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Classic comic book characters; point limit? We don't need no stinking...


Echo3Niner
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Cassandra has done a great job of showing what can be done with templates and making workable facsimiles of classic comic book characters fitting within curtain point totals (templates).

 

I was wondering if anyone had any "definitive" (or as accurate as they think can be) builds of commonly known comic book characters, without trying to limit the build cost?  Just letting it rip so to speak, and see what the point totals end up?

 

Given the incredible (in some cases galaxy or universe altering) powers shown by characters like Superman, Hulk, Phoenix and Silver Surfer (for instance), when compared to a more "normal" Spiderman, Daredevil, or Batman, I would think if everything were accurately portrayed, there would be huge differences in point totals of these characters, more than simply 100 or even 150 points.

 

Anyway, I'm new here, and only coming back to Champions after about 10-15 years (just purchased CC); so if this is old news or has been beaten to death, just let me know.  I'm just trying to get a feel for the new system and point totals for "classes of heroes" (if you will).

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It all depends on what you are looking for from a classic character writeup.

 

If you are looking for writeups usable as PC's then Cassandra's and the links in my SIG below are a good resource. 

 

If you are looking for builds reflecting the power levels of experienced versions from the comics then see resources like Surbrooks site.

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I've never bothered with point limits when building established characters or creatures.  They cost what they cost.  When I built the X-Men for a convention game, they ended up pretty varied in point values (guys like Cyclops were really cheap, where Rogue was hellishly expensive, as you'd expect).

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As a fan of DC characters like Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman, I have wrestled with the desire to build them on higher points.  Marvel Characters tend to have lots of small powers so they usually can be easily built on 250 Points.  Here is a suggested list of points for various characters.

 

Legendary (350 Points/200+ Disadvantages)

 

Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash (Barry Allen), Green Lantern (Hal Jordan), Martian Manhunter, Aquaman, Supergirl, Lex Luthor

 

 

Superhero (250 Points/150+ Disadvantages)

 

Spider-Man, Hulk, Thor, The Fantastic Four, Captain America, Iron Man, Green Arrow, Hawkeye, Atom (Ray Palmer), Black Canary (Dinah Lance), Zatanna, Quicksilver, The X-Men, Hawkman, Hawkwoman, Power Girl, Superboy, Black Widow, Batgirl (Barbara Gordon)

 

 

Hero (200 Points/100+ Disadvantages)

 

Nick Fury, Lois Lane, Jimmy Olsen, Steve Trevor, Bucky, Toro, Black Canary (Dinah Drake), Atom (Al Pratt), Hawkgirl, Robin, Black Bat, Sgt. Rock, The Outsiders, James Bond, Modesy Blaise, Honey West, Wonder GIrl, Teen Titans, Young Justice, Legion of Superheroes

 

 

Competent (150 Points/75+ Disadvantages)

 

Phil Coulson, Sharon Carter, Napoleon Solo, Maxwell Smart, Indiana Jones, Tarzan, Sheena, Melinda May, Agent 99, Mike Hammer, Remington Steele, Laura Holt, Special Forces (Green Berets, Rangers, Marine Force Recon, SEALs), SWAT Team Members, Impossible Mission Force

 

 

Skills (100 Points/50+ Disadvantages)

 

SHIELD Agents, Hydra Agents, UNCLE Agents, THRUSH Agents, Armed Forces, Police Officers, FBI Agents, CIA Agents, KGB Agents

Etta Candy, Perry White, Jane Foster

 

 

Normal (50 Points/25+ Disadvantages)

 

Jonathan & Martha Kent, Pete Ross, Gwen Stacy, Mary Jane Watson

 

 

Incompetent (25 Points/0+ Disadvantages)

 

Aunt May, Uncle Ben

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You have to reduce a character to their essential powers.  Hulk is a 60 STR Brick with Leaping.  Thor is a 60 STR Brick with a EB VSFX (Hammer/Lightning) and Flight.  Then you add what back up powers they have like life support, enhanced senses, mental defense, and so on.

 

Remember there are always other means of stimulating powers.  3" of Megascale Leaping is very cost effective and gives the Hulk the ability to cover a lot of ground quickly.  Remember that 1" Mega is equal to 500" hexes.

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As a fan of DC characters like Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman, I have wrestled with the desire to build them on higher points.  Marvel Characters tend to have lots of small powers so they usually can be easily built on 250 Points.  Here is a suggested list of points for various characters.

