rich setting material that veterans would still find something of value in them. What I would probably do is provide a free "Advanced Appendix" PDF online for each book that supplies full point breakdowns of each spell, item, power, etc. for those veterans who want to pick things apart and rebuild them in their own image. But for the kind of player these books would be designed to attract, all that stuff would be so much pointless--if not off-putting--noise, and I wouldn't even stick it in the back of the books.

[ghost-angel]

If I were creating a new 7E Line... the main rule books would look a lot like the 6E Rulebooks.

 

But the "Champions Genre Book" would be tossed out the window. You would get "Champions Universe" and it could easily come with a Hero Basic style set of rules, with an Optional Rule subset aimed directly at the way the universe is set up (no Bleeding Rules, includes Knockback, etc).

 

The Champions Universe would also have a chapter outlining how to make a Standard 450 Point Champions Character - and No Other Power Levels. That's the baseline assumed by a CU game, that's what you present. So when a player sits down, a lot of decisions are made - they can literally go through Character Creation and come out with a recognizable Superhero that could fit into the CU and the GM isn't spending time creating and presenting power levels, caps, etc... it's just there - that's the rules for this Setting.

 

You can add a page about Increasing or Decreasing said levels, but mostly it will refer you to the Main Rules for More Options on setting up a game Just Like You Want It.

 

I love the Genre Books, but they spend a lot of time discussing how to play various subsets of any given Genre - again, making them toolkits. I wouldn't market Toolkits in the future, I'd market Game Worlds. But that's me, and I have not enough money to buy my way into Lead Designer....

[zslane]

If you had the time, you could write and publish them yourself. I am led to understand that Hero System licenses are easy to acquire and very reasonable.

[Spence]

It can be challenging making a product line that maximizes its value to beginners and newcomers to the system while also appealing to veterans of the game. I think the best that a "Starter" Read & Play line of books can hope to do is have enough good setting content that experienced Hero System players can extract what they find compelling from it, while discarding the stuff they don't need (like adventures, which they are accustomed to making up all on their own). It would be impossible to be all things to all players, and any new product line has to decide who it is meant for and commit to that. If the product line is serious about drawing in newcomers to the system, then it can't be afraid to alienate, to an extent, veterans (who are into building their own stuff from get go). Sorry, but that means all of us, more or less.

 

As such, I would aim the presentation of a 7th edition squarely at newcomers, while filling the books with enough rich setting material that veterans would still find something of value in them. What I would probably do is provide a free "Advanced Appendix" PDF online for each book that supplies full point breakdowns of each spell, item, power, etc. for those veterans who want to pick things apart and rebuild them in their own image. But for the kind of player these books would be designed to attract, all that stuff would be so much pointless--if not off-putting--noise, and I wouldn't even stick it in the back of the books.

 

Yes yes yes yes yes yes.  This is what I have been saying for YEARS.  The book has to aim at the new player and have pre-built stuff that they can just pick up and go.  They will not care about the intricacies of detailed builds until after they have actually played the game. 

 

If I were creating a new 7E Line... the main rule books would look a lot like the 6E Rulebooks.

 

But the "Champions Genre Book" would be tossed out the window. You would get "Champions Universe" and it could easily come with a Hero Basic style set of rules, with an Optional Rule subset aimed directly at the way the universe is set up (no Bleeding Rules, includes Knockback, etc).

 

The Champions Universe would also have a chapter outlining how to make a Standard 450 Point Champions Character - and No Other Power Levels. That's the baseline assumed by a CU game, that's what you present. So when a player sits down, a lot of decisions are made - they can literally go through Character Creation and come out with a recognizable Superhero that could fit into the CU and the GM isn't spending time creating and presenting power levels, caps, etc... it's just there - that's the rules for this Setting.

 

You can add a page about Increasing or Decreasing said levels, but mostly it will refer you to the Main Rules for More Options on setting up a game Just Like You Want It.

 

I love the Genre Books, but they spend a lot of time discussing how to play various subsets of any given Genre - again, making them toolkits. I wouldn't market Toolkits in the future, I'd market Game Worlds. But that's me, and I have not enough money to buy my way into Lead Designer....

