Barriers in Multipowers

[Tedology]

Hello all,

 

I've searched through my Champions Complete book as well as the forum here for an answer, but to no avail.

 

If a Barrier is placed in a Multipower as a fixed slot, would that indicate that once a character switches slots, the barrier vanishes?

 

I'm guessing  yes...since it's listed as an "Instant" power, but I just wanted to double-check.  

 

Thanks for any clarification!

[Zephrosyne]

No, the Barrier stays.  Technically, once you activate the Barrier, you are not really using the power anymore.  The construction in place is the effect of that power in the same way that the damage for a Blast remains behind after you have blasted someone.

[Tedology]

Wow! Okay...thanks. Great to know.

[Greywind]

The answer is actually "it depends".

 

It depends on how the multipower is defined. It depends on the Advantages and Limitations on the multipower and the Barrier slot.

 

What is keeping the Barrier up after you switch slots? If the character only has enough points to use one slot at a time, then when you switch to the Blast, the Barrier will be gone unless the Barrier is built with some type of time delay mechanism.

[Scott Baker]

What Greywind said. You mentioned that Barrier is an "instant" power, so it normally lasts (even outside of the framework) just long enough for the character to use it (my paraphrase).

 

So you put up a Barrier in your phase. Next phase it's gone unless you activate it again. However, since you've switched slots in your MP, you don't have Barrier to activate.

[Balabanto]

Barrier stays behind like Entangle does. It's unfortunate, as this makes Entangle useless, but that's the reality.

[steriaca]

Their are two minds on this subject. Mind one says "yes", and points to Blast and Entangle (especially Entangle, cause they stick around when slots are switched unless you buy a limitation to it which states they don't). The second mind says "no" and points to the various defense powers (which, if costing Endurance, do not stick around once Endurance ceased to be payed). My advice...depends on how they are bought, but at default, they stick around much like Entangle till they are destroyed or dismissed by the user. Sounds like an "Ask Mr. Long" question to me.

[Tedology]

Okay, I guess this is more confusing that I had originally thought.

[Greywind]

Blast doesn't stick around. The damage caused by it might, but the Blast itself is only around when you use it.

[Greywind]

Barrier stays behind like Entangle does. It's unfortunate, as this makes Entangle useless, but that's the reality.

 

Also depends. Entangle is a good set-up power in a team frame. Think Sue Storm putting someone in a force bubble long enough for Ben to set up his haymaker.

[Scott Baker]

I'm not sure how you continue to pay END for a power you no longer have available. (Which brings us back to Greywind's post.)

[Tedology]

I'm not sure how you continue to pay END for a power you no longer have available. (Which brings us back to Greywind's post.)

 

With Barrier, does one pay END only when cast, or for each phase it's up?

[Scott Baker]

Sounds like an "Ask Mr. Long" question to me.

And asked:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/89585-barrier-in-a-multipower/

[Greywind]

With Barrier, does one pay END only when cast, or for each phase it's up?

 

Normally, it would be an "each phase" power.

[Scott Baker]

With Barrier, does one pay END only when cast, or for each phase it's up?

 

 

Normally, it would be an "each phase" power.

 

I know Tedology is using CC, but going back to 6E1 170, you only pay END when first creating the barrier. You can take a limitation to have to keep paying END each phase. This does make sense as the power is normally Instant.

[Tedology]

I know Tedology is using CC, but going back to 6E1 170, you only pay END when first creating the barrier. You can take a limitation to have to keep paying END each phase. This does make sense as the power is normally Instant.

 

Yes, this is where I get a bit confused, it seems. In "Champions Powers", many of the Barriers do take the Limitation: "Must pay END to maintain"...so that is why I am a bit perplexed.

[Scott Baker]

Yes, this is where I get a bit confused, it seems. In "Champions Powers", many of the Barriers do take the Limitation: "Must pay END to maintain"...so that is why I am a bit perplexed.

The confusion (around paying END) was definitely on my part. Which may lead to a follow-up question depending on how Steve answers my question.

[Tasha]

Ok, a basic barrier is Instant Just like Telepathy. So the power effect (a wall) sticks around after the MP is reconfigured. You pay end to create the wall, but not to maintain it. Which makes sense as the wall doesn't heal itself each phase of Body Damage done to it.

IF the barrier is purchased with the limitation "costs End to maintain" when the MP is changed the PC cannot continue to pay the end to maintain because the MP is focued on another power, so the Barrier Drops. Basically it turns the Barrier into a Constant power.

