Jump to content

Classic comic book characters; point limit? We don't need no stinking...


Echo3Niner
 Share

Recommended Posts

To actually answer your question in the OP. Do we have to have fit all characters into one points value? No. Obviously not. Firelord is many, MANY more points than Spiderman. They are not even close to being in the same weight division. But as an intellectual exercise we can certainly try to make them fit into the same weight division. It's for fun after all.

 

Ah, "punching above your weight division", there is a reference I can understand.

 

And yes, after finding the Marvel characters on that site, I was much better able to understand a proper power curve.

 

So based on that; with a starting CP of 400, you get a good starting hero, like a "standard mutant" or Daredevil (street crime) level in Marvel.

 

Once you get to the 600 point range, you are starting to get to the Avenger/Fantanstic 4 or "advanced mutant" (e.g. Adamantite Wolverine, Magneto) level of superhero.

 

When you get to the 1000 point range, you are getting into the "Other worldly"/cosmic level (e.g. Dr. Banner Hulk [1400]) superheros.

 

When you get near the 2000 point range, you are at the pinnacle of superhero power (e.g. Silver Surfer).

 

Anything beyond 2000'ish is getting into the "World-eater" (i.e Galactus) level.

 

This is more granular (for me, from a Marvel prospective).  I appreciate the "level chart" on page 9 of the CC, but without character I understand to go with the numbers, it is difficult for me to place.  This works much better (for me).

 

Thank you for all the help.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 65
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

I will say this.  Some powers that fit a character cost more then normally allowed.

 

Wasp's Shrinking for example.

 

Jimmy Olsen's Signal Watch for another.  I built it as a Summon Superman and it cost 125 Points before limitations.

 

How can it cost more than allowed? Jan's shrinking isn't all the massive. A lot of her other powers are tied to the shrinking, like her bio-blast.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And a question I think I know the answer to, but while I'm typing I might as well ask the n00b question;

 

Complications do not ADD to your point total to build with, they are NOT part of a slide rule scale; they are ADDITIONAL things you have to buy, to "complicate" the awesomely powered super hero, right?  To say it another way, 200CP PLUS 100 points in complications, DOES NOT make a 300 point character in "build points"?

 

So, a GM could decide that 400 CP, but only 50 or 30 points in Complications is appropriate for his game; correct?

 

I do not want to have my players have 100 points in complications, but then never have time to really use them.  I'd much rather only have an appropriate amount, that I will actually use in the campaign, even if that's lower than recommended for that scale.

 

I understand the concept of complications, but it appears to me that they are designed to go up in lock-step with CP, and that may not make sense to a game I'm planning.  If every character has 100 points in complications, it appears to me they would make up a large portion of a game (if given the appropriate level of emphasis from the GM's perspective), and I'm not sure that I want that much "disruption" to my storyline.  Basically, I'm trying to understand what your opinions are on good balance between say 4-6 players complication levels, and still being able to have a campaign focus on the main storyline?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If the GM sets the points for the game at 400. You get 400. If you are required to have 50 points of Complications and choose not to take them, you only have 350 points to build with.

 

Ah!  So Complications are part of the CP total, in that you are "credited" the Complications in your CP?  So, 200CP + 50 complications IS NOT 250 total CP to build with; it is assumed that 50 OF THE 200 are complications (150 "build points" + 50 complications = 200 CP for character creation)?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And what about the second part of the question?

 

I don't want the Complications to mean nothing, because as a GM I don't put enough effort into them, but I also will have little time in my game to be able to focus on them.

 

Let's say you have an in-depth storyline, which will leave only 10-15% of the time in a game session (e.g. out of a 6 hour game session that's +/- 45 minutes spread over the session) for EVERYONE's complications.  What level of Complications for say 6 players (using the above example, that's all of ~8 minutes per player), do GM's find you are able to actually use appropriately in play, while NOT impacting your overall story?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

I also try to balance characters against one another.  If the Hulk can beat up the Thing, then the writeup should reflect that.  Daredevil is a great martial artist, but he's not quite as good as Batman.  Now point-wise, some characters may be much higher than you anticipate.  Batman wastes tons of points of vehicles, bases, followers, noncombat skills, contacts, and every other kind of thing that isn't directly related to punching a guy in the face.  Batman probably has 15 different martial art maneuvers, where it would just be cheaper to buy him a 60 Str instead of giving him joint break and joint lock and offensive strike and legsweep, etc.  But he's got those moves, so I give them to him.  So he may be 1000 points, but that doesn't mean he can physically kick the crap out of Solomon Grundy, who may only be 450 points.  But Grundy spent all his points on being a brick with full life support.

