jedi counterparts

[bubba smith]

pardon me if I have asked this before but what templates would you use for a jedi or sith equivalent          ?

[Vondy]

The Chinese Knight or Ancient Master templates from UMA with lightsaber combat for the martial arts could work.

 

I'm a fan of stripping concepts down to their strict necessities and then adding a few things for leaven.

[bubba smith]

good idea thanks

[Christopher]

I would not use any templates.

Templates are the tools of heroic scale games. In my book Jedi and Sith are clearly on the Superheroic level. As are most characters that fight with them or agaisnt them (Boba Fett, Han, Leia). Trying to fit the power of a Force user into a heroic level game will only work with high point levels and/or massive cost reductions for the powers.

[Tasha]

Templates are still a good starting point to build characters. Also having martial arts styles makes sense.

I have played Jedi at the Heroic Scale and you are right they don't really work at the 175 6e point level. They tend to work better at about 225-250pts. That also allows the non jedi the points to pick up enough combat luck to compete.

I have also played with them at the Superheroic level. That works too.

[NuSoardGraphite]

In 5th edition, they worked just fine at the 150pt scale, provided you do The Force as a multi-power. if everyone else is at the level of a competent normal, it works out perfectly.

[Tasha]

It depends on if you are building a Jedi Warrior or Jedi Consular. Some Jedi powers seem to work ok in a MP, but others really need to be used at the same time as other powers. Which is where the powers get so expensive. So in our SW game the Jedi Warrior seemed to work pretty well with all of his powers in the MP. My Consular didn't feel right and was very constrained by the MP.

[NuSoardGraphite]

It depends on if you are building a Jedi Warrior or Jedi Consular. Some Jedi powers seem to work ok in a MP, but others really need to be used at the same time as other powers. Which is where the powers get so expensive. So in our SW game the Jedi Warrior seemed to work pretty well with all of his powers in the MP. My Consular didn't feel right and was very constrained by the MP.

That's not at all an issue when using the multipower method. just make your pool bigger while limiting the active points of the individual slots. if your pool is 100 points and your slots are limited to 30 points, you could have three powers going at once and a 4th one going at 10 active points. (If any are variable)

 

This is what i love about multipowers. you can always make the pool bigger without touching the active points of the individual slots and thus continue to become "more powerful" without disrupting the scale of power in the campaign setting.

[Cantriped]

->NuSoardGraphite

 

That depends on how harsh your GM is about the Active Point limits of their campaign. Technically speaking, a 100-point Multipower is still a 100 Active Point "Power"; even if every slot purchased within it is only 20 AP.

[NuSoardGraphite]

->NuSoardGraphite

 

That depends on how harsh your GM is about the Active Point limits of their campaign. Technically speaking, a 100-point Multipower is still a 100 Active Point "Power"; even if every slot purchased within it is only 20 AP.

No it isn't.  That's an appropriate viewpoint for a Variable Power Pool, but not for a Multi-power.  In a multipower, the pool points just dictate how much power is available to spread around.  The active point limits are based on the individual slots, and if those are limited, it doesn't matter if you have 300 points in you multi-power, that 60 Active Point Energy Blast slot can never do more than 12D6 until you raise the maximum of the slot itself.  Multi-powers are perfect power regulators in the game.  

[薔薇語]

No it isn't.  That's an appropriate viewpoint for a Variable Power Pool, but not for a Multi-power.  In a multipower, the pool points just dictate how much power is available to spread around.  The active point limits are based on the individual slots, and if those are limited, it doesn't matter if you have 300 points in you multi-power, that 60 Active Point Energy Blast slot can never do more than 12D6 until you raise the maximum of the slot itself.  Multi-powers are perfect power regulators in the game.  

 

No. It depends on the GM. And I am inclined to say that if I have a 75 AP cap then any MP can only hit that 75 pt cap, too. Indeed, I have never played in a game with A.P. caps that didn't limit a MP to the same cap.

 

La Rose. 

[pinecone]

I have, though, I expect it is on the rare side. I don't remember any "issues" comming up.

[Cantriped]

->NuSoardGraphite

 

EDIT: My Apologies; The Argument Below Is Only Applicable To The 6th Ed Core Rules (see HERO System 6th Edition, Volume 1; pg. 405), Champions Complete closed this Loophole (see CC; pg. 122). I usually prefer CC rulings over HS6thV1.

 

The Reserve of a Multipower is an Active Point limitation as well as a limitation on the number of powers usable simultaneously; that is part of why you get such a cost break for purchasing powers through one. Ergo, any campaign with an Active Point Limit should logically also limit the reserves of power frameworks accordingly. Don't forget that any advantages applied to a Multipower are inherited by it's slots for free! 

Under your assumption, a player could easily bypass your campaign's Active Point Cap by purchasing a low-reserve Multipower with several generically useful advantages, making a character neigh unbeatable by anyone who isn't also min-maxing in the same way. 

 

For Example:

Lets say the "Active Point Cap" is 60, as this is a common number for Superheroic Games and allows enough points to achieve most thematic effects.

 

Stave of Min-Maxing: 60-point Multipower Reserve, All Slots; Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Difficult To Dispel (x4 Active Points For Dispelling; +1/2) (120 Active Points); All Slots; OAF (Magical Stave; -1). Total Cost: 60 Points.

