7th Edition thoughts

[Chris Goodwin]

Heroic Action Points need to be removed from the game. I hate heroic action points with undying passion. They reward incompetence and poor social and combat choices. There shouldn't be a reward for something that the player paid for in chargen and is meant to be a disadvantage. Any time you do that, people will game the system. I've played in games with Heroic Action Points. In order to drive the story, in ANY reasonable fashion, one of two things happens. The villain never shows up until the end of the story because multiple uses of heroic action points defeat him, or every combat devolves into running the heroes out of Heroic Action Points.

 

I get that you don't like them and don't use them, but are you saying that no one should use them?  

[Tasha]

Hero's Heroic Action Points are a bit overly complex IMHO. They do have an important role to play in the game. For one, it allows for players who are having a streak of bad luck to actually be able to Mitigate that somewhat. So the player can still feel like their character was fun to play and was effective.

[bluesguy]

IMO the last thing needed is a new edition of Hero Game system.  And yes I am partially hijacking this thread.  IMO what is needed:

 

Settings - for example for a fantasy setting

• World building information
  • World map
  • Detailed regional map
  • High level time line
  • Detailed recent history
  • Races, Cultures, Nations, etc
  • Magic
  • Deities/Religion
  • Current major players
• Game mechanics
  • Huge list of equipment - combat, non-combat, vehicles (ships, etc)
  • Package deals for all the races
  • One defined magic system with advice about how to include additional magic systems if desired.  A bunch spells based on the defined magic system
  • Magic items - how common, how powerful, and if they exist some examples
  • Bestiary (or a list of monsters from already published material)
  • Common 'human' opponents (bandits, guards, thieves, mages, clerics, etc)
• Adventures for 'official settings'
  • Setting material will stay canon to races, cultures, nations, magic and deities, unless pre-approved by Hero
  • Include short adventures, 1 to 3 sessions, and epic ones that are something like the 'pathfinder' approach
• "Kingdom modules" for the official setting
  • Setting material will stay canon to races, cultures, nations, magic and deities, unless pre-approved by Hero
  • Flesh out a kingdom - politics, government, economic system, races, cities and towns, etc.

Adventures

 

Stand alone adventures, short or long, which have everything that is needed to run them.  They may even include pre-generated player characters so the adventure could be run at a gaming convention or a game night at the local gaming/comic book shop.

 

Equipment/Spells

 

Playing in a heroic game often means the GM is left creating a bunch of commonly understood but not Hero defined equipment/spells.  Having a book or even one to five page PDF files with a number of these items by genre & power level (normal, heroic, low powered super, super, galactic superhero) would be great.

 

Magic Systems

 

I would love to see http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/shrikeMagicSystemAdvisor.aspx turned into a 'book'.

 

And everything published should include the Hero Designer files so the material can be used with HD right out of the box.  I know some of you don't like HD.

 

 

And yes I have slipped on my +10 ED flame protective suit of armor :-)

[Stacie.Winters]

Actually bluesguy those are all very wonderful ideas and I fully support them.

 

The reason why Mutants and Masterminds is considered the best supers game in the roleplaying hobby by a great number of people is probably a few things... it's core system is influenced by the d20 system and the first two editions of M&M were, IMO, a d20 system game but 3rd edition has distanced itself from that image, to me at least. The books were always full color and pretty and when it first came out it just took off like a freight train and it was instantly compared to Hero System because both are Point Buy games where you spend your points to build your characters but the way M&M had it's Power Levels which helped people compare character's of different power levels and those levels also set in game maximums of how and where you can spend your points it seemed a lot easier for people to use than Hero's system of fractions when it came to building powers.

 

Sure Hero System is a better toolkit game... probably the best toolkit game ever. But most people don't want to study a game, then create everything they will need for a game, using a point buy system that has no real in game maximum benchmarks that are firmly set in stone, and then require a calculator to do all the math to make characters.

 

It also has a focused setting that's much prettier than the Champions Universe, and the game uses the OGL. The game uses just a single d20 for all rolls, it's damage system is way easier to use, and in some ways makes more sense. So it has the appearance of simplicity and ease and today that's what a lot of people today want.

 

I prefer Hero System because it's way more awesome, but I can see the grand appeal of M&M to the many masses out there.

[Old Man]

I think in Hero 7 we should stop fooling ourselves and make that Charactersitic/5 value how Primarys are bought. It does need thought for CON scores, but that COULD be left as the current value since there's no real in game reason for people to make a Con Roll. It does figure into whether one is stunned or not.