 

See this is where the geek fight begins, but I would define Daredevil as an astoundingly better martial artist than Batman.  Not as smart, not as many great gadgets, and probably not as physically tough, but far, far better in martial arts.  He's not only trained by one of the best in the world, but his enhanced senses make him much more dangerous.

But yeah, when you start adding in all the stuff they've demonstrated or done in comics over the years, even a simple character like Cyclops (eye blasts, tactics) turns into a points monster.  He's a pilot!  He has armor!  He's got 200 levels in OCV!  He's got martial arts!  On and on it goes.  So I agree, stripping the character down to their core is ideal for building or they turn into a 3 page monstrosity.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is degenerating into a DC vs. Marvel "geek fight" (so I'm going to jump in).

 

In my opinion, Batman and Daredevil would be fairly close, but Batman would win (fairly easily even), cause of all his armor and other goodies.  Now, if they met in a gym, with no goodies, DD's super abilities (which according to the Frank Miller era DD, aren't even super abilities) would allow him to destroy The Batman.

 

As a one time owner of all the Marvel RPG books, who had stats for just about every one of their characters, I will tell you Shang Chi is actually the best pure fighter in all of Marvel period (that's fact, based on the game stats; and defeated The Thing in a fight once - I have the comic), and taking powers/gadgets aside, would stomp both of them.

 

AND, just to make this more fun; Longshot would beat them all, because he has luck (one of the most powerful powers in Marvel RPG), and everything would simply go his way...

 

But that's besides the point...   :rofl:

 

Back to our regular programming; please see post #31 for my outstanding question...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

True about Batman but did he train as long, considering he was traveling the world learning about magic, herbs, science, linguistics, computers, how to drive every vehicle possible, chemistry, on and on and on.  I mean... yeah he got good training, but only for about 5-10 years, and he was busy traveling the planet training for everything else as well.  I know its comic book history and you have to give them a bit of license so he's cool but he really didn't have time to become a master in anything.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah I was just thinking it would be an easy device she could use at will (defense being "no openings large enough for Wasp to fly into") which would include things like ear holes.  She's blasted more than one big bad guy right in the ear, for bonus damage.

 

Mostly though, her blasts bounce off even moderately tough guys.  She uses indirect attacks like collapsing things on them and cutting electrical wires, etc.  That's something I wish I could get players to try more often but they seem to lose all creativity when their powers don't work well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The various Champions Villains books give you a good idea of what to expect in terms of point totals. Most of the flagship heroes vary between about 400 and 700 CP depending upon where they are in their histories and which book you quote them out of.

 

Dr. Destroyer on the other hand (the original one, not Shadow Destroyer) was built on 3,669 points (110 Complication Points) (granted 800-900 of that is from perks like followers, bases, and vehicles). He is described as one of the most powerful villains in the Champions Universe, this is a man who has tried to take over the world numerous times, including by hurling meteorites into the USA to the rest of the world would just give in to his demands (because of disaster economics? I don't know...), slain dozens of superheroes, held out for days in battle, and destroyed the city of Detroit with himself in it instead of letting himself be beaten by the remaining heroes.

That being said, he stands toe to toe and a little above every other villain in the book, including the extra-dimensional demi-gods with delusions of dimensional conquest... Most of whom are solidly in the 2000-2500 point range...

 

In comparison, I could see Superman being built on anything between 400 and 2000 points.

I built a parody of Superman for my CC game at 400 points. (named "Klark C. Entripoff" and/or "The Man Of Steel". He is little more than a pretty flying brick with enhanced senses (Infrared and Ultraviolet perception), a vulnerability to radiation damage, and a susceptibility to "Unobtainium Radiation"... Unobtanium is what that campaign setting used in place of Kryptonite for pretty much every villain/hero with a weakness to unusual materials or powers that don't work in the presence of unusual materials. He definitely feels weaker than the "real" Superman: no heat vision or gust of wind breath, he can only lift 25 tons and his top (non-combat) flight speed is only ~133.33m per second.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The various Champions Villains books give you a good idea of what to expect in terms of point totals. Most of the flagship heroes vary between about 400 and 700 CP depending upon where they are in their histories and which book you quote them out of.