   1) Variable Slot: 12d6 Blast vs. ED (60 Active Points). Total Cost: 6 Points. (Costs 0 Endurance to use and requires you beat 240 Active Points to dispel, an impossible threshold to achieve with 20d6 Dispel Blast [60 Active Points])

   2) Variable Slot: Flight 60m (60 Active Points). Total Cost: 6 Points. (As Above)

   3) Fixed Slot: Desolidification (Affected by Heat and Flames) (40 Active Points). Total Cost 2 Points. (Costs 0 Endurance, requires you beat 160 Active Points to Dispel, Still Impossible to Dispel within the boundaries of 60 AP)

   4) Fixed Slot: Affects Physical World (+2) For Up To 10 Active Points of Strength (20 Active Points). Total Cost: 2 Points (Costs 0 Endurance, requires you beat 80 Active Points to Dispel, NOT Impossible to Dispel within the boundaries of 60 AP, but still above your average rolls, assuming anybody would ever purchase Dispel Strength or Dispel Naked Advantage)

Total Cost of Framework: 76 Points.

 

Naturally, somebody could purchase a Dispel with the Cumulative advantage in order to allow them to eventually turn off one of the powers above, but considering the contents of the framework, slot 1 is not worth even trying to dispel, the Blast will hit you before you build up to the threshold, and the previous dispel casting won't benefit you against the next activation, and as for slots 2 and 3, aborting to reactivate them is a small price to pay for not falling to one's death or being turned into Superheroic Meat-Paste. Slot 4 only exists to let you pick up clues, whoop-dee-do, I've gotta pick it back up after you've dispelled my pseudo-solidification.

 

Note: If you purchase a 120 AP Multipower, and apply those advantages to the Slots instead of the reserve, the cost rises from 76 points to 92 points. So not only to I completely break the balance of your campaign, but I saved 16 points by doing it; which I'm sure is not the intent of an Active Point Cap. All of this being said, I don't use Active Point Cap in my campaigns, and haven't noticed any real game-balance issues regarding it.

[Cantriped]

Meanwhile, Back On Topic.

I wrote a Jedi/Sith Package for my own purposes last night. I'm not that familiar with the Star-Wars Universe so I had to rely on online resources, memory and common sense. And some of the game elements were built according to my own interpretation of the concept, as opposed to what is or isn't Cannon. 

 

Cost      Game Elements

Jadi/Sith Basic Training - END=

44         1)  Jedi/Sith Fitness: Life Support  (Eating: Character only has to eat once per week; Extended Breathing: 1 END per Minute; Immunity: All terrestrial diseases; Longevity: 200 Years; Sleeping: Character only has to sleep 8 hours per week) (Real Cost: 10) plus +2 SPD (Real Cost: 20) plus +5 EGO (Real Cost: 5) plus +5 CON (Real Cost: 5) plus +2 PD (Real Cost: 2) plus +2 ED (Real Cost: 2)

3           2)  Bugging (Eavesdropping) (Standard) 11-

3           3)  Combat Piloting (Standard) 11-

3           4)  Deduction (Standard) 11-

3           5)  Fast Draw (Standard) 11-

3           6)  Feint (Standard) 11-

2           7)  Knowledge: History of the Force (Standard) 11-

3           8)  Paramedics (Healing) (Standard) 11-

3           9)  Tactics (Standard) 11-

3         10) Teamwork (Standard) 11-

5         11) Lightning Reflexes (+5 DEX to act first with All Actions)

6         12) +2 with Deduction, Tactics, and Teamwork

9         13) +3 with a Jedi/Sith Lightsaber (As 3-point CSLs)

9         14) +3 with all modes of Movement

10       15) +2 with Force Manipulation (as 5-point CSLs)

10       16) +2 with a Jedi/Sith Swordsmanship (as 5-point CSLs)

 

41 Jedi/Sith Lightsaber: Multipower, 123-point reserve,  (123 Active Points); all slots OAF (Usable By Jedi/Sith Only; -1), Side Effects (Causes Steam-Explosion if Submerdged in Water | 3d6 Killing Damage vs ED, Penetrating, Area of Effect [8m Radius]; -1/2), Cannot Be Pushed (-1/4), Restrainable (By Exposure To A Hard Vacuum, or a Strong Magnetic Field; -1/4)

3f         1)  HKA vs. ED 4d6, Penetrating (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (120 Active Points); OAF (Usable By Jedi/Sith Only; -1), No STR Bonus (-1/2), -2 Decreased STUN Multiplier (-1/2), No Knockback (-1/4) plus Stretching 2m, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (3 Active Points); Only To Cause Damage (-1/2), No Noncombat Stretching (-1/4), Always Direct (-1/4)

3f         2)  Reflection (120 Active Points' worth), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (120 Active Points); Only Works Against Thermal and Electrical Attacks (-1/2)

1f         3)  Deflection, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (30 Active Points); No Range (-1/2), Only Works Against Thermal & Electrical Attacks (-1/2)

 