 

Legendary (350 Points/200+ Disadvantages)

 

Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash (Barry Allen), Green Lantern (Hal Jordan), Martian Manhunter, Aquaman, Supergirl, Lex Luthor

 

 

Superhero (250 Points/150+ Disadvantages)

 

Spider-Man, Hulk, Thor, The Fantastic Four, Captain America, Iron Man, Green Arrow, Hawkeye, Atom (Ray Palmer), Black Canary (Dinah Lance), Zatanna, Quicksilver, The X-Men, Hawkman, Hawkwoman, Power Girl, Superboy, Black Widow, Batgirl (Barbara Gordon)

 

 

So to start, let me clarify, I do absolutely mean an actual write-up of the characters as represented by modern comics; so not their "starter self", but with all the juice they have today.

 

So, I'm far more a Marvel guy than DC, and this is exactly what I'm trying to get to the bottom of.  Let's use a little of what you've put here, and then I'm going to give some examples of some of the extreme powers of some of these characters, to illustrate what I'm talking about.

 

You have Thor, Cap, Green Arrow, Hawkeye and Spiderman on the same point total group as Hulk and "The X-Men" (which I assume includes the Phoenix).

 

So, during The Secret Wars, I have two examples of how "off the scale" the Hulk and the Phoenix's powers are.  

 

So, the green Hulk's strength continued to rise, the more angry he got.  It had no end point.  Reed Richards used this during Secret Wars, as Hulk held up A MOUNTAIN RANGE long enough for the heroes to escape, by insulting him and making him angrier.  So even 100 STR in Champions wouldn't be the limit.

 

The Phoenix (and we're talking the "little Phoenix" - Rachael here, not even the full, Jean Grey possessed Dark Phoenix) got angry enough that she was about to suck-up all the life-force in our universe, to kill the Beyonder, until Storm talked her out of it...  I don't know how you would represent this with points exactly...

 

This leads to the concept of the old Marvel game, and having the "class" categories, as well as a Beyond category, for these types of powers.  Example; Silver Surfer used his Class 5000 (one step below Beyond) flight to go backward in time, then forward in time, to show Nova how a planet was going to evolve...

 

So my point here is that there is NO WAY, Hulk, Phoenix, Silver Surfer, etc. are on the same power point curve as some other characters in the Spiderman, Capt. America, Daredevil line.

 

I'm not clear if you can even point total these types of characters...  And that's kinda why I'm asking these questions.

 

Actually another issue is not identifying which timeline of the character we're speaking about; for instance, the Hulk has gone thru so many iterations you cannot simply say "this represents the Hulk", without first identifying which Hulk you're talking about.  Mr. Fixit vs. old Dumb Hulk vs. the Banner/"talking Hulk", would have three wildly different point totals.

 

Anyway, this is what I'm trying to understand.  I'm guessing you could make Wolverine (as known today, not "starter" Wolverine) for something in the 400-500 total point range (we're talking complete Adamantite Skeleton, completely unbreakable bones here, before you even get into the HUGE healing factor), but someone like Silver Surfer, or Green Hulk, or Phoenix?  I'd guess more in the thousands of points...

 

So, I'll go check out that site referenced earlier, but wanted thoughts here.

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400 6e and 350 5e are Beginning character points.

 

Beginning versions of classic comic characters can be built on those points.

 

Exactly; I understand that, and am good with it.

 

What I'm trying to understand, is some character examples of where powerful characters fit in the point totals, so I get a good understanding of the levels.

 

Example; perhaps the Green Hulk I describe above, Phoenix, Silver Surfer, maybe they're a 1000 points, or 5000 points.

 

Maybe Thor, and Red Hulk are 800 points.

 

Maybe Adamantite Wolverine, is 500 points.

 

Maybe modern Capt. America and Daredevil are 300 points.

 

These are examples of point power curves, not what I think they should be.  This is what I'm trying to get at.  If I had an understanding of this, I'd have a better understanding of where characters fit, and could quickly come up with a villain appropriate, once I know the power point curve scale.

 

To use a DC equivalent (and extremes to make my point), at their mature state; surely Dr. Manhattan is not the same point total as Rorschach, right?  The full powered Superman, has to be several magnitudes above Deathstroke?

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OK, that other site is more like it!

 

Though it's all DC, here are some point totals that make more sense to me, and give me an idea of what I'm talking about:

 

Dr. Manhattan = 1144 total points.

Rorschach = 240

 

Full power Superman = 2070 total points.

 

So, now we're getting to a curve that makes sense to me...

 

First, thank you for that site, helps a lot.  Second, anyone know a site like that, that has full powered built representatives of Marvel heroes?

 

That was exactly what I was looking for here, if anyone has examples they'd like to share.

 

And thank you all for your help getting me back up to speed.

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So, going down further on that site, I found some Marvel characters; much better for me:

 

Colossus = only 344 total points (mildly surprised by that)

Daredevil = 408

Iron Man = 598 (though it doesn't say which Mark suit, which is important)

Adamantite Wolverine = 600

Capt. America = 648

 

Now I'm starting to get a better idea.

