Should Superman's Flight be built with some form of Invisible Power Effects?

[Hyper-Man]

Superman is just one example.  There are plenty of characters in comics that do not have any extra obviousness (visible or audible) to their ability to fly. There are also plenty of examples of flying characters that ARE obvious when flying (Wings, Rockets, Repulsers, Flames, Green Glow or just a generic 'energy trail'. 

 

The question is whether a character's Flight should automatically get thrown into the second category when they don't have IPE or any Limitations that deal with obviousness?  This would only come into play when the character wants to be Stealthy while Flying.

 

From Hero System 6e1 page 228

 

Invisible Power Effects: Characters can’t hide the fact that they Fly from one location to another, but they could, for example, make their Flight silent (Invisible to Hearing Group). If a character has Flight Only In Contact With A Surface (see below), Invisible Power Effects can be bought at the +¼ level so that he doesn’t leave tracks, set off seismic alarms, or the like.

 

[Scott Baker]

IMO, yes, 

[Ndreare]

We have always assumed/used a noise level for a power equal to Active Points/10. 

So for example a power with 45 active points would grant people trying to perceive it +9 to their roll.

 

Flight is just another endurance using power, so unless you are flying very slowly (using minimum power, flapping a gently as possible) you flight is noisy.

 

So in summary IMHO Yes I agree with you and Scott Baker.

[Greywind]

Depends on what you base it on. In The Adventures of Superman (George Reeves) there was a whistling sound when he flew. Later incarnations, comics included, he's a blue and red streak when he's flying, with commensurate noise/wind whistle.

[Grailknight]

No, it shouldn't.

 

Visible Powers have to be perceivable by 2 Sense Groups. Flight is covered by Sight and Hearing.

 

In fact that's probably true for all Movement Powers.

[massey]

No more so than someone's running.

[Grailknight]

To clarify somewhat,

 

Is Tarzan's climbing visible when he's just sitting on a tree limb?  How about the Flash's running when he standing at a podium giving a speech?

[Hyper-Man]

Skip forward to 1:32

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_08w_1wSKZc

 

He's just hovering in this example.  He's not really trying to be stealthy but Lex only notices him when his guest reacts.

[massey]

How much noise do you think someone makes standing still?

 

Do you think if Superman uses his muscles that they make loud crackling sounds?

[Grailknight]

Hyper-Man,

 

In that clip, you don't hear Superman arrive because Lex has the window closed. When he flies off there is an audible whoosh. Thanks for the example

 

 Massey,

 

No, using his muscles doesn't make a sound. I'd have to go with Sight and Touch on that.

[Grailknight]

Movement Powers: Movement Powers are Inobvious.

However, when they’re in use it becomes

Obvious that the character is moving somehow,

and thus usually Obvious what sort of Movement

Power he’s using. Even when a Movement Power’s

not in use there may be Obvious manifestations

of the means of movement (for example, if a

character has wings, it’s Obvious that he can fly).

A character can buy Invisible Power Effects to, for

example, make his movement silent (Invisible to

the Hearing Group), but he can’t use that Advantage

to hide the fact that he’s moved from Point A

to Point B.

 

 

That's from 6E page 125.

 

 

HOW POWERS ARE PERCEIVED

Powers that directly affect another character,

including all attacks, are Obvious (see below). This

means they can be perceived by at least two Sense

Groups when in use. (No PER Roll is required in

most cases.) Unless the GM rules otherwise, one

of these must be the Sight Sense Group. Typically

the other is the Hearing Group. Many Powers

are also perceivable by other Sense Groups based

on the Power’s special effect (depending on the

circumstances, the GM might allow a -¼ Perceivable

Limitation for this, but usually it’s worth a -0

Limitation at best). For example, a power based

on energy could perhaps be sensed by the Radio

Sense Group; characters can perceive a power

based on burning chemicals with the Smell/Taste

Sense Group. (Under special circumstances, the

GM may rule that a power cannot be perceived

by Hearing or Sight and allow the character to

pick other Sense Groups that it’s perceived by.

However, characters cannot use this to get the

equivalent of the Invisible Power Effects Advantage

for free.)

Powers that don’t directly affect another

character, such as Movement Powers and Body-

Affecting Powers, are Inobvious. This means they

can typically be perceived by two Sense Groups

(the Sight Group and one other, unless the GM

rules otherwise) when in use, but in some cases

the GM may require that a character succeed with

a PER Roll or INT Roll to perceive that another

character has one of these Powers (particularly if a

character’s trying to perceive one of these Powers

with a non-Sight Sense). See Obviousness, below,

for further discussion. Additionally, the GM may

require a that character with an Inobvious Power

specify a certain power, Skill, or set of circumstances

that allow an opponent to identify the

Inobvious Power.

Mental Powers and Sensory Powers are Invisible

 

and that's from 6E 124.

 

So from this I'd say that Superman doesn't need IPE since the only times he doesn't make sound is while moving very slowly or while hovering.

 

Note that IPE does apply in some cases. I'd rule that Batman needed IPE Hearing on his ability to vanish while your back was turned.

[bigdamnhero]

No more so than someone's running.

Exactly. When someone is Running, you have some chance to notice that they are doing so, using either sight or hearing. (Whether it requires a PER Roll or not is situational.) They can use Stealth to make their movement less perceptible, tho that's harder if they're moving at high speed. I'd use the same logic for Flight, tho I might give the flying character a bonus to their Stealth Roll based on sfx.

 

Note that IPE does apply in some cases. I'd rule that Batman needed IPE Hearing on his ability to vanish while your back was turned.

Or is that just because his Stealth Roll is 20-?

 

How about the Flash's running when he standing at a podium giving a speech?