25         Force Endurance Pool: Endurance Reserve  (60 END, 15 REC) (25 Active Points)

4           Force Step: Clinging (normal STR), Draws END From Force Endurance Pool (+0) (10 Active Points); Concentration,  (1/2 DCV; Throughout; -1/2), Costs Endurance (-1/2), Cannot Resist Knockback (-1/4)

 

90         Force Manipulation: Multipower, 90-point reserve, all slots Draws END From Force Endurance Pool (+0)

4f          1)  Force Acceleration: Aid 6d6 (standard effect: 18 points), Variable Effect (Running, Leaping, Or Swimming, One At A Time; +1/4), Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), Time Limit (5 Minutes; +1) (90 Active Points); Only to Aid Self (-1)

5f          2)  Force Protection: Force Manipulation Damage Reduction, Resistant, 75%, Time Limit (1 Minute; +1/2) (90 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x2 END; -1/2), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4)

4f          3)  Force Redirection: Reflection (90 Active Points' worth), Alternate Combat Value (OMCV vs. DCV; +0), Any Target (+1/2) (90 Active Points); Only Works Against Force Manipulation (-1/2), Increased Endurance Cost (x2 END; -1/2)

4f          4)  Force Lightning I: RKA vs. ED 3d6, Alternate Combat Value (OMCV vs. DCV; +0), Double Knockback (+1/2), Area Of Effect (15m Cone; +1/2), Selective (+1/4), Thin Cone (-1/4) (90 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x2 END; -1/2), No Range (-1/2), Does Not Leave Holes (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4)

4f          5)  Force Lightning II: RKA vs. ED 2d6, Alternate Combat Value (OMCV vs. DCV; +0), Double Knockback (+1/2), Area Of Effect (125m Cone; +1 1/4), Selective (+1/4) (90 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x2 END; -1/2), No Range (-1/2), Does Not Leave Holes (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4)

8f          6)  Force Push/Pull I: Telekinesis (30 STR), Fine Manipulation, Alternate Combat Value (OMCV vs. DCV; +0), Line Of Sight (+1/2) (82 Active Points)

5f          7)  Force Push/Pull II: Telekinesis (20 STR), Alterable Size, Alternate Combat Value (OMCV vs. DCV; +0), Area Of Effect (120m Cone; +1 1/4) (79 Active Points); No Range (-1/2)

5f          8)  Force Apparitions I: Mental Illusions 8d6, Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), Constant (+1/2), Cumulative (48 points; +1/2) (90 Active Points); Concentration,  (1/2 DCV; Throughout; -1/2), Does Not Work On Machine Class Minds (-1/4)

5f          9)  Force Apparitions II: Mental Illusions 4d6, Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Constant (+1/2), Cumulative (48 points; +3/4), Area Of Effect (250m Radius; +1 3/4) (90 Active Points); Concentration,  (1/2 DCV; Throughout; -1/2), Does Not Work On Machine Class Minds (-1/4)

2f        10) Force Concealment: Invisibility to Sight, Hearing, Smell/Taste and Mental Groups , Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (44 Active Points); Only When Not Attacking (-1/2), Concentration,  (1/2 DCV; Throughout; -1/2), Does Not Work On Machine Class Minds (-1/4) - END=1

4f        11) Force Masquerade: Shape Shift  (Sight, Hearing, Smell/Taste and Mental Groups, any shape), Imitation, Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), Difficult To Dispel (x2 Active Points; +1/4) (55 Active Points); Does Not Work On Machine Class Minds (-1/4), Concentration (1/2 DCV; To Activate; -1/4)

3f        12) Force Mind Twist: Mind Control 5d6, Dismissable, Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), Armor Piercing (+1/4), Constant (+1/2), Cumulative (120 points; +1) (90 Active Points); Mandatory Effect EGO +20 (Must Always Achieve "Target Will Remember Actions, But Think They Were Natural; -3/4), Eye Contact Required (-1/2), Concentration,  (1/2 DCV; Throughout; -1/2), Does Not Work On Machine Class Minds (-1/4)

1f        13) Force Phasing: Desolidification  (affected by Force Manipulation Powers) (40 Active Points); Extra Time (Extra Phase, -3/4), Increased Endurance Cost (x2 END; -1/2), Concentration,  (1/2 DCV; Throughout; -1/2)

1f        14) Curato Salva: Healing 1d6+1, Constant (+1/2), Any One Characteristic At A Time (+1/2), Decreased Re-use Duration (1 Turn; +1 1/2) (45 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Turn, -1 1/4), Self Only (-1), Concentration,  (1/2 DCV; Throughout; -1/2)

7f        15) Tutaminis (Force Diffusion): Absorption 30 BODY  (Force Manipulation Attacks, To Force Endurance Pool), Absorption As A Defense (Resistant; +1), Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Minute; +1) (90 Active Points); Costs Half Endurance (-1/4)

 

Powers Total: 348

 

Cost Martial Arts

Martial Arts:  Jedi/Sith Swordsmanship

1          1)  Weapon Element:  Empty Hand, Jedi/Sith Lightsaber

5          2)  Passing Strike:       1/2 Phase,   +1 OCV,   +0 DCV,    Weapon +4 DC +v/10; FMove

5          3)  Flying Dodge:         1/2 Phase,   -- OCV,     +4 DCV,    Dodge All Attacks, Abort; FMove

