Marvel Cinematic Universe, Phase Three and BEYOOOOONND

[Christopher R Taylor]

Punching heroes are cheaper on the SFX budget than blasting heroes? 

 

 

I think that's 99% of it.  These guys are cheap on the budget, you don't even use a costume for any of them but Daredevil.

[Lord Liaden]

And the Disney exec running the Marvel television shows is notoriously cheap.

[Nolgroth]

Speaking of Iron Fist, from an actual conversation around the gaming table tonight:

 

"The only interesting characters in Iron Fist were the Meachums."

"...You are literally the only person to think that. Including the actors who played the Meachums."

 

Nope. I thought Ward Meachum was the best character in the whole series. He actually had an arc where he grew as a character. By far the best character in the whole Iron Fist show, if you look at character development as important. I thought that the actor did a great job of taking the character from Arrogant Ass, to Broken Junkie, to Redemption. I'm sure there is a TVTrope name for those, but I'm not interested. Somebody else can provide those.

 

I also liked Danny Rand, but only after I put into perspective that his character was still the entitled child that crashed in the plane. His parent's ends were tragic and they drove him to seek comfort with his extended "family," which turned out to be bad. His identity is centered around two things; family and his training as the Iron Fist. He hasn't grown up yet. This may not be the Iron Fist from the comic books, but the character makes perfect sense if you strip the expectations of 30-40 years of comic book history away and accept him as the character that was portrayed.

[bigdamnhero]

Nope. I thought Ward Meachum was the best character in the whole series.

I'll let my friend know he's not alone.

 

I thought Ward could have been an interesting character in a different show. But I felt like nothing that went on at Rand Inc had any relationship to the overall plot of the series (to the point there was one), so I couldn't really get invested in it. I'll grant you that the actor did a decent job.

[Christopher R Taylor]

the character makes perfect sense if you strip the expectations of 30-40 years of comic book history away and accept him as the character that was portrayed.

 

 

Its a way to present Danny Rand, I agree.  Not necessarily a good way, but a way.  Too bad he wasn't as good a martial artist as he is supposed to be.  Apparently K'un L'un isn't a very impressive school,

[BoloOfEarth]

Apparently K'un L'un isn't a very impressive school,

 

Maybe it was an online school?

[zslane]

Sure, the Meachums were "interesting", but the Iron Fist show I was given wasn't the Iron Fist show I was looking forward to. Not even close. So no matter how good some of the performances/characters were, it was all in service to a storyline I felt was a complete waste of valuable production time and money.

 

I can only surmise that the folks who kinda liked Iron Fist had no ideas going into it what would constitute a great Iron Fist show, and so had few, if any reasons to be disappointed. They and I are not of the same tribe, that's for sure.

[Nolgroth]

That's valid. To be honest,Iron Fist was a mixed bag for me. It couldn't decide if it wanted to be a kung fu show, supernatural horror, a superhero show, or a late night soap opera. That lack of cohesiveness damaged the show.

[zslane]

Yeah, I agree with you there, Nolgroth.

 

A lot of folks will take the position that if Iron Fist had chosen one of those things to be and done it well, then it would have satisfied them. But I don't feel that way. I wanted something fairly specific, and anything else was likely to disappoint. But even I couldn't have predicted all the ways the show actually let me down.

 

I wanted it to take place in Kun-Lun for the first half, and be something akin to Into the Badlands in terms of spectacular martial arts action and brisk pacing. I wanted Danny Rand to be a more or less fully formed "Immortal Iron Fist" from the very start, not some lost puppy still struggling with his childhood trauma. I wanted this show to be different from the others in its willingness to give us a character who had already accepted his call to heroic action. I wanted highly stylized costuming--at least in Kun-Lun--along the lines of Mortal Kombat or Into the Badlands. I really wanted this show to have its own unique identity before homogenizing itself into the gritty streets-of-NY aspect of Danny's journey that would, ultimately, lead him to meet the others and become a founding member of the Defenders.

 

What I got left me completely unimpressed with Danny as both a martial artist and as an immortal guardian of a mystical realm modeled on the aesthetics and traditions of the Far East (which we never really got to see, much less explore). Those 13 episodes were a complete waste of Marvel's money and my (viewing) time. The only good thing that came out of it IMO was Colleen Wing, but the show isn't supposed to be about her.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah I was kind of looking forward to a fish out of water scenario, not a rich boy coming back home to comfort zone whining about his past.  I wanted him to be like Kwai Chang Caine wandering NYC doing good deeds and being absolutely blistering as martial artist, wearing clothes that just did not fit in.  What a stupid missed opportunity.

[Tjack]

I tried asking this question before but I never got a solid answer? What point value do you think the movie Avengers run at? 500-750 or 750-1000?

Where do you think the Defenders are? Straight 250 starting characters or more like 250 -500.

[zslane]

Depends on the edition of Champions you're talking about.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Defenders are pretty low power, yeah.  Not a ton of points for any of them.  YOu could probably whip up TV Daredevil for like 250 points easy.  Maybe cheaper.

[Old Man]

5e writeups from newmuse.com: 

Thor

Iron Man

Hulk

Cap

 

Surbrook's 6e writeups:

Iron Man

Cap

Hulk

Black Widow

Luke Cage

 

tl;dr Builds differ radically but Avenger points look to be ~400-600 in 5e and ~700-800 in 6e.  I find Surbrook's builds to be a bit OP but then again he is far better at this sort of thing than I.  In particular this version of Luke Cage looks like Avengers Luke Cage rather than Defenders Luke Cage.