Well yes, but only because he says "I'm the fastest man alive!" every other sentence.

 

There are also plenty of examples of flying characters that ARE obvious when flying (Wings, Rockets, Repulsers, Flames, Green Glow or just a generic 'energy trail'.

In which case they qualify for a Perceivable Limitation. (Unless that's already included as part of their Focus Lim.)

 

We have always assumed/used a noise level for a power equal to Active Points/10. 

So for example a power with 45 active points would grant people trying to perceive it +9 to their roll.

I like this idea. But if it's AP/10 shouldn't that be a +5, not a +9?

[bigdamnhero]

Thinking about this some more: it also depends on the campaign. In your "standard" Champions/DC/Marvel universe, "flying man with no obvious sfx" is fairly common, if not the default; so I'd say no Advantage is required. But in a more Iron Agey game where most flying characters have rocket packs or the like, then Quiet Flying Guy might be exceptional enough to rate an Advantage.

[Ndreare]

I like this idea. But if it's AP/10 shouldn't that be a +5, not a +9?

Yes sorry about that.

[Hyper-Man]

Thanks Everyone!

 

You've confirmed my general thoughts on the matter.

[Christopher]

Hope I am not nekroing the thread. But some more data/ideas on the Animated Series case:

 

He's just hovering in this example.  He's not really trying to be stealthy but Lex only notices him when his guest reacts.

Being stealthy is easy if you are only moving very slowly:

At stealth Skill:

"Stealth applies equally to all forms of movement. No mode of movement is inherently “stealthier” than any other. However, a character who wants to move quietly with Stealth usually can’t move quickly. See 6E1 125 for more information."

On 6E1 125:

"a character moving at no more than 2m per Phase gets a +2 bonus to Stealth rolls;

one moving up to a Half Move with Combat Movement suffers a -0 to -2 penalty;
one moving up to a Full Move with Combat Movement suffers a -2 to -4 penalty.

Moving at Noncombat Movement velocities, regardless of how far the character moves, entails a -5 or greater penalty."

I think he easily get's the +2 Bonus. Whereas flying fast (NCM speeds) applies the -5 penalty instead (the audible "whoosh").

 

Enemies get a similar -2 PER modifier to just hear a "Careful walk (2m)." when you are not being stealthy according to 6E2 12

 

Plus there was the window closed. Chances are it might even have been soundproofed (it certainly was after this):

No values for that. But I would guess at another -3 to hear any sound crossing the glass. But might go up to +6 (enough so that a "Noisy outside" is perceived as "Quiet Area" on the inside and vice versa).

 

Plus Lex was distracted on his hearing sense and concentration by the conversation:

He was at least not spending extra time to listen to stuff (no +1/+2 bonus)

"Noisy area" (a place where people held a conversation) may apply -3 to PER.

 

I could easily see giving Lex a -8 to hear superman/Supes +8 to stealth in this situation. With it propably going up to 11.

In that situation even a Superman with 8- Stealth can pull a inverted batman vanish on Lex Luthor.

He could propably do it without using stealth too. But I think he intentionally used stealth here just to make it clear he is superior to lex (could eavesdrop on him anytime). I think he wanted to instill a certain fear or respect in Lex in that situation - show Lex how helpless he is against the Super-Man.

 

In turn Supes would only have a +0/-3 to hear the conversation. +3 if he has penetrative on hearing/when the window is down. And we know he has some pretty decent sense powers.

[Soleil Noir]

Depends on what you base it on. In The Adventures of Superman (George Reeves) there was a whistling sound when he flew. Later incarnations, comics included, he's a blue and red streak when he's flying, with commensurate noise/wind whistle.

 

Funny thing, that...the whooshing noise (and indeed, Superman upgrading from "leaping tall buildings in a single bound" to actual flight) originated from the fact that there was a Superman radio show, and it made it easier to convey what was going on -- the repeated grunts and thumps they would've needed for superleap sound effects would've made Supes sound like he had super-constipation or something.

 

That's also where Kryptonite came from -- when the actor who played Superman needed a couple of weeks off, they could just write it into the show that he was "exposed to some Kryptonite", then they could just have some extra or foley artist groan weakly in the background while the other actors played their parts...

[Bodkins Odds]

I thought the flight came from the Fleischer cartoon.

[Pattern Ghost]

Skip forward to 1:32

He's just hovering in this example.  He's not really trying to be stealthy but Lex only notices him when his guest reacts.

 

Well, that's Bizzaro, so I don't think it counts.

[Pattern Ghost]

I thought the flight came from the Fleischer cartoon.

 

The Fleischer cartoons look very much like leaping to me.

 

Edit:

 

Nope, looks like flight to me.

 

I'm so fickle!

 

I just watched one on Youtube where he flies out a window and makes a tight turn that's gotta be flight. Though, some of them did show him more or less jumping and not doing a lot of turning, which is what I was remembering. The intro animation also has him zig-zagging all over the screen, so it looks like the intent there was, indeed, flight. I stand corrected.

[pinecone]

Superman is just one example.  There are plenty of characters in comics that do not have any extra obviousness (visible or audible) to their ability to fly. There are also plenty of examples of flying characters that ARE obvious when flying (Wings, Rockets, Repulsers, Flames, Green Glow or just a generic 'energy trail'. 

 

The question is whether a character's Flight should automatically get thrown into the second category when they don't have IPE or any Limitations that deal with obviousness?  This would only come into play when the character wants to be Stealthy while Flying.

 

From Hero System 6e1 page 228

 

 

Don't think its nessisary. If you want to be sneaky...pay for it. Otherwise it's "Look! up in the sky!" Yadda yadda...why are you noticed? You are expending End, and did not make it invisable...