 

Also, Barrier does something VERY different From Entangle. Entangle was allowed to do some barrier like things in the past. Now you would just use barrier instead (ie Spider man wants to block a door. In earlier editions he would have used entangle to block the door. Now the Proper power for that is Barrier.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I don't know, building a barrier tough enough to sustain significant damage costs a lot more than an entangle.  Entangle still has quite a bit of utility, its just a different sort of construct.

 

I would suggest that perhaps Barrier not be usable to duplicate entangle, however.

[Hyper-Man]

With Barrier, does one pay END only when cast, or for each phase it's up?

 

It ALL depends on what you are modelling and how the final Ability is built.

 

Example 1:

If you are modeling a Green Lantern 'force wall-esq' Barrier then you would likely use the Costs End to Maintain Limitation or Can Be dispelled Advantage to represent it's 'energy construct' nature.  The Costs End To Maintain Limitation turns it into a Constant Power.

 

Example 2:

If you are modelling Spidey's Web Slinger 'entangle as a barrier-esq' Barrier you would probably not want to use either of those particular modifiers so the final Ability would still be considered Instant (and therefore is still 'fire and forget' within a Power Framework).

[Hyper-Man]

I don't know, building a barrier tough enough to sustain significant damage costs a lot more than an entangle.  Entangle still has quite a bit of utility, its just a different sort of construct.

 

I would suggest that perhaps Barrier not be usable to duplicate entangle, however.

 

Barrier is not duplicating Entangle.  It is defining a specific mechanic that previous editions of the rules shoehorned into Entangle and Force Wall depending on how END was defined (similar to the pre-6e special effect difference between Armor and Force Field).

 

From Hero System 6e1 page 170

 

USING BARRIER

Characters can use Barrier at Range. To place a Barrier in the desired Area at Range, the character must succeed with an Attack Roll against DCV 3. Barrier is an Instant Power, so a character only pays END when he first creates a Barrier. A Barrier, once created, is a physical object that remains in existence until destroyed by attacks, the passage of time, or other factors. If a character wants a Barrier that he has to “maintain,” he should apply the Limitation Costs Endurance (to maintain; -½).

 

 

 

And from APG 1 page 81

 

ADDERS

Dismissable: As noted in 6E1, a Barrier is a physical object that remains in existence until destroyed (or until its creator stops paying END, in the case of Barriers that cost Endurance to maintain). However, in some cases characters may want to be able to instantly remove the Barriers they create. A Barrier with the +5 Character Point Adder Dismissable can be removed by its creator if he takes a Zero Phase Action to do so.

 

At the GM’s option, characters can also apply this Adder to other Instant Powers that have some sort of “lingering” effect, such as Entangle or Mind Control. It cannot be used to instantly “heal” the effects of an Attack Power, such as STUN or BODY damage.

 

[Balabanto]

Ok, a basic barrier is Instant Just like Telepathy. So the power effect (a wall) sticks around after the MP is reconfigured. You pay end to create the wall, but not to maintain it. Which makes sense as the wall doesn't heal itself each phase of Body Damage done to it.

 

IF the barrier is purchased with the limitation "costs End to maintain" when the MP is changed the PC cannot continue to pay the end to maintain because the MP is focued on another power, so the Barrier Drops. Basically it turns the Barrier into a Constant power.

 

Also, Barrier does something VERY different From Entangle. Entangle was allowed to do some barrier like things in the past. Now you would just use barrier instead (ie Spider man wants to block a door. In earlier editions he would have used entangle to block the door. Now the Proper power for that is Barrier.

 

Except that Barrier does everything that Entangle does, only better and cheaper. Barrier isolates any opponent (or a group of opponents) without teleportation and makes him burn 2-3 actions to escape from it. Entangle isolates a single character and makes him burn one. The entangle only doesn't take damage if you weaken the entangle to the point where it's group attack trigger and that's it.

 

The most powerful thing in any game is action denial. Barrier denies people multiple actions far more often and far more effectively.

[Scott Baker]

From Steve Long:

 

Barrier is an Instant Power. Therefore it remains in place when the character in this example switches his Multipower slot, unless he's put some Power Modifier on it that changes the situation.

[Tedology]

From Steve Long:

 

Thanks for sharing this, Scott!

[JmOz]

Regarding it being better than entangle, no more so than a sword is better than a scalpel,  Entangle, as a single target attack, allows you to isolate one individual who may be in HtH with another, while barrier will not.  Furthermore Entangle has a number of advantages that can be applied that Barrier cannot.