4          4)  Martial Strike:         1/2 Phase,   +0 OCV,   +2 DCV,    Weapon +6 DC Strike

5          5)  Defensive Strike:    1/2 Phase,   +1 OCV,   +3 DCV,    Weapon +4 DC Strike

4          6)  Martial Dodge:        1/2 Phase,   -- OCV,    +5 DCV,    Dodge, Affects All Attacks, Abort

4          7)  Martial Disarm:       1/2 Phase,   -1 OCV,    +1 DCV,    Disarm; 40 STR to Disarm roll

4          8)  Martial Block:          1/2 Phase,   +2 OCV,   +2 DCV,    Block, Abort

4          9)  Counterstrike:         1/2 Phase,   +2 OCV,   +2 DCV,    Weapon +6 DC Strike, Must Follow Block

16        10) +4 HTH Damage Class(es)

 

Martial Arts Total: 52

 

Total Package Cost: 400

[NuSoardGraphite]

 

->NuSoardGraphite

 

EDIT: My Apologies; The Argument Below Is Only Applicable To The 6th Ed Core Rules (see HERO System 6th Edition, Volume 1; pg. 405), Champions Complete closed this Loophole (see CC; pg. 122). I usually prefer CC rulings over HS6thV1.

 

The Reserve of a Multipower is an Active Point limitation as well as a limitation on the number of powers usable simultaneously; that is part of why you get such a cost break for purchasing powers through one. Ergo, any campaign with an Active Point Limit should logically also limit the reserves of power frameworks accordingly. Don't forget that any advantages applied to a Multipower are inherited by it's slots for free! 

Under your assumption, a player could easily bypass your campaign's Active Point Cap by purchasing a low-reserve Multipower with several generically useful advantages, making a character neigh unbeatable by anyone who isn't also min-maxing in the same way. 

 

For Example:

Lets say the "Active Point Cap" is 60, as this is a common number for Superheroic Games and allows enough points to achieve most thematic effects.

 

Stave of Min-Maxing: 60-point Multipower Reserve, All Slots; Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Difficult To Dispel (x4 Active Points For Dispelling; +1/2) (120 Active Points); All Slots; OAF (Magical Stave; -1). Total Cost: 60 Points.

   1) Variable Slot: 12d6 Blast vs. ED (60 Active Points). Total Cost: 6 Points. (Costs 0 Endurance to use and requires you beat 240 Active Points to dispel, an impossible threshold to achieve with 20d6 Dispel Blast [60 Active Points])

   2) Variable Slot: Flight 60m (60 Active Points). Total Cost: 6 Points. (As Above)

   3) Fixed Slot: Desolidification (Affected by Heat and Flames) (40 Active Points). Total Cost 2 Points. (Costs 0 Endurance, requires you beat 160 Active Points to Dispel, Still Impossible to Dispel within the boundaries of 60 AP)

   4) Fixed Slot: Affects Physical World (+2) For Up To 10 Active Points of Strength (20 Active Points). Total Cost: 2 Points (Costs 0 Endurance, requires you beat 80 Active Points to Dispel, NOT Impossible to Dispel within the boundaries of 60 AP, but still above your average rolls, assuming anybody would ever purchase Dispel Strength or Dispel Naked Advantage)

Total Cost of Framework: 76 Points.

 

Naturally, somebody could purchase a Dispel with the Cumulative advantage in order to allow them to eventually turn off one of the powers above, but considering the contents of the framework, slot 1 is not worth even trying to dispel, the Blast will hit you before you build up to the threshold, and the previous dispel casting won't benefit you against the next activation, and as for slots 2 and 3, aborting to reactivate them is a small price to pay for not falling to one's death or being turned into Superheroic Meat-Paste. Slot 4 only exists to let you pick up clues, whoop-dee-do, I've gotta pick it back up after you've dispelled my pseudo-solidification.

 

Note: If you purchase a 120 AP Multipower, and apply those advantages to the Slots instead of the reserve, the cost rises from 76 points to 92 points. So not only to I completely break the balance of your campaign, but I saved 16 points by doing it; which I'm sure is not the intent of an Active Point Cap. All of this being said, I don't use Active Point Cap in my campaigns, and haven't noticed any real game-balance issues regarding it.

 

I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying.  And may be misunderstanding the full capability of a Multipower.

 

I'm not as familiar with the 6th edition as I am with the 4th and 5th editions of the game, but originally a Multipower is simply a pool of points that can be spread around a specific list of Powers (which are a part of the Multipower) which ultimately limits how many powers you can have going at once and how powerful they can be while doing so.

 

You can have a 120 points Multipower reserve and limit your slots to 60 active points each.  What this does is it allows you to have TWO powers going at once at 60 AP each, or 3 powers going at 40 Active Points each, or 4 powers going at 30 AP each or any combination of Active Points up to a maximum of 60AP per slot and the total not to exceed 120 Active Points worth of powers going all at once.