 

Yes.  Look at D&D, Pathfinder and 13th Age.  Of all intents and purposes all of the first level players are in the same world.  Some cosmetic name differences and those differences due to rule mechanics, but they all face off against the same threats in the same flavor of world. 

 

I'd include a way to build a simple complete Fighter, Cleric, Mage and Rogue of the four basic races (Human, Elf, Dwarf and Halfling) and outfit them with basic weapons and two basic but complete magic systems (Divine and Sorcery).    Make the racial packages simple and only applying to physical differences, at the basic level of beginner play no one uses cultural differences anyway.  Make all build selections cost a fixed basic cost and leave out any and all mention of point cost. 

 

I am a Mage. To cast 1 spell a day costs X, 2 spells a day costs X.  I can add a spell from the list to my book for X points.  I can know as many spells as I am willing to spend for, but I can only cast X a day. 

 

Later, after they have played a few learning sessions they will read the rest of the rulebook, the toolkit part.  After they have gained a basic understanding of how the rules work in play, they will be ready to tinker.    Add an appendix of a chapter immediately after the build rule chapter breaking down all the initial builds with full point annotation and some details of the reasoning that was used to arrive at the builds used. 

 

Now a new player can pick up the book.  Easily play a session or two the get a feel for the game in play, and when and only when they feel comfortable with basic play, they can enter the toolkit universe. 

 

The current problem with the entire Hero line is we completely skip the introduction and how to play the basic game part and leap headlong into advanced expert mode.  

 

Most of my friends have been GM's for years.  They have no issue with picking up any RPG, running a few sessions to learn how the game runs in actual play, and then adjusting it to their personal style.  All of them absolutely refuse to try Hero because it dies not have a way for them to run a few sessions and learn how the game runs in play.   

 

Instead it sits at the empty table and shouts, I am great!, but you will have to build a universe from scratch before you can actually take me out for a test drive.  

 

Gamers take a system out for a spin to decide if they want to expend the hours of effort to design campaigns and play it.

They do not expend the hours of effort to design the test drive to see if they would like it. 

 

I love the Champions Universe, but the products covering it are not designed for the gamer that has never heard if it to run it.   Instead the books give broad visions of possibilities and then character write-ups. 

 

Tool Kit.  I understand.  But new players do not have enough experience with the system to make the decisions to use the tool kit and by the time the one person in the group has the epiphany the rest have moved on and already invested time and money into something else. 

 

Make a usable entry level campaign city with one low point mastermind and a handful of solo villains suitable for a beginning group of starting standard Heroes built using the included quick build options.  Make it vanilla, do not get cute or try to be rad or cool.  Lay out the basic plot lines and intent of the villains in an easy to follow format for the fledgling GM.  Most GM's are used to D&D style delving adventures so free flowing investigative and/or superheroic type adventures will be a new thing.  Lighten the rules/build part of the load as much as possible in the beginning.   Create the starter mini-campaign so that the GM will not even need to use the tool kit aspect at all to play.   But, just like with the quick build PC information, include an appendix/chapter that breaks down all the builds and explains the how and why. 

 

Once the players and the GM have been actually able to PLAY the game and get a feel for how things work in play.   They will be able to grasp the tool kit concepts much easier and just playing the characters (player or NPC) will give them all kinds of ideas for their own builds. 

 

A simple generic starter city/mini-campaign can then be expanded or dropped entirely.  In fact, I wouldn't even name the introduction city.    It would just be "the City".  But I would build it with one of the Hero Campaign settings in mind so that a more detailed Campaign Book such as Millennium City, Vibora Bay or Hudson City could just be plugged in.    I personally use Hudson City for all my supers games because the map/descriptive information is just awesome and easily adaptable to any genre from modern to 30's pulp.  It can be Gotham or Metropolis at the flip of a coin. 

 

But in the end, Hero needs to focus on something for NEW players.  Not to only continue to re-publish materiel for the already existing players. 

 

I am 50 and the vast majority of posters on these boards are the same people that were the vast majority of posters 15 years ago.    I stepped away from the forums for most of a year, and when I returned it was as if I never left. 

 

This is not a good thing.  It means that there are very very very very very very few new players. 

After being away for months I should not even recognize at least 60% of the posters. 

