Christopher R Taylor Posted July 27, 2018 Report Share Posted July 27, 2018 Quote But that's what happened. The 50's and 60'are loaded with sci-fi and atomic horror. Except that didnt replace westerns, it was concurrent with the huge western boom. And for every sci fi movie, there were like 3 westerns at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazza Posted July 27, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 27, 2018 9 hours ago, zslane said: Oversaturation isn't the problem. The problem is pervasive, low quality writing/storytelling. The real reason we don't watch half the superhero shows on tv is that they aren't good enough to waste our time on. The thing is, if they don't keep trying by making more new shows each year, then there's never a chance that a good one will come along, so proliferation is a necessary evil. We need Hollywood to put out roughly ten shows for us to get just one good one (it turns out Sturgeon was right). Mostly agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazza Posted July 27, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 27, 2018 Hopes Marvel does limited series on TV. Suggestions include Squadron Supreme, & Marvels. If needed they can be multiple seasons to fully tell the story. What it is not is a potentially ongoing concern. It has a set beginning and and an end, planned from the start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazza Posted July 27, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 27, 2018 Count me in on those who believe superheroes are the new western. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slikmar Posted July 27, 2018 Report Share Posted July 27, 2018 1 hour ago, Bazza said: Hopes Marvel does limited series on TV. Suggestions include Squadron Supreme, & Marvels. If needed they can be multiple seasons to fully tell the story. What it is not is a potentially ongoing concern. It has a set beginning and and an end, planned from the start. Squadron might be tough. Course, if they did a good series, would really be a slap at the DCEU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clnicholsusa Posted July 27, 2018 Report Share Posted July 27, 2018 If they wanted to start a limited series, but have the potential of continuing the series without having to keep the cast on the books, it would be best to center the series on a location. Project Pegasus would work, and would allow them to pull in characters from other works when it was feasible without requiring them to do so. Besides, they'd get to use Wundarr the Aquarian and who doesn't love THAT character. archer 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted July 27, 2018 Report Share Posted July 27, 2018 Yeah I think doing limited series stories is the best way to handle these shows rather than an ongoing show, at least the way they are handling it. If they dropped the need for the overarching meta story that each season builds to and just told stories, they could go on but they insist on a Big Story each season, so dip into the limited series and graphic novel library and do it right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zslane Posted July 27, 2018 Report Share Posted July 27, 2018 I don't really know what it means to "be the new Western". I don't see any meaningful similarities between the Western genre and the sci-fi action adventure genre that is used as the delivery vehicle for costumed crime-fighter storytelling on tv and in movies today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazza Posted July 27, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 27, 2018 It is not the style of the genre but the way it has impacted culture, and for the length it has, if we go back to X-Men 1 when it really started. Yes there were superhero tv shoes & films before, but not in the same volume as there is now. So far it is about 18 years. The western genre was popular in the 30s and still had popularity to the 60s. That is basically my observation. Christopher R Taylor 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazza Posted July 27, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 27, 2018 And Disney & Fox's shareholders have approved the merger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted July 27, 2018 Report Share Posted July 27, 2018 Yeah its not about genre and story similarities, its about the sudden surge of broad popularity and success, as well as cultural impact. Every little boy was a buckaroo, all the kids played cowboys and indians, they wore costumes, got toy cap guns, the themes and slang and tropes of westerns were popular in culture. Its the same kind of cultural event and level of popular media influence as westerns used to be. And I suspect for some of the same reasons (good vs evil, justice, men being manly, tough times overcome by virtue, hard work, and skill, etc). Themes largely lost in popular culture being regained in this genre -- things that people like and wanted, but the drivers of fashion and entertainment don't particularly care for. Bazza 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zslane Posted July 27, 2018 Report Share Posted July 27, 2018 Okay, I see where you're coming from. I guess to me it is critically important to ask why a particular genre resonated with a culture, because that tells you both why it was popular and why its popularity faded. A lot of people seem to be comparing Superheroes to Westerns on the basis of current popularity, and then predicting the eventual demise of superheroes (like happened to Westerns) merely because of that superficial similarity of "mass popularity". They neglect to take into account all the crucial ways that superhero storytelling differs from the Western, and because of that I feel their dire predictions are completely off base. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted July 27, 2018 Report Share Posted July 27, 2018 Well westerns are still being made, a couple a year. They just don't enjoy the gigantic popularity they once had, nor the broad cultural influence. In time, superhero films and TV won't be as popular as they are now, all things change over time except death and taxes. pinecone and Bazza 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazza Posted July 27, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 27, 2018 A recent western is Godless. Both the Western & Superhero are generated from America. The Western could be an halcyon way for America in the 30s onwards to regain/remember a time that had recently past, eg 1880s. There were likely people living then who remembered The Old West. Superheroes to my current thinking are a postmodern mythology of sorts. The Greek heroes like Hercules & Achilles are still with us but now go under the names of Superman & Captain America. They resonate in part due to the deep nature of justice as a Platonic ideal, and fullfils that part of self looking for connection & belonging. Superheroes become simplifies models for action & leadership. Superheroes become a symbolic story that explains reality -- in which it becomes a mythology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted July 27, 2018 Report Share Posted July 27, 2018 Actually, when you think about it there are some strong similarities between the Western and Superhero genres, at least in their traditional, pre-deconstructionist forms. Both revolve around individual protagonists of exceptional ability and will. These protagonists use their abilities to defend the weak, to promote justice, and to support law and peace. They act as champions against forces too strong or numerous for lesser people to oppose. They typically fight not for their own reward, but in the service of what they believe to be right. pinecone, Bazza and Christopher R Taylor 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazza Posted July 27, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 27, 2018 Same hero, different mask. Mask referring to Campbell's 'Hero with 1000 faces' not a mask to hide a secret identity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted July 27, 2018 Report Share Posted July 27, 2018 6 minutes ago, Bazza said: A recent western is Godless. Both the Western & Superhero are generated from America. The Western could be an halcyon way for America in the 30s onwards to regain/remember a time that had recently past, eg 1880s. There were likely people living then who remembered The Old West. Superheroes to my current thinking are a postmodern mythology of sorts. The Greek heroes like Hercules & Achilles are still with us but now go under the names of Superman & Captain America. They resonate in part due to the deep nature of justice as a Platonic ideal, and fullfils that part of self looking for connection & belonging. Superheroes become simplifies models for action & leadership. Superheroes become a symbolic story that explains reality -- in which it becomes a mythology. Absolutely. The superhero genre is in many ways the mythology of America. As the classical heroes embodied the beliefs and values of their cultures, superheroes embody what Americans have traditionally held to be right: truth, justice, and the rule of law; the responsibility of the strong to protect the weak, not exploit them; all people being fundamentally equal and deserving of respect, even if a few are gifted far beyond the many. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zslane Posted July 27, 2018 Report Share Posted July 27, 2018 I suppose if you re-imagine the modern world as one huge lawless frontier, then sure, superheroes are like cowboys, I guess. But I think those comparisons are fairly superficial, since in Westerns the protagonist is acting in the absence of a strong governmental presence, where he has to carve out some semblance of law and justice on his own because there is none to depend on. Superheroes are more like populist heroes like Robin Hood and the Scarlet Pimpernel where they are operating, subversively, within the confines of a well-established order, to bring justice to those who are marginalized. Moreover, Westerns don't feature "team" play like superheroes do, because that genre is almost entirely focused on the individual and not the exploits of a group on a mission (note that The Magnificent Seven isn't really a Western, but The Seven Samurai dressed up in cowboy costumes). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazza Posted July 27, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 27, 2018 Gangs = teams. The Hole In The Wall Gang, a team of likeminded people who rob trains. Like Billy the Kid, some/many outlaws were forced by circumstance into outlawry in order to survive. They weren't villains, and were decent people, eg Doc Scurlock. His "gang", likeminded pals, a "family". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted July 27, 2018 Report Share Posted July 27, 2018 Lone Ranger = masked superhero Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazza Posted July 27, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 27, 2018 3 hours ago, Bazza said: And Disney & Fox's shareholders have approved the merger. Disney is one step closer to taking on Netflix - Quartzhttps://qz.com/1342321/disney-and-21st-century-fox-shareholders-agree-to-merger/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zslane Posted July 27, 2018 Report Share Posted July 27, 2018 The Lone Ranger is definitely a character that pre-figures the masked superhero. However, that doesn't make superhero movies equivalent to Westerns. Be careful of tripping into logical fallacies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranxerox Posted July 27, 2018 Report Share Posted July 27, 2018 46 minutes ago, Bazza said: Gangs = teams. The Hole In The Wall Gang, a team of likeminded people who rob trains. Like Billy the Kid, some/many outlaws were forced by circumstance into outlawry in order to survive. They weren't villains, and were decent people, eg Doc Scurlock. His "gang", likeminded pals, a "family". Can't tell. Is this post meant ironically? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted July 27, 2018 Report Share Posted July 27, 2018 I hope so; Billy the Kid was not a nice guy. Arguably he was the product of his upbringing, though. The Western genre continued into the mid-seventies with Josey Wales in 1976, whereupon Western popularity/production just fell off a cliff. One wonders whether the success of Star Wars might be directly responsible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazza Posted July 27, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 27, 2018 50 minutes ago, Ranxerox said: Can't tell. Is this post meant ironically? Nope. Billy's life is a tragedy. And short. All up he killed 4 people not 22 and was blamed for many things other more ruthless outlaws did. Have a read of this. https://www.billythekidoutlawgang.com/blank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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