 

If the GM has determined that 60 active points is your AP limit for the campaign, you can still put points into the Multipower pool reserve as long as you don't increase the real cost of the slots to increase their Active Point limit.  This has been the case since at least the 4th edition (not as familiar with 3rd) and carried over to the 5th edition.  Looking at the 6th edition, it seems to be the same.  Although now I see where you get your perspective from.  It's the same as the examples in the book.  Locked in at 60 active points (or thereabouts) and only assuming that 1 power will be active at once.  A multipower doesn't need to be limited in that way.  They can be configured to have multiple powers going at various levels as long as the total amount of Active Points do not exceed the Reserve points.

 

Example: 

 

After having been trained by Yoda, Luke's latent Force abilities begin to blossom.  He's a Skywalker, and as such he shows vast potential, but he is far from attaining his true powers.  Yoda teaches Luke to use The Force to augment his physical capabilities as well as how to use The Force to manipulate objects at a distance and how to call upon The Force to aid his movement.  Luke buys his Force Multipower at 60 points in the reserve.  There is a Requires Skill Roll limitation (-1/2) and a Side Effect limitation (-1/2) applied to the Reserve.  This makes the real cost of the Reserve at 30 points.  His slots look like this:

 

1: Physical Augmentation: 2D6 Aid (20) Variable Effect: any physical power 1 at a time (+1/2) [Note Augments STR. DEX and SPD] 30 Active Points

Real cost: 15.  Variable Slot: Total cost: 3pts

 

2: Telekinesis: up to 20 STR.  30 Active Points.  Real Cost: 15pts.  Variable Slot.  Total cost: 3pts

 

3: Force running and leaping: 2D6 Aid (20) Expanded effect: both powers same time (+1/2) 30 Active Points

Real cost: 15pts.  Variable slot.  Total cost: 3pts.

 

With this power, Luke shows much potential (60 Active Point Reserve) but his abilities are no more powerful than an Old Republic Padawan (30 active point slots)  He can have his Physical Augmentation and Force Running powers at full, going at the same time, but he can't do TK while this is happening.  Or, he can put 30 points into his Physical Augmentation, 15 points into his TK (STR 10, enough to lift a Stormtrooper) and 15 points into his Force running power (1D6 Aid)  Or any combination thereof, as long as the total APs do not exceed the points in the Reserve (60pts)

 

Later, once Luke becomes a Jedi Master himself, through experience Luke has increased his Reserve to 120 points!  He now possesses a plethora of Force Abilities, the majority of which are limited to 60 Active points. (GM imposed campaign limit) and thus he can have two of his powers going at "full steam" simultaneously, or he can break up his Reserve points to maintain several powers as needed.

 

Is that how you see Multipowers working?  That's how i've always done them and why I think they are perfect for simulating things such as a Wizards spell list or a Jedi's Force powers.

[Cantriped]

The Stave of Min-Maxing as I've built it allows any of it's slots to be use in almost any combination (assuming you don't insist on using them all at Full Power).

For example:

Flight and Blast could be used together at their 6d6 Blast and 30m Flight levels respectively, and in HS6th the advantages applied to the Multipower would be inherited for free, making both powers cost 0 END, and equivalent to 60 Active-Point powers (or 120 APs for the purposes of Dispel), while only actually using 30-points worth of the Multipower's Reserve. If used at full power either power becomes the equivalent of 120 Active Points, completely negating any point in using an Active Point Cap on "Powers" by themselves (as you have defined them to exclude Power Frameworks)

Alternatively the character could use the above stave to become Desolidified, and still have enough points left over for the Naked Advantage to Strength, Up to 20m of Flight, 4d6 of Blast, or 10m of Flight and 2d6 Blast simultaneously.

 

 

Most of my experience as a player was with 5th and 5th Revised, I now GM Champions Complete (6.5...6th Revised? Anyway...). Champions Complete doesn't support Active Point Caps that I can find reference to. However on page 271 of HS6th V2 the topic is given a fairly exhaustive treatment, and indicates that nearly any Game Element (such as skills, characteristics, powers, and by extension I am assuming power frameworks as well although it is not specifically mentioned anywhere) can be subject to an Active Point or an Effectiveness Ceiling.

If applied universally, you would total the Control and Reserve costs of VPPs for the purposes of determining when they hit the campaigns AP/Effectiveness Ceiling, as well as Reserve plus Advantages for Multipowers; preventing the player from abusing Power Frameworks to circumvent the Active Point Cap.

 

From a purely mathematical, power-gaming perspective there is very little reason to intentionally purchase a power with fewer Active Points than your Reserve allows unless the power practically has to go into a Fixed Slot (Desolidification, or Invisibility for example). The primary cost of the Framework is in the reserve itself, and even if all of the powers share all of the same limitations (An unlikely feat if building your framework to represent a specific existing concept such as Jedi & Sith, or the Lantern Corps instead of just making a cost effective build), it doesn't break even for the character until they have purchased more Active Points worth of powers through their Multipower than the Framework has Reserve Points. Otherwise you are just paying more than it would have cost you to buy the powers separately. For example, you only saved your example Luke 4 points by purchasing the three slots described above through the Multipower described above, if there were only two slots it would have cost more than purchasing those powers separately, and if there were more than three slots the savings would have quickly grown. The cost of purchasing Luke's powers at 60 AP would have been 48 within the Multipower, or 90 without it, so for the price of +9 points your save +38 points over purchasing the three powers separately. 

