Marvel Cinematic Universe, Phase Three and BEYOOOOONND

[Hermit]

I myself am expecting the restoration of everyone else lost, but at the cost of Tony and Steve who make a big sacrifice play.. when the proverbial smoke clears, only two things remain

a shield, and a helmet's face plate.

 

But that's just a theory

[slikmar]

It is a trope, but Steve needs to take Red Skull over the cliff where Thanos threw Gamora as part of Steve sacrificing his life, to get rid of a greater evil. Would be apt and would be a shoutout to Holmes taking Moriarty over the falls. Tony needs to sacrifice himself to bring Peter back, I think. Looking at Peter being the future and not himself.

And after watching preview, they can, once again, just take my money.

[Hermit]

As far as ranking ….mmm still haven't seen Captain Marvel. Not sure if we're talking 'best' or 'favorites'... which are not always the same. There are movies I can recognize as utterly amazing, but are either the wrong genre for me, or just don't make me feel as much personally, or don't have the same rewatch value.

 

Favorites? Well ones with a * can likely be swaped with other near it also so marked, depending on mood.

* 1) Captain America Winter Soldier (I loved first avenger, but this movie takes that one's lessons and shows it in brilliant practice as Steve Rogers, patriot, remains loyal enough to his country's ideals to defy those in power. It sets the seeds for CA: Civil War)

* 2) Captain America First Avenger (I like period films now and then anyway, and I've been waiting for a GOOD Cap movie live action all my life. Much bias perhaps, but this hit the important parts of who Steve is for me)

3) Avengers (The rich ripe fruit of Marvel Studio's miracle gardenining, every Avenger has a moment, humor laced but high stakes are not diminished by that)

4) Ant-Man (Surprised? SO am I. I enjoy the occasional thief with a heart of gold set up, and Scott Lang movie version won me over. And Pym? Oh wow... You could see the nod to the anger issues without duplicating the mistake of the comics. All around a very pleasant surprise)

*5) Iron Man (RDJ makes a B list hero an A level star, and nails it so perfectly its going to be hard to imagine anyone else's voice for a while. We meet Coulson. Pepper is a smart cookie. This is...well, damn good)

* 6) Black Panther (Pulp influences often go unmentioned but they are rife through out this film. Shuri threatens to steal the show but they made MAN APE work... yeah. )

7) Doctor Strange (The Ancient One is actually a bit of a defect here, in trying to run away from one risky racial cliché, they lost something. Oh she does fine, but meh. The rest of the movie though? Arrogant Doctor learns redemption through the mystic arts? Wong an equal. gold)

8 ) Captain America Civil War (Honestly this should be higher, but hey I'm talking favorites not best. It is perhaps too bitter sweet for me to want to watch it a lot)

9) Guardians of the Galaxy (A-holes Assemble!)

10) Spider-Man Homecoming ('MJ' is..jarring, like someone in the studios decided to tease the fans then yank the rug from under them. Dimmed my fun a bit. Otherwise, every bit what a Spider-Man movie ought to be. A young hero doing the right thing when even his sense of self is on the line)

11) Iron Man 3 (Am I the only one on the planet who liked that kid?)

12) Avengers: Age of Ultron (Honestly, I don't think about this movie much, but I always sit down and watch when I see it on. I think I remember it being worse than it is, as it has some moments that are laugh out loud funny ,and even Hawkeye gets his moments of humor and inspiration where he is almost the guy he should be)

13) Ant Man and Wasp (Sue me, I like the crew. Scott Lang remains awesome as a dad. The Bill Foster reference made me smile..also? "Baba Yaga")

14) Guardians of the Galaxy 2 (I should like this one more. While Quill's story, I actually think Yondu and Rocket had the stand out scenes)

15) Thor Ragnorok (I don't hate it, I don't hate any of these. I'm glad I saw it, it was funny, it made me laugh, but I can't help but think the damage wasn't worth the pay off. Waste of the Warriors three and that's just the start)

16) Thor (The first... actually amazing set, good intro of Loki and Thor... but that last chapter of it so to speak felt rushed and a bit anti climatic.)

17) Avengers Infinity War (i'm a bit stunned this isn't higher up. I think because, as a comic reader? Very little surprised me in it. It was a part one, and the idiot ball got passed around a bit too much. Honestly, good stuff, served it's purpose, but when the part I remember BEST is Doctor Strange holding Thanos for an amazing minute or so it's just not staying with me.)

18)  Thor Dark World (The love interest who slept walk through her romance, and her dorky side kick really hurt this movie for me. Loki and Thor's brotherly banter isn't enough to elevate it but I did enjoy the lines)

19) The Incredible Hulk (Oddly liked Banner and Betty's interactions and some of the action scenes were good.)