 

That said.  I do not think there is a need for a 7th Edition of the rules. I do however strongly agree that there needs to be a complete revision of how the game is presented and how it is taught/introduced to new players.   And starting with massive blocks of arcane annotation is definitely not it.

[Greywind]

Yes yes yes yes yes yes.  This is what I have been saying for YEARS.  The book has to aim at the new player and have pre-built stuff that they can just pick up and go.  They will not care about the intricacies of detailed builds until after they have actually played the game.

 

I disagree with this. If this were exactly the case, I never would have gotten into it. It was the ability to build what I wanted that drew me in.

[Spence]

I disagree with this. If this were exactly the case, I never would have gotten into it. It was the ability to build what I wanted that drew me in.

 

So you disagree with new players or is it making the game more accessible?

 

You do realize no one is trying to change any of the core concepts or rules?

 

But there is a real need to change the method being used to draw in new players.

 

Do I prefer running my own worlds? Absolutely. But i didn't begin my RPG hobby by immediately creating a campaign world from scratch. I played first. Tyen tweeked my PC. Then ran canned adventures. Then created my own.

 

The same for Champs. The prebuilt NPC and mooks were instrumental in figuring out a good feel for in game balance.

 

The new hero books don't allow this. In CC the examples are designed to send new players fleeing in terror. Imagine if all the character examples in the new D&D book were 20th level? Have you stepped back and looked at the character examples in Champions books? I think they tried to use as many options as possible in each one. A character like Defender is not one easily played by a new gamer.

 

Instead of everyone trying to impress people or give another rendition of me me me, how about everyone take a strp back and say "how can we recast the game so that an average 8th grader can not only grasp the concepts, but actually play it?

 

Hero's in game play rules are ridiculously easy. But most gamers never reach the actual game because the full build rules are presented before the in game play rules are even mentioned.

 

Before you drive a formula race car, you generally learn to drive in a less expensive car.

 

When a new player picks up a copy of CC they are presented with organized chaos. Like a b flick sensei turned master villain, The secrets to life are before you my son, but it is my job to conceal them...muhhahhaaa

[Greywind]

No. I'm disagreeing with you on your blanket statements. Not everyone is the same. Not everyone looks for the same things. Not all new players are looking to be spoon fed.

[NuSoardGraphite]

I think the accessibility of the newer gams coming out is making gamers lazy. i remember a day when it was implied that there was quite a bit of work the GM had to do to prepare for any game, regardless of the system or setting. some games were slightly more accessible to new players like basic d&d, but in general all rpgs were barebones and required quite a bit of fleshing out to get the most from them.

 

Now games worlds are so detailed, and rules sets and character creation so "lite" that it requires very little work on anyones part anymore. Are we really getting to the point to where we want "choose your own adventure" modules where the gm isnt even necessary?

 

Part of the appeal of being a GM is the ability to craft worlds and stories and present them to your players to see how they will respond and the feeling of gratification for the GM when he or she recieves a positive response is euphoric.

 

When i first started roleplaying, i played d&d with my cousing ONE TIME. i enjoyed it, so i found the basic d&d boxed set. learned the rules, gathered the biggest nerds in the school together and ran a game. i had no campaign setting. no monster book. no players guide. Just the basic boxed set. i pulled a campaign setting out of my butt. created monsters on the fly. gave out magical items with abilities i pulled from my nethers. within a month i was creating my own game world to set our adventures in. this was all done with the basic d&d boxed set, before i even bought the expert set that included advice on "wilderness adventures".

 

What happened to that? are we now so lazy or require instant gratifcation that gamers are unwilling to put the work in to get the rewards that awaits?

[shuddemell]

...

 

What happened to that? are we now so lazy or require instant gratifcation that gamers are unwilling to put the work in to get the rewards that awaits?

 

I think that is exactly it. So many of the newer gamers are used to having everything served on a platter, that they don't wan't to do any of the cooking themselves. It is a byproduct of our fast-food society. This, in a nutshell, is why I don't believe Hero will ever be popular as a mainstream system. I personally love Hero for the ability to craft things to my liking, but that is an old attitude requiring work and dedication, and most younger players cannot be bothered to put in that effort. You are right in that, in most cases, in the 70's and 80's at least, we had no choice but to flesh out the rules... We were breaking new ground, and the creativity of it made it a labor of love for a lot of us. It just doesn't seem to be that way anymore. I even see it in my current profession... there are very few true craftsmen left in printing, everything has become quick turn work with little art to it. 