[pinecone]

Not much to add, but in reference to NSG's example, a hidden value with a Multi-power is future growth. Even though the build saves little to nothing Now. Exp can be spent to add lots of additional powers, because you only need to spend enough to add a slot.

 

This can make some concepts much easier to play/build because you can reach your "full potential" in a reasonable amount of time.

 

In general I am very leery of any arguments of "this is potentially bothersome, so I forbid it up front" because abuse is an action, not a build. And many concepts can be put out of reach by too much prevention. In many ways 6Th went (in my eyes anyway) from the system that can do anything, to the system that has a thousand ways to say NO! And I don't see that as a positive thing at all...

[Cantriped]

You make a very fair point regarding the "hidden value" of the Multipower Pinecone, the Luke from NSG's example could very inexpensively fill out their powerset by spending 9 CP expanding the Multipower slots over spending 38 points purchasing powers separately, with each additional slot/power costing 3-6 CP instead of about 30 CP each.

 

I'm not exactly sure where your impression of 6th edition's change from a system "that can to anything" to a system that "has a thousand ways to say NO!" stems from, but it seems to be a common impression here on the forums. Looking at the document "Converting Old Characters To Champions Complete", which also includes summaries of changes made between First through Sixth, there are a few things I miss about previous editions (Transfer for Example) and a few things I wish they hadn't added (Like Damage Negation). However I fail to detect how any of theses changes would make something I've built before impossible to represent or how the rules are any less permissive than before. I can still pretty closely, if not very accurately represent any and every character I've ever seen described or imagined myself, and there are still enough different ways do to so that no two GMs are ever likely to agree on which method is the best. HERO System is still the Ultimate Gamer's Toolkit in my mind, even if the names of a few of the tools have changed a little.

[pinecone]

Well, I've started bumping into several GMs who start out "Nobody can use X" Because it's so wrong/abusive/evil/liberal...etc... Active caps tend in that direction as well...

 

One example (a pet peeve as it were ) is Weather control, nowadays that runs off of Change enviro, reasonable enough...but wait! Lets tack on a load of mandatory mods that make basic "cool" weather control run 90+ points. Toss in some lims, and it's (barely) affordable, but that exceeds the Cap! So NO to something that is more window dressing than game busting. It's an experience I have over and over.

 

This thread is almost an example. A suggestion of having a reserve be large is met with disagreements based on how it "could" be abused, not how it Is broken. It's not a matter of the rules stopping you it's the No's that ring out none the less...CC seems like a step in the right direction. I've read parts of 6Th, and it seems chocka- block with long passages of how this way is "right" and any other is "wrong".

 

The current group I've just met. They seem like cool guys, but within 10 mins I got a story about how Damage Reduction is so broken, and should never be allowed, and you should just buy more defense. I disagree with the conclusion, and can express my disagreements just fine. But I certainly perceive a "culture of NO" .

 

Disclaimer: I really like DR, and use it all the time. I find excessive defenses to be far more troublesome in play.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Given that the warrior/consular distinction is not in the movies, you could probably do away with that in your game if you wanted without any problem.  A multipower goes a long ways I agree, and if you look at the use of some of their powers (outside some of the video games) the Telekinetic strength demonstrated by all but the most vastly powerful and experienced jedi (Yoda) was really quite small.

[Cantriped]

To Pinecone: 

I'm sorry your GM's have sucked Pinecone, but that has nothing to do with 6th edition as a ruleset. I disagree with almost any argument which prefaces an entire power is broken. I may intensely dislike Damage Negation for example, but I don't argue it's broken, just that it is inconsistent with other Defense Powers (in that it reduces dice of effect before they are rolled) and that it interacts nonsensically with Barriers because it was poorly written.

 

Further you do not appear to understand my point. My argument regarding Multipower reserves isn't about a large reserve with small slots, I don't care much about that, it was about how inconsistent application of Active Point Caps would encourage abuse of Multipowers by allowing some character's to circumvent the Cap but not others. I would make the same arguement

 

As for Change Environment: One of the most powerful character's in my campaign uses Change Environments to devastating effect, and they paid a lot of Active Points for those abilities.

 

The only Mandatory Modifiers that I know of is the one on Hand-to-Hand Attacks, and that's because using a lower active point value appears to have made it too CP efficient in previous edition, at least when compared to other Attack Powers (especially when purchased through Power Frameworks which always have AP limits). I've just read over Change Environment, and sure enough, it says nothing about requiring any modifiers; unless you are counting Area of Effect, which is only required if you want to hit more than a single target with the effect. If the Change were truly only "window dressing" than I don't see how you are possibly getting to 90 APs. A Change Environment that has no negative effects only ever has 1 Active Point, and even after applying Area of Effect (131,072m Radius; +4), is still only 5 active Points. If that same Window-Dressing Change Environment were Permanent after you stopped paying END, it's still only 80 AP (16 AP)x(1+4 in Advantages). And although it may not kill anybody, Changing the sky Green and the sea Orange for the rest of eternity should not be a cheap ability (unless it's a Multipower Slot, then you can totally do it at will for just 8 CP and agreeing not to do it in a Multiple Attack alongside your 16d6 Blast.