I kind of wanted to go the other way and increase granularity. For years I've wanted each point of STR and DEX to matter in Fantasy Hero. Dividing characteristics by 5 would, for heroic games, give an approximate stat range of 1-5.

 

Implementing such a change is easier said than done, of course. It could involve tinkering with the dice to get a wider range of possible results. I know the 3d6 to hit roll is iconic, but sometimes I wonder if it isn't an unnecessary constraint.

 

Also, healing (and its relation to optional rules like hit location and bleeding) needs serious fixing.

[Stacie.Winters]

Maybe we don't need a 7th Edition... but I would say that the game needs a totally different image and one that would give gamers a different opinion about the game because right now a lot of people out there have a low opinion of the game. 

 

Perhaps we could use more settings with premade character's and quick start rules and adventures.

 

Usually though, the only real way to change a game's image is with a new edition.

[Stacie.Winters]

I kind of wanted to go the other way and increase granularity. For years I've wanted each point of STR and DEX to matter in Fantasy Hero. Dividing characteristics by 5 would, for heroic games, give an approximate stat range of 1-5.

 

Implementing such a change is easier said than done, of course. It could involve tinkering with the dice to get a wider range of possible results. I know the 3d6 to hit roll is iconic, but sometimes I wonder if it isn't an unnecessary constraint.

 

Also, healing (and its relation to optional rules like hit location and bleeding) needs serious fixing.

 

I like that idea about making each point matter in Characteristics.

 

Mind if I ask you... what's wrong with healing (and as regards to the hit location and bleeding rules)?

[Balabanto]

I get that you don't like them and don't use them, but are you saying that no one should use them?  

 

I am saying that no one should use them. Roleplaying is supposed to be a social activity. There are good rolls and there are bad rolls. The price of playing the game is that there has to be failure as well as success. I get that games are supposed to be fun and people are supposed to feel effective. I get that. But...

 

The problem with Heroic Action points is that it fills the game with "win" and doesn't carry with it any risk. Heroic Action Points, and what they teach, is poor sportsmanship. Like any game, be it football, basketball, D+D, Champions, or what have you, at the end of the game, you should be able to get up from the table and shake hands with the person on the other side, and say "You played a great game." It isn't that someone has to win and that someone has to lose. It's that if the same person always loses, the social value of the concept of playing a game is devalued.

 

And that's why I don't like Heroic Action Points. It takes away from the concept of actually mastering playing the game.

[mallet]

I like the idea of Hero Action Points in theory, but I don't like the players automatically getting them (especially 2d6 of them at the beginning of every session). 

 

In the one campaign I've used them in I doled them out very carefully with players getting one point if they did something especially heroic, selfless, made an amazing roll at just the right time, or basically anything that improved the game or the enjoyment of the other players. These point carried over between session, and could be spent in future dire circumstances if the player wished. Any points spent were gone and would have to be earned back (and you couldn't earn new HAPs in situations you spent HAPs to succeed). In a sense they were a form of xp that the players earned and spent to improve the story, not their characters. 

 

Star Wars: Edge of Empire RPG has an interesting take on HAPs. They have Destiny points, little tokens with a Light Side and a Dark Side. The players role at the beginning of the session and have a "pool" of Destiny points (both Dark Side and Light Side). If a player wants to spend a Light Side Destiny point to effect a situation in the game he flips the token over and something good happens, but then it becomes a dark side point. Then if the GM wants to effect an event he can flips a dark side token over, making something unfortunate happen to the players, and now the players once again have a light side token they can use. So it kind of moves back and forth during the session. If the players "spend" all of their light side Destiny points right at the start, then the GM has a large pool of Dark Side points he can use to mess with the players later on. 

[mhd]

Maybe we don't need a 7th Edition... but I would say that the game needs a totally different image and one that would give gamers a different opinion about the game because right now a lot of people out there have a low opinion of the game.

And I believe that most of them have that for the "right" reason. I don't think that this is all just some marketing issue, completely based on misunderstandings or past mistakes. Complex power creation (involving *gasp* basic math!) is at the very heart of HERO, as does tactical combat. Even if you sacrifice some holy cows like the speed chart or normal damage, it'll still be crunchier than what's usual nowadays. A non-bulletproof core ruleset helps the people on the very edge of that, but the large majority couldn't be convinced to change their mind by some new basic HERO release that still resembles the current game.

 

Now, I'm not saying that you couldn't make a prefab "lite" variant game that could appeal to those who would otherwise be inclined to go with Savage Worlds. Although at that point, you're probably quite close to some form of Fuzion again.