 

Dr. Destroyer on the other hand (the original one, not Shadow Destroyer) was built on 3,669 points (110 Complication Points) (granted 800-900 of that is from perks like followers, bases, and vehicles). He is described as one of the most powerful villains in the Champions Universe, this is a man who has tried to take over the world numerous times, including by hurling meteorites into the USA to the rest of the world would just give in to his demands (because of disaster economics? I don't know...), slain dozens of superheroes, held out for days in battle, and destroyed the city of Detroit with himself in it instead of letting himself be beaten by the remaining heroes.

That being said, he stands toe to toe and a little above every other villain in the book, including the extra-dimensional demi-gods with delusions of dimensional conquest... Most of whom are solidly in the 2000-2500 point range...

 

In comparison, I could see Superman being built on anything between 400 and 2000 points.

I built a parody of Superman for my CC game at 400 points. (named "Klark C. Entripoff" and/or "The Man Of Steel". He is little more than a pretty flying brick with enhanced senses (Infrared and Ultraviolet perception), a vulnerability to radiation damage, and a susceptibility to "Unobtainium Radiation"... Unobtanium is what that campaign setting used in place of Kryptonite for pretty much every villain/hero with a weakness to unusual materials or powers that don't work in the presence of unusual materials. He definitely feels weaker than the "real" Superman: no heat vision or gust of wind breath, he can only lift 25 tons and his top (non-combat) flight speed is only ~133.33m per second.

 

 

Shouldn't that be "Man of Steal"?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

See this is where the geek fight begins, but I would define Daredevil as an astoundingly better martial artist than Batman.  Not as smart, not as many great gadgets, and probably not as physically tough, but far, far better in martial arts.  He's not only trained by one of the best in the world, but his enhanced senses make him much more dangerous.

But yeah, when you start adding in all the stuff they've demonstrated or done in comics over the years, even a simple character like Cyclops (eye blasts, tactics) turns into a points monster.  He's a pilot!  He has armor!  He's got 200 levels in OCV!  He's got martial arts!  On and on it goes.  So I agree, stripping the character down to their core is ideal for building or they turn into a 3 page monstrosity.

 

Actually, I think I was arguing more in favor of the 3 page monstrosity. :)

 

For example, my Cyclops is 470 points.  He's one of the cheapest of the experienced X-Men, because he's a very straightforward character.

 

 

Cyclops (circa mid-90s when I stopped reading X-Men)

 

Str 20 (despite being called "slim", he's got a heroic male build)

Dex 21 (he actually seems to act after most other characters)

Con 25 (pretty durable for a guy with no defensive powers)

Body 16

Int 18 (smart, but not a genius)

Ego 20 (trained by Prof X, strong willed, not a telepath)

Pre 25 (one of the best leaders in the Marvel Universe, unflappable)

Com 14

PD 12 (still in "superheroic human" range) 

ED 12 (ditto)

Spd 5

Rec 12

End 50

Stun 45

 

8" Running

3" Swimming

 

+6 w/ Optic Blast (only person I've ever seen him miss was Spidey)

+1 w/ martial arts

Rapid Attack - ranged

 

Breakfall, Bureacratics, Combat Driving, Combat Piloting, Deduction, Instructor, Mechanics, Navigation, Oratory, Paramedics, Security Systems, Shadowing, Stealth, Survival, Systems Op (all at baseline stat level) Tactics 15-, Teamwork 15- (skills I've either seen him use repeatedly or things he should have)

 

Lang: Japanese, Russian - both fluent (read somewhere that he speaks them)

 

Science: Geometry and Spatial Relations 15-

 

KS: Mutant politics 13-

 

6/6 combat luck

Danger Sense  13- (some sources indicate that he's been around enough telepaths that he's developed some small awareness)

 

Legsweep, M Block, M Dodge, M Strike, M Throw, O Strike (I've seen him stomp a group of guys without using his blast - 8D6 O Strike should do that)

 