 

Causing a Blizzard on the other hand it not a cosmetic effect by any means... it involves lowering Temperature levels (which causes characters without life support suffer from reduced REC, spend 1 Long-Term END per 20 minutes, then STUN, and then BODY in turn, as per drowning, as well as increasing damage from dehydration) and raising wind levels (which apply points of TK on the target, reduce PER rolls, and OCV with Missile weapons). All of which can and should quickly become very expensive if you want to hit lots of people with it because blizzards are deadly. See HS6th v2 pages 144-146 for examples of just how awesome Change Environment can be.

 

To Christopher:

 

With rare exception I feel 90 AP is a good limit for Jedi/Sith abilities, with most Jedi only having 30-60 AP frameworks. The rare examples which surpass this could be explained through Pushing, or the character having purchased a compound component for which ever power in the Framework they have that is stronger than the reserve allows; or an Aid/Boost for their Force Manipulation Framework and one or more slots simultaneously. Also, if your character has the points to spare my package could be made much more Consular like simply by making most of the powers without fixed costs Variable Slots.

[pinecone]

"Weather control" Change enviro, Buncha stuff, mostly Temp levels, then is there not a required variable results mod you need? It used to be that way... Add in Long lasting, then trim with lims like progressive etc...lots of points. And the "OP"? People can freeze to death in several minutes to several hours. Massive true, but how many combats/ action scenes last that long? What is the game effect of changing the color of the sky?

 

That reminds me of the explaination of why Eidetic memory cost 10 points "Because that is really Awesome" (paraphrased a bit I fear) It looks to be a much nicer 5 points in CC.  But Why is it nessisary to charge 80 to 100 points for the ability to change the color of the sky? I just don't see it. And a great many games run active caps, and that puts CE powers off the table in many (too many in my opinion) cases.

 

But this seems a mite off the topic, so I'm going to handle this a different way...

[Cantriped]

First off, I want you to know that I hate Active Point Limits in campaigns, especially when used as a Hard and Fast Rule. However they do have their purposes; mainly to ensure all members of a table have roughly equivalent attacks and defenses. I have played in many campaigns which used them, but I don't use them myself except as a general guideline. The aforementioned player with the powerful Change Environment also has a 200+ Active Point, Usable As Attack Teleport (Gate), which frankly isn't worth a quarter of it's active points, though it is a nice ability. Remember that Active Point Limits are not a standard rule, they are simply the most common optional rule described in the books, but not more required than the optional Combat Rules (like "Ground Fighting" and "Guarding Areas and Ignoring Opponents") or Characteristic-Based Proficiency and Familiarity Skills. In the same breath which HS6th talks about Active Point Limits and Effectiveness Ceilings, it includes clauses regarding making exceptions to the Cap for a character's "Main-Shtick" or for powers with higher active points than their effectiveness would indicate. You should remind your GMs of this fact so they have the option to stop ruining your enjoyment of the game.

 

Second, the value of a thing isn't based just on how useful it is in a typical combat, or Cosmetic Transforms and Life Support (Immortality) wouldn't still exist as powers, and most of the Skills and Perks in the game wouldn't exist either.

 

In Champions Complete (page 53) there is a "Varying Combat Effects" Adder, but what it does is allow you to rearrange the effects of your change environment instead of having to define it at purchase (Flip the direction of a temperature change up or down, replace Temp-Levels with Wind Levels, or penalize EGO Rolls instead of generating Wind), and there is also the Varying Environment Modifier. Either of which are roughly equivalent to having a Variable Power Pool for Change Environmental. Neither is required to create a change environment power or even a suite of them if you are willing to purchase multiple CE slots in a Weather Control Multipower .

 

Change Environment can let you trigger your opponent's complications or limitations based on special effect, as well as produce effects which are impossibly expensive to represent any other way, and a fair GM would make sure the opportunity came up to use a power if they have let you pay character points for it.

 

As for the game effect of changing the color of the sky; it is that the sky is now a different color, nothing more nothing less (I'll admit it wasn't the best example I could have come up with, but it does prove you can't easily get a CE up to 90 AP unless it actually does something useful).

However, If an invading Alien armada were scanning the galaxy for a small blue planet they were told to invade, and you can make the planet green or yellow or orange, they might pass right on by or attack the wrong planet (which is exactly the kind of plot I would run if you had that ability). If you can make the Sun produce red light than Superman could lose his powers, and if you could coat a city block in yellow paint (or a thin layer of wood) you also prevent certain era's of the Green Lantern from manipulating the environment to their advantage; all without having to actually pay for the ability to Dispel, Drain or Suppress those powers. Also, note that the CE I quoted above is only 80 AP because it affects a vast area and literally lasts forever (even after you die, the sky stays green and people eventually start telling legends about the man who recolored the sky just because he could). As opposed to a normal change environment which only lasts as long as you pay END for it. If it didn't last forever it's only worth about 2 AP to dye the sky of an earth sized planet and would cost about 1 END per phase to maintain (or be ~3 AP and 0 END if you applied Reduced END, and Persistent to it). If none of these example are ever likely to come up, than the rules of the game allow me as a GM to grant you that power at a cost of 0 CP regardless of it's Active Points. (See CC page 10: "What Not To Spend CP On").