20) Iron man 2 (Cannot state how much I didn't like their take on Justin Hammer, and the main big bad did little for me) 

 

Of course, ask me next month and it might scramble more than I thought

[RDU Neil]

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

I wonder whether there is even one other person who left the theatre after IW expecting the MCU would continue with half the universe's population disintegrated, especially when one of those has a movie coming out shortly.  I'm pretty sure Spider-man is coming back.  I'm also trying to recall any comic book where an event this massive would not be undone in some manner.

 

I would rather not see a reboot, although I could see it as the excuse to re-cast major characters as current actors resign from the roles, or age beyond them, appealing to the producers.  That's the same reason we don't have Grandpa America Steve Rogers, and the FF in geriatric care, in the comics.

 

One of the reasons I like the movies is that they were NOT doing the "no one ages, nothing changes" crap that happens in the comics. I really DO want to read about the next generation of the heroes and see characters die of old age, retire, what have you. The pathos of Vision being unchanging while Wanda ages and dies would add the gravitas I want, for example. To have 75 years of comics be truly continuing... and be reading Thor and him reminiscing about Jane Foster, when those of us who read the comics also remember watching her grow old and die... how powerful would stories like that be? To see Peter Parker grow up, and old, and have kids and whatever... not in some What If? but in continuity. To not still be reading about Tony Stark... but maybe Happy and Pepper's grown up daughter having taken on the mantle... whatever. Sam Wilson as the aged, OG hero comparing his time in the 70's to the Black Lives Matter era Falcon... not still be the same age as he was in the 70s. 

That is what I want in my comics more than anything... but never get. Real, literate, consummate world building that encompasses change over the decades. 

Edit: Think how powerful and resonant the scenes with Cap and the now aged and failing Peggy Carter were. THAT was powerful story telling. That was epic tragedy. That gave us a reason to really care about the characters. When you divorce them from repercussions, from the human elements of time and aging and change... they become pointless. That the MCU necessarily has to let things change and grow, and time pass in a way the comics never do... that makes them so much better IMO, than the comics every have been since the early 80's. (The last time they held to continuity and advanced the characters, and were willing to evolve the Marvel universe under the guidance of a strong editorial direction.)

[RDU Neil]

34 minutes ago, Hermit said:

11) Iron Man 3 (Am I the only one on the planet who liked that kid?

 

I love Iron Man 3 and the whole Stark/Little Kid part was pure gold. My favorite of the IM movies. (Huge Shane Black fan, so what can I say...)

[Hermit]

46 minutes ago, RDU Neil said:

 

I love Iron Man 3 and the whole Stark/Little Kid part was pure gold. My favorite of the IM movies. (Huge Shane Black fan, so what can I say...)

 

Fair. I liked a LOT about it and some of the problems I had with it faded in time. I guess mostly "only the fun" remains, and yes, Tony gets that great lesson about the man and the machine blah blah

But the character of the Kid was gold. I want him to appear in a movie as a new Hire for Stark, maybe a brilliant Intern

[Scott Ruggels]

7 hours ago, Starlord said:

 

Now, THAT is an awesome trailer!

Just making sure this trailer  is on the current page XD.

[zslane]

So does this mean Kate Bishop is being set up to take over for daddy Hawkeye?

[Lawnmower Boy]

2 hours ago, zslane said:

So does this mean Kate Bishop is being set up to take over for daddy Hawkeye?

I should very much like to see this thing. 

[slikmar]

I think I am right with Hermit's list above, funnily, for pretty much same reasons. I would put Captain Marvel it just below the levels of IM and BP.

[RDU Neil]

30 minutes ago, Lawnmower Boy said:

I should very much like to see this thing. 

 

If they actually go the Kate Bishop takes over Hawkeye route, I will forgive a lot. That would be awesome.

[Greywind]

Black Panther

Spider-Man

Doctor Strange

 

All dust, and yet all due for already announced sequels.

[Jagged]

I think I am one of the few that place Capt Marvel above BP.

 

Both are middle ranking MCU movies for me. But I found the BP brother rivalry plot less interesting than the amnesia plot. Plus the CGI fight in BP between the brothers was very poor. Especially when the fights using the real actors was so much better. 

 

I was trying to work out why some CGI fights really annoy me but others get a pass? 

I think it is because some, like in Doctor Strange or Captain Marvel aren't actually the climax of the movie (looking at you Wonder Woman). When they are supposed to supply the story's high point, I feel cheated. 

 

 

[Bazza]

For me CM is easily above BP. 

[Hugh Neilson]

19 hours ago, RDU Neil said:

One of the reasons I like the movies is that they were NOT doing the "no one ages, nothing changes" crap that happens in the comics.