 

As far as repurposing presentation, I think that indeed Hero would benefit from it in terms of clarity... but would it sell more? I doubt it, because you probably won't attract enough newbies to counteract the grognards you lose... 

 

Even now, I would say presentation wise, Hero is presented about as well as possible without changing its toolbox aspect, and if you do change that... you lose my interest.

[zslane]

I'm not sure it is quite fair to label it spoon-feeding. I don't think what I have in mind would be that simplified.

 

I'm really not a fan of over-simplification. I hate it when I see pages in a rulebook that talk about what an RPG is and how it is "just like Let's Pretend, but with dice", as if the reader doesn't even know what the fundamental activity is they are buying the book for. I believe there are ways to jumpstart readers into playing a complex game without making them feel like toddlers. In fact, I'm not the least bit opposed to writing with the assumption that the reader is new to the Hero System, but not new to the hobby. But let's be honest here, the way the system has been presented for the last dozen years is simply not newcomer-friendly. A drastically different approach needs to be explored because the existing approach doesn't appear to be bringing in much in the way of new blood (or revenue).

[zslane]

The notion that a streamlined presentation and a rich toolbox are mutually exclusive is a false dichotomy. It is an alarming dichotomy only if the entire brand is expressed in a single book. That shouldn't be the case.

 

There should always be the equivalent to 6E1/6E2 or the BBB for the grognards. I even like the idea of an entire core library like the 6e one, even though the marketplace seems to have convinced Hero Games that it isn't a worthwhile product scheme. But once the core system document is birthed, there ought to be product lines built upon it that provide newcomer-friendly entry points into the system, as well as rich campaign settings that appeal to the vast ocean of non-hardcore-DIY roleplayers out there.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think there's been a big change over the years.  Back when role playing games first started out, lethality was an expected consequence; anyone remember the sample dungeon in the DMG where the low level guys encounter ghouls and one character gets paralyzed and chewed up while the others stand around looking up?  Arcade games were built to eat quarters, so they were almost all unbeatable; they just got harder and harder until you ran out of money or died.  Early computer and console games did the same thing because that's what the pattern was and it was expected.  You got x lives, and then it was up, and when you died, you started from the beginning of that level.  I remember well beating Curse of Montezuma, in which there was less and less light until in the final level it was completely black. The screen was actually blank, and you ran the entire several levels from memory.  It was really really hard on a level modern gamers are completely unaware of.

 

These days gamers can set the difficulty level, use cheat codes, download maps and tips, look up solutions online, and expect things to be easier.  What we put up with in a game just 10 years ago we will consider too hard these days.  So yeah, things have gotten dumbed down and people aren't as willing to try as hard or learn things.  That's bad, but its the reality of the market and shaking your fist and spitting into the night won't change that.  So while I think it would be a critical and franchise-killing mistake to dumb down Hero (hello Fuzion), introductory stuff to make it super easy to get into the game is a smart move.

[shuddemell]

The notion that a streamlined presentation and a rich toolbox are mutually exclusive is a false dichotomy. It is an alarming dichotomy only if the entire brand is expressed in a single book. That shouldn't be the case.

 

There should always be the equivalent to 6E1/6E2 or the BBB for the grognards. I even like the idea of an entire core library like the 6e one, even though the marketplace seems to have convinced Hero Games that it isn't a worthwhile product scheme. But once the core system document is birthed, there ought to be product lines built upon it that provide newcomer-friendly entry points into the system, as well as rich campaign settings that appeal to the vast ocean of non-hardcore-DIY roleplayers out there.

Agreed. I think maybe I was unclear what I meant by losing grognards. I don't mean you would lose them as players and gms, but rather would probably not make many sells from them on basic stuff geared to the newbies. And ultimately as a business, that is what it is about. I don't know if enough sales of CC were made to truly call it a success, but I would wager that is how many new players you would need to attract to even make such a retool a going concern. More importantly, what you suggest doing, certainly could be made with the sixth edition rules without requiring a 7th edition. Which I would heartily applaud and support.