Pulling a Punch & Code vs. Killing

[Hyper-Man]

1. Should all characters with a CvK be required to use the Pulling a Punch maneuver?

 

2. If not, what additional Psychological Complication would be necessary to require it when there is doubt about an opponents toughness?

[Philip Nicholls]

I see a Code vs Killing as meaning, "I will not use a lethal level of force against an opponent unless I an certain he can resist it" eg: until I am certain that his defences can take a blow with the potential to do 10+ body then I will not use that much force.

so no attack doing 5DCs+ (which if you critical could do 10 body) until you seen your opponent shrug off, a similar blow.

This is where KS: Super Villians comes in handy.

[Cassandra]

Superheroes engaging an unknown foe, and who have a Code Versus Killing or a Code of the Hero would have to either pull their punch, or attempt to grab there opponent.  One of the reasons why crooks lasted longer then they should have was that heroes took it easy on them.  

 

Then again virtually all superheroes from the golden age should have Vuln:  Ambushes/Treacherous Attacks because they fight fair and are vulnerable to dirty tricks.

[massey]

How common are super powers? How often do people with super powers not have super defenses? Is the villain dressed up in a costume?

 

In the standard Champions-style campaign, villains can virtually always take a hit. Even Viper agents will only take one or two Body from a standard 12D6 attack.

 

You can't expect players to behave in a way that is not rational given the circumstances of the world. Supervillains don't get broken bones when they fight heroes. And for some reason they always seem to be able to give heroes a good fight. If you want players to start pulling their punches you have to give them a lot of encounters where they will seriously injure the enemies if they don't.

[Christopher]

Personally I think pulling a punch in superheroics should never be an isue to begin with.

By RAW it suffers about -2 to -3 OCV to do so for 10-12 DC attack. And it still has the chance to do full damage. -2 for something that should be self explaning in the settings seems unfiting. It's just like giving all the mooks 2 more DCV for free or imposing a Character tax to get the CSL for "Pulling a Punch".

If you just waived the OCV penalty and maybe the chance to do full damge, there would never be any issue to not pull punches. It just becomes campaign rule that Normal Damage does only half body, unless used agaisnt unliving objects (at wich point a KA is much better anyway).

Don't make it a obligation to pull the punch via (forced) CvK/Code of the hero. Make it simply a non-issue and it will happen automatically.

 

CvK is pretty much a "Character Tax" in the first place. Characters without it are not going to be casual killers. It is mostly taken to "fill up those complication points". If the character concept would be incompatible to a implied CvK, the character is is propably not suited for the Campaign anyway.

High Complication points are in part there to force you to take it. Because otherwise you would never get your sheet balanced.

 

Edit: Actually I am not even saying anythign new or revolutionary. The Rules for Pulling a Punch themself point towards that issue and the solution:

"At the GM’s option, characters can automatically Pull their punches without any OCV penalty. This is a good way to simulate four-color comic
book combat and other campaigns where the characters are supposed to be larger-than-life good guys — penalizing such characters for trying to do the “right thing” by not severely injuring their opponents is usually unfair." 6E2 88

[Cassandra]

You could require the hero to have a STUN Only attack if they want to have a Code Versus Killing.

[Greywind]

 

A man comes at me with his fists, I'll meet him with fists. But if he pulls a gun - or threatens people I'm protectin' - then I got no sympathy for him.  ~ Wolverine

[massey]

You could require the hero to have a STUN Only attack if they want to have a Code Versus Killing.

Sounds like you want characters with no CvK in your game.

[bubba smith]

there's nothing wrong with that is there?

[Greywind]

Not if you're playing in a game where killing regularly is acceptable.

[Christopher]

You could require the hero to have a STUN Only attack if they want to have a Code Versus Killing.

The thing is that most often players don't want to have the Complication Code vs Killing. That does not mean thier characters does kill regulary. Just that not killing people is not supposed to be a problem for him.

 

If there is any Justice League Character that actually has a CvK as Complication, it would be Batman. He consciously chooses not to kill. His foe the Joker is designed to test his resolve not to kill, as is well told in the Red Hood Film:

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kscfb9XzPs

 

 

 

The others do not kill as well. But it is never an issue. On average they do not have a Joker equivalent in thier settings. At large they are never even tempted to kill a enemy.