The Active Points listed above are based upon applying Area Of Effect (2m Radius; +1/4), and Megascale (1m = 10,000 km; +2) to a Change Environment with no negative effects (worth 1 AP). Applying the modifier to let you change the color from use to use would have negligible impact on the cost at this point because of the bell-curve involved in Modifier Multiplication (the first +1 in advantages are worth as many Active Points as the subsequent +2, which are worth as much as the subsequent +4, etc)

 

Third and finally, while a Blizzard may have limited applications as a superhero, as a supervillian I could hold an entire city hostage with it rather inexpensively, -4 temperature levels (or 30 degrees fahrenheit if the area started in the comfort zone) are all I need to prevent every normal person in the city from being able to recover their END or STUN. In addition they suffer 4 points of Long Term END Damage every 20 minutes even if they stay huddled in a corner doing nothing, which means they won't be able to fight me for very long before they are burning STUN which they can't recover, and as soon as they go down they'll start burning BODY, which without a REC score to bring their STUN or END positive again means they freeze to death in about 4 hours depending upon their total BODY.

 

Spell of the City Sized Blizzard: Change Environment (-4 Temperature Levels; -1 to Sight & Hearing PER Rolls, +2 Wind Levels), Area of Effect (4m Radius; +1/4), Megascale Area (1m = 1km; +1), 0 END Cost (+1/2), Persistant (+1/4) (84 Active Points); Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4), Extra Time (1 Turn; -1 1/4). Real Cost: 28 points (3 CP if bought in a Multipower).

[薔薇語]

To echo what you just said, Katal3, anyone using AP caps without regard to the powers in question is doing a pretty bad job at GMing. It is quite easy to build a power that is hyper-effective for less than 20 AP and powers that have only marginal Utility at best for well over 100AP. AP caps are not means of controlling the extremes but at reigning in the norms. They are designed to help guide players on what will be the standards for the game. Otherwise a "brick" might not put enough in defense because he thinks the attacks will be lower or vice versa a player may short his attacks by not realizing how powerful his team mates went. It works the same way as telling everyone "This is a Golden Age campaign" or "This is a nitty gritty Iron Age campaign." 

 

And as to something like a Blizzard not being useful for a character, that is up to the GM. If one of my players sunk points into a power, especially if it was a lot of points, I would find a way for that power to shine. For example, if you are trapped in the artic with a group of people, being able to raise the temp for an extended period of time may not win the fight but it will save the day. Or being able to create counter winds to help defuse the effects of an oncoming typhoon is amazing. Heck, being able to generate a selective gravity field on a ship so that your allies can fight  normally against invaders who are forced into awkward 0 grav maneuvers is amazing.  

Artificial Gravity field:

Change Environment (+1 Points of Telekinetic STR), Costs Endurance Only To Activate (+1/4), Area Of Effect (16m Radius; +3/4), Selective (+1/4) (11 Active Points)

 

L La Rose. 

[Pegasus40218]

Well, I've started bumping into several GMs who start out "Nobody can use X" Because it's so wrong/abusive/evil/liberal...etc... Active caps tend in that direction as well...

 

One example (a pet peeve as it were ) is Weather control, nowadays that runs off of Change enviro, reasonable enough...but wait! Lets tack on a load of mandatory mods that make basic "cool" weather control run 90+ points. Toss in some lims, and it's (barely) affordable, but that exceeds the Cap! So NO to something that is more window dressing than game busting. It's an experience I have over and over.

 

This thread is almost an example. A suggestion of having a reserve be large is met with disagreements based on how it "could" be abused, not how it Is broken. It's not a matter of the rules stopping you it's the No's that ring out none the less...CC seems like a step in the right direction. I've read parts of 6Th, and it seems chocka- block with long passages of how this way is "right" and any other is "wrong".

 

The current group I've just met. They seem like cool guys, but within 10 mins I got a story about how Damage Reduction is so broken, and should never be allowed, and you should just buy more defense. I disagree with the conclusion, and can express my disagreements just fine. But I certainly perceive a "culture of NO" .

 

Disclaimer: I really like DR, and use it all the time. I find excessive defenses to be far more troublesome in play.

 

Part of the problem is probably how the gaming culture has evolved of late.  IMHO, much of the "problem" (if you will) has to do with the prevalence of computer and console RPGs and MMOs.  The VAST majority of players in those games focus on DPS -- and they tend to bring the same mentality to pen and paper games as well.  As a result, many GMs HAVE to worry about how a build can be abused, because it WILL be abused.  This is probably part of the reason why you're seeing the development of a "culture of NO".

 

I'm trying to get my current group of D&D / Pathfinder players to give HERO a try, but if I don't set limits somehow and say "no" to some builds, I'm going to wind up with PCs with 15 OCV & 15 DCV doling out 12 DCs (4D6K) in a fantasy game where the AVERAGE OCV/DCV is in the 4-6 range and average defenses will be in the 8-10 range with maybe 4-6 points of resistant defense.  If I let them, they'll all buy 5 levels of combat luck and be running around with 15 rPD/rED all the time -- next to impossible to hit, and virtually impossible to damage if you do hit them...and they'll see nothing wrong with this.  The mechanics "allow" it.

 

So, yes...I'm part of that culture of "No".  I feel like I have to be.