[Lucius]

I like the idea of Hero Action Points ...... In a sense they were a form of xp that the players earned and spent to improve the story, not their characters.

Can I quote you on that?

 

And I think linking them to some kind of Action Points rather than the current system could be just the reform that Complications need...

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes that I just DID

[Old Man]

Mind if I ask you... what's wrong with healing (and as regards to the hit location and bleeding rules)?

AIUI healing is defined and costed for superheroic, which is fine. But if you're playing a heroic game with the above optional rules, it becomes very unclear how healing should work. Does my healing spell work once per wound or per person? Cumulatively or not? Or can I just keep trying per wound until I get the maximum allowable on the dice? What about non-localized wounds like large burns, or poison? Does my 1d6 of Healing stop all the bleeding from Balabanto's severed arm?

 

Right now these decisions are left up to the GM, which is sort of okay, except that it tends to break the cost/d6 balance. And of course it also means that every Fantasy Hero campaign is unique. Healing really, really matters in fantasy campaigns, and especially in Fantasy Hero which already has something of a reputation for lethality.

[Chris Goodwin]

I am saying that no one should use them. Roleplaying is supposed to be a social activity. There are good rolls and there are bad rolls. The price of playing the game is that there has to be failure as well as success. I get that games are supposed to be fun and people are supposed to feel effective. I get that. But...

 

The problem with Heroic Action points is that it fills the game with "win" and doesn't carry with it any risk. Heroic Action Points, and what they teach, is poor sportsmanship. Like any game, be it football, basketball, D+D, Champions, or what have you, at the end of the game, you should be able to get up from the table and shake hands with the person on the other side, and say "You played a great game." It isn't that someone has to win and that someone has to lose. It's that if the same person always loses, the social value of the concept of playing a game is devalued.

 

And that's why I don't like Heroic Action Points. It takes away from the concept of actually mastering playing the game.

 

You don't like them, so no one should use them.  Is this a correct paraphrase of your point?  

[Tasha]

Can I quote you on that?

 

And I think linking them to some kind of Action Points rather than the current system could be just the reform that Complications need...

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes that I just DID

 

I think that Complications should double dip. They should give people some extra points at character gen. Also they should be used as a way to impel Action Point acquisition (or spent to veto an invoking of a PC's Complication).

 

Using Action points is a way to allow the Players to be able to add stuff to the adventure and otherwise modify the adventure. This is the cutting edge of roleplaying games. For the GM to give up some of their power and to give it to the Players. So actually trust the Players with running parts of the adventure and to allow players more agency to change the way the adventure plays out. IMHO this is something that Hero should embrace. This does mean that us older GM's will need to look at how we approach running a game. We need to be used to handling more player Agency and keep the Action points flowing, both encouraging players to spend them and to keep awarding them for good play.

[bigbywolfe]

I am saying that no one should use them. Roleplaying is supposed to be a social activity. There are good rolls and there are bad rolls. The price of playing the game is that there has to be failure as well as success. I get that games are supposed to be fun and people are supposed to feel effective. I get that. But...

 

The problem with Heroic Action points is that it fills the game with "win" and doesn't carry with it any risk. Heroic Action Points, and what they teach, is poor sportsmanship. Like any game, be it football, basketball, D+D, Champions, or what have you, at the end of the game, you should be able to get up from the table and shake hands with the person on the other side, and say "You played a great game." It isn't that someone has to win and that someone has to lose. It's that if the same person always loses, the social value of the concept of playing a game is devalued.

 

And that's why I don't like Heroic Action Points. It takes away from the concept of actually mastering playing the game.

By this standard being a min-maxing, argumentative, rules-lawyer is fine for what you yourself call a "social activity", but a mutually agreed upon mechanic which can add resource management as an extra dimension of strategy and which is currently popular and used in literally dozens of systems is not.  Yeah, that's totally objective and makes perfect sense.  All games (or gamers) that use any type of resource points are obviously having badwrongfun and the GM is supposed try to "win". 

[Stacie.Winters]

Well, what are the most common complaints about this game that could be dealt with so if there ever were a 7th edition that edition could address these complaints?

 

My own biggest complaint is the encyclopedic nature of how these games are both presented and how they read. Yes it's an amazing toolkit, but the time it requires a person to study it... well for some people it's like studying for a class in school and the looks of them are just very 1980s-like. Even 6th edition, with its full color shineyness... well at least that one looked updated to be like it's from the 1990s in presentation and style... to me at least.