They just don't kill the same way you just breath. It never occurs to you to hold your breath till you loose consciousness. You don't need a breathing aparatus that could be stolen to incovenience you. You just do it and most of the time nobody gives a damn that you do.

 

As I said earlier, I doubt many players who takes this complication actually want not killing to be an issue.

They choose this Complication to Fill Points.

Because it is expected tha thier characters do not kill so it's a "save drop" for Complication points.

Not because they actually want not killing to be an issue.

 

 

Just try out this for a spell:

"This is a four color game".

"Pulling a punch has no penalty and no chance to to do full damage".

"You need to take 20 Complications points less then normal for this powerlevel".

 

That there is not supposed to be death is said with sentence 1.

Sentence 2 means there is no reason not to pull your punches.

Sentence 3 means there is no compulsion to take CvK anyway to fill the points. If somebody takes it, he wants it to be an actually issue. Not just fill the point budget.

 

If it does not work with your players, chances are they simply do not want a four color game. And if they do not want one, no amount of complications and forum dicussion is going to force them into one.

[Greywind]

Yeah, which is why Wonder Woman is regularly shown to carry a sword and be somewhat bloodthirsty of late.

 

Hawkman took the Monocle's arm off with an axe.

 

Not exactly CvK material.

[Hyper-Man]

Justice League Superman has a CvK.

 

Justice Lords Superman bought off the Complication with XP or exchanged it for a different Complication.

 

[GhostDancer]

One of our HERO GMs, in all his campaigns, has all of his mooks (unnamed criminal characters) die when they are wounded to zero BODY, and they may have started with only 8 BODY to begin with.  

Of course, there are many other options in addition to Pulling Your Punch.  A few include...

• Entangles and/or Flashes, purchased or otherwise (see cape, curtain, tablecloth, tapestry, etc).
• Nerve or S-Damage Strikes*
• Use less than maximum dice
• Throws, trips, stink bombs, etc.

  *From Ninja Hero Errata

 

 

[Hyper-Man]

I  have never understood the issue with the OCV penalty for using the Pulling the Punch option.  If you don't want the penalty then just use less than your maximum attack instead.  Pulling a Punch is just an option to get maximum STUN damage (with the intent of Stunning or Knocking out the target more quickly),  It should be riskier than just using a lower power attack.

[Christopher]

Justice League Superman has a CvK.

 

Justice Lords Superman bought off the Complication with XP or exchanged it for a different Complication.

 

That is one interpreataion of superman.

vs literally every interpretation of Batman, except for the very first (gun wielding) one.

 

Supes never had any of those issues in his own cartoon, not even vs Darkseid. He is more pissed at D in JL then he ever was in his own show.

 

I  have never understood the issue with the OCV penalty for using the Pulling the Punch option.  If you don't want the penalty then just use less than your maximum attack instead.  Pulling a Punch is just an option to get maximum STUN damage (with the intent of Stunning or Knocking out the target more quickly),  It should be riskier than just using a lower power attack.

The minimum penalty is -1 for using 5 DC. Even a mook with less then 12 PD will need a bit more then 5D6 damage to take down.

Sounds to me like you are trying to upvalue mooks/drag out fighting them by placing extra hurdles (like low defenses) on the players side. It might be fun the first 1-2 times. If I actually took that complication for anything but filling up points. But after a dozen fights it just get's tiresome to even deal with them.

 

Why not simply build them on the powerlevel where they are the threath they are intended to be?

Why build something that you need 100 point on 50 and then just throw penalties on the players still it works as if the target had 100 points? Me as player would annoy that a lot more then having to fight a 400 point super and loose a fair and square by the rules.

[Ninja-Bear]

Ghost dancer how did s-stun for toy guys? Always curious to see if it worked ok.

[massey]

As a player, I'd just be satisfied with mooks taking Body. He's got 5 PD? [Arnold] He'll live. [/Arnold]

[Ninja-Bear]

Hyperman I never had a problem with the OCV mod. It was with the chance of still doing full damage if you just made the hit. That seemed unfair. The hero already is at a disadvantage to do the right thing and can still get hosed?

[Hyper-Man]

Why not just use Rapid Attack* @-2OCV to use multiple smaller attacks vs the same target instead?

 

*The 6e version of Sweep.

 

go to the 1:30 minute mark

 

[esampson]

I'm not quite sure I understand the problem.

 

A character takes CvK and gains 20 points. As a result they have some added dificulties*.

 

Isn't that how it is suppose to work?