 

Are the write-ups on this site accurate in the 5e/6e/CC era?

 

As I said, I'm trying to get back into Champions; I think I last played 2nd Ed. (it would have been between '90-'95), although it might have been as late as 4th Ed.; it was a huge blue hard cover (which I seem to have lost), with a terrible binding and pages falling out all over the place, if that makes sense?

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I think you've got a handle on the issues already, Echo3Niner. Have a look at Michael Surbrook's site (linked to in Hyperman's first post.) It will give you all the leads you need. It's got a lot of really good write ups for well known characters. On a variety of points totals. And different versions of some of the characters because, yes, Joe Fixit and Red Hulk are not the same character.

 

And Greywind brings up a good point. A lot of the things we see in the comics are plot points. These are hard to model. So hard I wouldn't bother trying. Sometimes you have to accept that the things shown in the books are too difficult to model to bring into a game. Or too unbalancing. Or too stupid.

 

But if you like I can try to model the Hulk's mountain lifting feat at least. Here's my rough design.

 

Start out with STR of, oh, let's say 70. Get him angry - this is an AID to his STR. This gets his STR up to, oh let's say, 110 over a couple of phases. Now let's start pushing both his STR and his AID. 10 pts of STR and 10pts of AID that will translate into another 12 pts of STR over a phase or 2. This gets us a total of 132 STR. Is that enough to lift a mountain range? No idea. But it should be enough to lift that part of the mountains that is directly above the Hulk. Which is all he needs to lift. After all, who cares about some foothills 50kms away? They aren't squashing anyone we know about. And don't forget to ask for a Hoist skill roll to keep the part of the mountain above you from falling apart. Now let's say that Hulk 1/2END on his 70pts of STR. The AIDed and PUSHED STR he has to pay full END for. This has Hulk is spending 32END/phase, for both STR and the AID, to keep this up. The player slows Hulk's SPD to 1. If the Hulk has a REC of 30 he can keep this up for 5 minutes. With a REC of 32 he can keep it up all day.

 

To actually answer your question in the OP. Do we have to have fit all characters into one points value? No. Obviously not. Firelord is many, MANY more points than Spiderman. They are not even close to being in the same weight division. But as an intellectual exercise we can certainly try to make them fit into the same weight division. It's for fun after all.

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Competent (150 Points/75+ Disadvantages)

 

Phil Coulson, Sharon Carter, Napoleon Solo, Maxwell Smart, Indiana Jones, Tarzan, Sheena, Melinda May, Agent 99, Mike Hammer, Remington Steele, Laura Holt, Special Forces (Green Berets, Rangers, Marine Force Recon, SEALs), SWAT Team Members, Impossible Mission Force

 

 

Bolding mine.

 

Max, competent? Really, Cassandra? :winkgrin:

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re: lifting a mountain

 

140 STR is enough to lift the Great Pyramid of Giza.

 

My starting version of Superman can briefly attain a 130 Lifting STR before pushing (see the last slot in his VPP) which is enough to save a jumbo jet/space plane like in his first costumed appearance in Superman:TAS Last Son of Krypton part 3.

 

I can't find a link to the full episode but the scene is featured in the series intro (skip to 18 seconds in):

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I've written up a lot of characters, but I don't have them posted anywhere.  Yes, my Silver Surfer is about 2000 points.  The Surfer can fly through a star, open a black hole, fight cosmic entities, etc.  He's got a 90 Str, 50 Con, 7 Spd, 50/50 Def with 50% physical reduction and 75% energy reduction, and a 180 point cosmic power pool.  He works for my vision of the Surfer.

 

I pick the era I want to emulate and go from there.  There is no reason that Animated Series Batman should influence a writeup of modern comic book Batman.  They aren't really the same character.  I tend to build "up", as in giving them a lot of abilities so they can do most of the things I've seen them do.  This is as opposed to building "down", where you give the character the bare minimum to do the things they must be able to do.  If Cyclops regularly destroys tanks with his optic blasts, then it can't be a 10D6 EB.

 

I also try to balance characters against one another.  If the Hulk can beat up the Thing, then the writeup should reflect that.  Daredevil is a great martial artist, but he's not quite as good as Batman.  Now point-wise, some characters may be much higher than you anticipate.  Batman wastes tons of points of vehicles, bases, followers, noncombat skills, contacts, and every other kind of thing that isn't directly related to punching a guy in the face.  Batman probably has 15 different martial art maneuvers, where it would just be cheaper to buy him a 60 Str instead of giving him joint break and joint lock and offensive strike and legsweep, etc.  But he's got those moves, so I give them to him.  So he may be 1000 points, but that doesn't mean he can physically kick the crap out of Solomon Grundy, who may only be 450 points.  But Grundy spent all his points on being a brick with full life support.

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