 

So even if 7th Edition kept the rules as is with but a few tweaks... if it was rewritten from the ground up, given a much needed facelift in both presentation and definitely a different style PLUS it was combined with an actual world/campaign setting that really showed off the system than that would probably be a good thing.

 

And consider replacing Champions with a different setting. Something different and not a near carbon copy of the Marvel-verse yet obviously in the supers genre.

 

Maybe this is a game that could do with two different core game systems... one for Heroic power levels and one for Superheroic power levels. Like the person above answered me with the Healing breakdown... it works for Supers games, but not really good for lower level Heroic games.

[mallet]

Can I quote you on that?

 

And I think linking them to some kind of Action Points rather than the current system could be just the reform that Complications need...

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes that I just DID

 

For sure. 

[Tasha]

At this point changing the CU is a ship that has completely Sailed. Esp since I don't think they have that much control over it anymore. Having Licenced the heck out of the CU to Cryptic Studios for the Champions Online game. I think that Cryptic/Perfect World have veto rights over changes to that IP.

 

[NuSoardGraphite]

1. Will there ever be a 7th edition of Hero System?

 

Of course, eventually.

 

 

2. If there is, should the system move towards simplification and less complexity, or towards extending the modularity introduced in 6th?

 

Simpler.  I think it should roll back to something akin to the 5th edition. (NOT the 5th Rev, which is where it started becoming too complex)

 

 

3. Are there any glaring "legacy" mechanics from previous editions crying out for revamping and revision?

 

No.  The "legacy mechanics" from the 5th edition were essentially perfect.  They didn't need revision, which is why I don't play 6th.

 

 

4. Should the product be less "generic" and more oriented towards specific settings?

 

No.  The basic Hero System should remain generic.  Specific settings books released can have specialized rules within them for use with that specific setting, but for the most part should fall within the confines of the general system.  For example, a Fantasy campaign setting could include a Mana characteristic for characters and customize the powers for use as certain types of spells.  That kind of thing is fine, but for the most part, the settings should incorporate the Hero rules, not the other way around.

 

 

5. Should there be more characteristics? Fewer? About the same number? What about rules for optional stats?

 

As per the 4th and 5th editions.  Same Characteristics there.  Re-couple secondary characteristics.  Bring back Comliness.  leave open room for optional stats as needed.  Campaign setting books should have no problem adding new Characteristics as necessary.

 

 

6. Should complications be revamped, or even removed/made optional? Should power limitations and complications be merged, at least in some instances?

 

Nope.  Current system is fine.  Although I wouldn't mind some clarification on using Disads/Complications as Limitations.

 

 

7. Should costing be simplified? Should costing for advantages and limitations be made more granular(i.e., +/- 0.1)?

 

No.  Current system is fine.  A little math never hurt anybody.

 

 

 

 

That's enough for now.

 

Okay then.

[Greywind]

I thought Cryptic bought it and HeroDOJ has the license for the PnP?

[NuSoardGraphite]

At this point changing the CU is a ship that has completely Sailed. Esp since I don't think they have that much control over it anymore. Having Licenced the heck out of the CU to Cryptic Studios for the Champions Online game. I think that Cryptic/Perfect World have veto rights over changes to that IP.

 

 

Like all good comic book properties, there comes a time for a complete universe overhaul.  This may be one of those times.

[mhd]

As long as said overhaul isn't done by Mark Millar...

[IndianaJoe3]

I thought Cryptic bought it and HeroDOJ has the license for the PnP?

 

That is correct. I did ask Steve Long (in a Stvechat, long ago) if DoJ/Hero could publish and/or create superhero IP unconnected to the CU. He said they could, but expressed disinterest in the idea. OTOH, with the current Hero System license, anyone could create a, "Champions" product.

[carmachu]

How does one appeal exactly to new players? That requires going out to more then just this forum or facebook. I don't see that really happening. There is an old saying of "Don't trample old friends in your rush to make new ones." One could look to fuzion system back at the end of 3rd and move to 4th and see how that happened(or perceived to have happened).

How would you appeal to new players? Rules alone don't bring new players.

[Sam On Maui]

I'd like HERO Basic to have everything that HERO has except for the massive power creation rules. Include pre-made items, weapons, armor, vehicles, etc, but leave the full creation rules for the full/advanced game. So, HERO can sell the advance rules, or supplements with more pre-fan stuff like super powers, magic, critters, etc.

 

I mean, really, th basic rules are pretty easy. Its the creation stuff that adds to the bulk of the game and scares people off, IMO. And they're not strictly necessary for many genres!