 

*In this case it is in combat (penalties against mooks and not being able to unload on the mooks with full strength because there's a danger that they get the exact roll they need to hit and then a high body roll).

[massey]

I think people are discussing different things.  I don't think Captain Overkill, with his 18D6 EB, should be unloading on Vinnie the Snitch when he tries to sneak out the back of the warehouse.  My reading of the initial question was that you encounter a villain in a costume who you've never seen before.  He's a guy in a green suit with red goggles, and his hands are glowing with yellow energy.  When he sees you, he laughs and points his hand towards you.  Do you, as a character with a code against killing, have to pull your punch when you hit him?

 

I say no.  When someone is displaying powers and/or is choosing to engage in super-level combat, it's a safe assumption that they can take a punch.  In the almost 20 years that I've been playing Champions, I've killed a villain exactly once.  I hit him, his armor failed its 14- activation roll, I rolled great on body and knockback, he slammed into a concrete barrier, his armor failed its activation again, and I rolled great damage again.  Took him to past negative Body in one shot.  Funny thing was, the other player in the game killed another villain, in the same fight, in the same phase, on the same dex.  Villain happened to have a very bad susceptibility and a vulnerability too, and he accidentally triggered them both at once.

[Cassandra]

I think people are discussing different things.  I don't think Captain Overkill, with his 18D6 EB, should be unloading on Vinnie the Snitch when he tries to sneak out the back of the warehouse.  My reading of the initial question was that you encounter a villain in a costume who you've never seen before.  He's a guy in a green suit with red goggles, and his hands are glowing with yellow energy.  When he sees you, he laughs and points his hand towards you.  Do you, as a character with a code against killing, have to pull your punch when you hit him?

 

I say no.  When someone is displaying powers and/or is choosing to engage in super-level combat, it's a safe assumption that they can take a punch.  In the almost 20 years that I've been playing Champions, I've killed a villain exactly once.  I hit him, his armor failed its 14- activation roll, I rolled great on body and knockback, he slammed into a concrete barrier, his armor failed its activation again, and I rolled great damage again.  Took him to past negative Body in one shot.  Funny thing was, the other player in the game killed another villain, in the same fight, in the same phase, on the same dex.  Villain happened to have a very bad susceptibility and a vulnerability too, and he accidentally triggered them both at once.

 

Sounds like an opportunity for some roleplaying.  Explaining the death to the authorities.  The reaction of his colleagues and the public.

[drunkonduty]

I don't use the Pulling Punches rules. Too much added complexity for not much return. The player can just chooses to do fewer dice damage. (Unless they can't, eg. with charges.)

 

I expect heroes with CvK to be careful when they get in a fight with someone who they don't know. Even if that someone is displaying super powers one can't be certain that they can withstand 12+  DC of damage. This usually works out that the CvK hero dances around a little at first, testing out the opponent's defences. If the bad guy turns out to have enough defences to warrant a full punch the hero will work it out and deliver the goods. Yes, this gives villains a bit of a head start in most fights. Ce la vie when one is a super hero.

 

Of course in the rough and tumble world of super-heroing accidents do happen. massey's example is good one. If something like that happened in my game I would be expect my players to role play the remorse etc. Maybe even by being overly careful in their next few fights such that they find themselves at a major disadvantage. But that's all part of role playing and role playing games. You create a character and you play them. 

[GhostDancer]

Ninja-Bear

Millennial Master

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Posted Yesterday, 05:57 PM

Ghost dancer how did s-stun for toy guys? Always curious to see if it worked ok. 

• Like This

 

I believe I haven't used it yet, but may do so as early as next month with Illuminated Lu http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/88435-5th-edition-250-points-comic-book-characters/page-5?hl=illuminated&do=findComment&comment=2361198  As seen in the link, his S-Damage strikes look like this-

4    points          Soft Snow Swordplay or Turning Finger Soft Swordplay or Sword Finger: Killing

 

Strike              ­-2  OCV            +0   DCV           HKA 1d6 +1; S ­ Damage, STUN Only (­0)  There is no chance of doing BODY with these attacks.  Note, per my sig line, we play 5th edition, so the K STUN multiplier is still 1d6-1 for this attack.

 

Another of our GMs, the Owl, also runs 5th edition exclusively, and uses the K STUN 1d6-1 multiplier for purchased weapons only.  Weapons that cost no points do x1d3 STUN.