[bigdamnhero]

A lot of folks will take the position that if Iron Fist had chosen one of those things to be and done it well, then it would have satisfied them. But I don't feel that way. I wanted something fairly specific, and anything else was likely to disappoint. .

I try really hard not to let my preconceptions run away with me, as very few shows/movies match with what's in my head. Sometimes they're better, sometimes worse, but rarely are they exactly "how I would've done it." So I'm one of those people who would've been happy with any Iron Fist show that wasn't boring & unfocused, with uneven acting and sub-par stunt work. Sadly...

[zslane]

Yeah, I hear you. For the most part I don't usually have much of a vision for a show before hand either. But Iron Fist was different. I had a much clearer vision for the show than Marvel did, and a much better one IMO. But it also would have taken more time and more money. My version of the show, whatever its merits, would never have been made, especially given Marvel/Disney's general lack of enthusiasm for the property. I get the distinct impression they made the show strictly to meet a contractual obligation with Netflix, not because they had any genuine interest in making an Iron Fist show. The whole thing was a tragic, wasted opportunity to do something special, in my view.

[Nolgroth]

Maybe genre burnout is spreading to the people making the shows. Maybe they just got the wrong creative team in place. At any rate, the show had a lot of unrealized potential. I'm not sure I want a full on Mortal Combat scenario, but a Game of Death style thing would have been neat. At any rate, focus less on the business drama and more on the kung-fu action. 

 

I kind of got the impression that the rough choreography was intentional. I don't know where I got the idea, but it seems the kind of thing that the creative team was going for. A way to show that, while talented and skilled, Danny hasn't mastered his technique yet. Keep in mind that I read this nowhere. It is just my own impression from watching the show.

[Nolgroth]

I tried asking this question before but I never got a solid answer? What point value do you think the movie Avengers run at? 500-750 or 750-1000?

Where do you think the Defenders are? Straight 250 starting characters or more like 250 -500.

 

Avengers: High Powered Superhero | Defenders: Low Powered Superhero

 

If I were running such a game. If you need page references to see what point ranges, I can crack open my books. Just not in the mood to move too much right now.

[zslane]

I kind of got the impression that the rough choreography was intentional. I don't know where I got the idea, but it seems the kind of thing that the creative team was going for. A way to show that, while talented and skilled, Danny hasn't mastered his technique yet. Keep in mind that I read this nowhere. It is just my own impression from watching the show.

 

My understanding is that the lackluster fight choreography was primarily due to the fact that Finn Jones had to do most of the stunt work himself since his character didn't wear a mask and it was nearly impossible to replace him with a stunt double. Sadly, the production was so rushed that he had virtually zero time to train or learn the choreography, with many fight routines being invented only days or hours before shooting.

 

My problem with the notion of a Danny Rand that hasn't yet mastered the essentials of his art is that I don't believe for a second he could have defeated Shao-Lao.

[Lord Liaden]

And there's the rub. Facing Shou-Lao to win the title and power of the Iron Fist was supposed to be the ultimate test for the proven finest fighter produced by a society dedicated to the martial arts. Iron Fist is the Living Weapon, not some kid still learning his way.

[Nolgroth]

Yeah. Part of the problem is that using the name "Iron Fist" brings with it a certain expectation of competence and probably content. While the vast majority of the people who watched Iron Fist had no such expectation or pre-existing knowledge of just who Iron Fist is, the internet is only a few mouseclicks (or finger swipes) away.

[bigdamnhero]

Part of the problem is that using the name "Iron Fist" brings with it a certain expectation of competence and probably content.

I hear you. But honestly, I think that was the least of the show's problems.

[Bazza]

Still yet to watch it...

[Hermit]

For the most part, Marvel Studios has been making pizza... when it's good, it's very good. And even when it's not that great, it's edible 

 

I liked Thor 2 for the humor and banter between Thor and Loki quite a bit, and a certain Queen's part was...well, hats off to her.

 

I really enjoyed Iron Man 3. One of the few 'hey let's insert a kid' times in movies that improved it... and House Party was fun to watch. Not crazy about their take on the Mandarin, but I didn't hate the twist either.

 

Didn't like Iron Man 2, but in this case it was Justin Hammer that had me going 'blah' (Which makes me a hypocrite about the Mandarin I suppose) . But even it had some cool moments. It wasn't bad, and had good moments, it just didn't compare to IM1.

 

I've adored each and every Captain America Movie Marvel/Disney has done so far. Even if the Civil War one was largely Avengers 2.5 it still gave Cap a lot of limelight. I know many people who were blah about Captain America: First Avenger and I'm like... "Are you crazy? it was awesome!" but different strokes.

 

 

Naturally, there was a lot I liked about Iron Fist, which has some going "But it's terrible" and I'm like "It's edible with some really nice topping now and then" 

[bigdamnhero]

I know many people who were blah about Captain America: First Avenger and I'm like... "Are you crazy? it was awesome!" but different strokes.

I liked Cap 1. The first half I agree was awesome. But the back half, while fun, felt to me like they were rushing through a lot of really good stuff so they could get him into the modern world as fast as possible. I wouldn't say blah, I just think it could've been a stronger movie if they'd been a bit less worried about setting up the Avengers and a little more focused on "living in the moment."

 

But again, even at its worst it's still lightyears ahead of anything DC/WB has done since Dark Knight.