Optic Blast - 15D6 EB, 1/2 end, personal immunity

+5D6 EB, personal immunity, x5 end

Find Weakness 12- with optic blast

 

10 pts Mental Def

Mind Link w/ Jean Grey, psychic bond, empathic only (again, certain sources indicate this)

 

--

 

This is my default Cyclops writeup.  He can spread his Optic Blast and take out a roomful of people.  With a FW roll, he can blast tanks to pieces.  Yes, he's expensive, but I can justify just about everything on the writeup and experienced heroes should be pricey.  I usually don't include every single contact that a character has (or a lot of background skills as well, if they revealed in 1983 that Cyke loves Russian operas then my bad for forgetting it) -- writers don't seem to remember those anymore anyway.  Likewise for superhero games I don't use transport or weapon familiarities.  I'm sure Cyke should probably have some Area Knowledges as well, but unless it's Batman's AK: Gotham, or something equally important to the character, I usually leave it out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here is my Cyclops on 250 Points

 

Val Char Cost

20 STR 10

18 DEX 24

20 CON 20

12 BODY 4

18 INT 8

11 EGO 2

20 PRE 10

18 COM 4

8 PD 4

6 ED 2

4 SPD 12

8 REC 0

40 END 0

32 STUN 0

Total Characteristics Cost: 100 Points

 

Cost Skills

3 Acrobatics 13-

3 Breakfall 13-

12 Combat Luck +6 rPD +6 rED

3 Combat Piloting [Military Aircraft] 13-

6 CSL: EB +3

3 Conversation 13-

4 Martial Block

4 Martial Dodge

4 Martial Strike

3 Martial Throw

3 Navigation [Air & Space] 13-

5 Offensive Strike

3 Oratory 13-

10 SL: Overall +1

3 Tactics 13-

4 TF: Helicopters, Large Aircraft, Small Aircraft, Science Fiction & Space Vehicles, X-Jet

Total Skills Cost: 75 Points

 

Cost Powers

40 Multipower (50 Points) Not versus Ruby Quartz (-1/4)

3 u) EB 5d6, No END Persistent (+1), Always On (-1/2)

2 u) Missile Deflection [All Ranged Attacks] +5, OIF/IAF: Goggles/Glasses (-1/2)

7 No Always On on EB, OIF/IIAF: Goggles/Glasses (-1/2)

16 EB +5d6, No END (+1/2), Linked (-1/2), Not versus Ruby Quartz (-1/4), OIF/IAF:: Goggles/Glasses (-1/2)

5 Mind Link [Jean Grey], No LOS, Only With Those Who Have Mind Link (-1), Psychic Bond (-1)

2 Running +1"

Total Powers Cost: 75 Points

 

Total Cost: 250 Points

 

150+ Disadvantages

10 DF: Mutant (Concealable/Technology/Major Reaction)

20 Hunted: Brotherhood Of Evil Mutants (More Powerful/NCI) 8-

10 Hunted: Professor X (More Powerful/NCI/Watch) 8-

20 Normal Characteristics Maxima

15 PsyL: Loves Jean Grey (Common/Strong)

15 PsyL: Protective Of Mutants (Common/Strong)

10 SocL: Secret Identity [scott Summers] (Occasionally/Major)

Total Disadvantages Cost: 250 Points

 

 

My Cyclops is built with my standard Martial Artist Superhero Characteristics.  His EB is Always on unless he's wearing either his Goggles or Glasses.  His Missile Deflection is using his EB to deflect any incoming attacks.  His linked EB is the additional control he has over his EB using his Goggles/Glasses.  He has a psychic bond with Jean Grey.  His skills are those of a Martial Artist and Pilot who can fly anything. He also has some leadership skills, and the combat levels with his EB.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah you can build a lot of the X-Men really cheap.  I could even argue that you overbuilt his stats a bit, could convert those into his armored uniform (yeah, their suits have armor).  Also, I'd built his "eyes blast everything in sight" as a complication, not a power.  He's almost never used that offensively because its so uncontrollably destructive.  10d6 sounds low but that's probably campaign based.  And he should have a considerable amount of mental defense, depending on when you built him - Professor X trained all of them in shielding their minds.  He's really REALLY accurate with that blast, so definitely lots of levels and CV, including bonuses for sweep and bounce maneuvers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...