 

No?  Who aged and died in MCU, but not in the comics?  Maybe the Howling Commandos (who lacked Nick Fury because he was already in the modern era).  The ones with hard links to WW II are tough, since their starting point can't be a moving target.

 

19 hours ago, RDU Neil said:

I really DO want to read about the next generation of the heroes and see characters die of old age, retire, what have you. The pathos of Vision being unchanging while Wanda ages and dies would add the gravitas I want, for example. To have 75 years of comics be truly continuing... and be reading Thor and him reminiscing about Jane Foster, when those of us who read the comics also remember watching her grow old and die... how powerful would stories like that be? To see Peter Parker grow up, and old, and have kids and whatever... not in some What If? but in continuity. To not still be reading about Tony Stark... but maybe Happy and Pepper's grown up daughter having taken on the mantle... whatever. Sam Wilson as the aged, OG hero comparing his time in the 70's to the Black Lives Matter era Falcon... not still be the same age as he was in the 70s. 

That is what I want in my comics more than anything... but never get. Real, literate, consummate world building that encompasses change over the decades.

 

What genre has actually done this?  I suppose a few comic strips (For Better or for Worse springs to mind).  Star Trek, after a fashion (but where are the evolutions now, with the TOS reboot?).  The next generation of Star Wars has not exactly thrilled the fans.  Marvel did an experiment with the New Universe, back in the '80s, with the up front commitment that a year in real time would be a year in the comics.  That wasn't very successful (but not, in fairness, for that reason).

 

Long-running TV and movie franchises have to either replace actors or let characters age, die, be replaced, etc. since the actors age themselves.  That would be why Sean Connery hasn't been James Bond for a few decades, and Dr. Who did not end when William Hartnell's health forced his retirement.

 

By this logic, though, we should not have Superman, Batman or Wonder Woman much past the 1960's, though (or they get an Immortality Card while their supporting cast rotates out).  The classic MCU also should largely be retired, if not dead.

 

Practically, those new characters rarely sell as well as the classic characters, exceptions like the new Ms. Marvel and Kate Bishop Hawkeye (neither of whom took over for cultural icons) notwithstanding.  Back in the '70s, Nova #1 touted him as the New Spider-Man - he lasted 25 issues.  Ms. Marvel Carol Danvers did not do much better on her first outing, nor did the She-Hulk.  They became long-lasting characters, but not at the level of even the pre-MCU B Listers like Iron Man.

 

Were you a fan of the replacement Batman and Wonder Woman many years back?  Should Superman have stayed dead after Doomsday, replaced by the new Superboy and Steel? 

 

Who would buy a monthly book (much less several) about retired superhero Peter Parker working a 9 to 5 job and raising a couple of kids?  We could shift the focus to a new Spider-Man, but how contrived is it that someone gained similar powers, much less someone so closely connected to Peter Parker that we still look in on his life on a monthly basis?

 

I think the market has been pretty clear about whether we should phase out the old and bring in the new.  Practically, that will happen only when the old stops selling (like Supers did in the late '40s/early '50s) and later get revived with new characters filling the old roles (DC; Marvel to a lesser extent in the late '50s to early 60s) or brand-new characters (less in DC, more in Marvel).

[Hugh Neilson]

20 hours ago, RDU Neil said:

Edit: Think how powerful and resonant the scenes with Cap and the now aged and failing Peggy Carter were. THAT was powerful story telling. That was epic tragedy. That gave us a reason to really care about the characters. When you divorce them from repercussions, from the human elements of time and aging and change... they become pointless. That the MCU necessarily has to let things change and grow, and time pass in a way the comics never do... that makes them so much better IMO, than the comics every have been since the early 80's. (The last time they held to continuity and advanced the characters, and were willing to evolve the Marvel universe under the guidance of a strong editorial direction.)

 

But the very example you provide would not have existed had Cap aged and died, rather than being frozen in the arctic, miraculously suspended between moments, and revived 7 decades later, would it?  I don't recall a lot of major Marvel characters aging, dying or passing the torch in the '80s, but maybe you can refresh my memory.

 

It seems to me like Carol Danvers returned, Jen Walters returned, and the old mainstays carried on carrying on.  Didn't X-Factor bring back Jean Grey in the '80s (I suppose she also died in the '80s, in fairness)?  I assume you detest Winter Soldier for unwinding the tragedy of Bucky's WW II death while Cap lived on, and bringing him back, still youthful and vibrant, correct?

[Scott Ruggels]

This one may be for RDU Neil, in that Infinity War followed roughly Jim Starlin's story. It was very broad strokes, but the snapping of fingers was there. IF this is so, then, I fear you may be "Disappointed".  However it is what I would expect,.... if it's following the resolution of the Thanos plot in the comics, But those comics were a couple of decades ago, and dead history is what happens before one was born.

[Greywind]

Honestly, I'd love to see a living world comic series. Hard to do on a monthly basis with limited pages. Main reason comics companies don't do this is Brand/Name Recognition and marketing.

[Scott Ruggels]

9 minutes ago, Greywind said:

Honestly, I'd love to see a living world comic series. Hard to do on a monthly basis with limited pages. Main reason comics companies don't do this is Brand/Name Recognition and marketing.

Living World?

[Greywind]

Characters age, grow old, die, someone else takes up the mantle or they're forgotten as an urban legend.

[Jagged]

How old is Spiderman exactly?

 

[zslane]

Peggy Carter aged and died like a normal person. Tony Stark has aged visibly during his tenure as Iron Man; and if you count the young version of him we see in the holographic simulation, the MCU definitely acknowledges that Tony has grown up and aged like a normal person as well. Nick Fury has definitely aged (thanks to digital de-aging fx) during his time with SHIELD. The thing is, the MCU has only been around for a decade, telling stories that mostly take place during that one decade. There simply hasn't been enough time to notice that a character has failed to age "properly", if in fact that is ever going to happen (outside of characters that age much more slowly than humans, like Asgardians).

[RDU Neil]

1 hour ago, zslane said:

Peggy Carter aged and died like a normal person. Tony Stark has aged visibly during his tenure as Iron Man; and if you count the young version of him we see in the holographic simulation, the MCU definitely acknowledges that Tony has grown up and aged like a normal person as well. Nick Fury has definitely aged (thanks to digital de-aging fx) during his time with SHIELD. The thing is, the MCU has only been around for a decade, telling stories that mostly take place during that one decade. There simply hasn't been enough time to notice that a character has failed to age "properly", if in fact that is ever going to happen (outside of characters that age much more slowly than humans, like Asgardians).

 

I'm actually stating that this is true, and it is what I love about the MCU. Because we are dealing with real people (the actors) and real time passing (the movie chronology has basically aligned with real time)... we are getting a version of the Marvel Universe and characters who do actually "grow" (up and old) and a universe that does have continuity of time and resonance of consequences. These are things the comics have long since lost, and thus why the MCU is my current favorite version of Marvel. 

 

If you look at the first 25 years of Marvel, up to about the time Shooter took over, and definitely before they were sold, there was a strong continuity and a general sense of development over time. Look at Scott Summers between first appearance and the height of the Claremont/Byrne/Austin era... he went from a skinny teen to a grown man, dealing with significant relationship issues, etc. Look at Sue Storm becoming Invisible Woman, of the birth and raising of Franklin Richards (granted, he didn't grow up enough, but)... Look at Peter Parker going from skinny high schooler to a post-grad, then in the working world, becoming an adult, etc. Look at how they treated characters from earlier times (the Invaders and such) most/all aging and or dying, only Cap still young because of freak freezing, or Namor because he wasn't human. They killed Thunderbird, Captain Marvel, Jean Grey... and they had not brought them back, yet. It was NOT a perfect year-for-year alignment, but the Marvel Universe tended toward growing up as it expanded. Think of all the classic *See Issue #44 of the FF! type of blurbs that showed stories were being written with a conscious, shared history. 

I know that there are many market forces working against this kind of thing, but Marvel's original take was a purposeful shared universe in a way that had never been done before. It always promised more than it could deliver, but at least it tried in the first era. It has long since given up on that. The MCU had creative aspects that actually forces this to be the case. I also think the audience market would NOT stand for a casual reboot the way the Spider-man movies kept doing. Clearly audiences had tired of that, and once Spider-man was part of the MCU, I think that kind of "James Bond just keeps going, embodied by new guy over and over again" motif is played out. At least it will certainly be a much harder sell for modern audiences. (And it only worked when the main character/property existed solely on their own, not in a shared universe.) If the MCU supposedly continues, and ten years from now, they are have a third or fourth new actor playing Spider-man and he is still a teenager in high-school, I do NOT think audiences will go for it. If somehow the MCU continues and Spider-Man has five more movies over the next decade, I'd expect, and I think audiences would expect, that Peter Parker grows up with Tom Holland and we see that growth over the course of the films. THAT is the difference I think the MCU has made that the comics have long since abandoned. 

[Scott Ruggels]

I think only Gasoline Alley, in the comic strips did that, Greywind.   from 1918, until today. characters there aged about real time.  The baby found in 1919 fought in WW2, ran a gas station and is now a retired grandfather.  But on the whole, comic books are comodities, like cars and soap, so they have to maintain the interest of the market by being dynamic, yet familiar. So no, I don't think it's something one will see change. Look at the negative reaction when Coke changed their flavor.  Change ruins market expectations, and therefore is bad.

[L. Marcus]

Also, Judge Dredd.