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Marvel Cinematic Universe, Phase Three and BEYOOOOONND


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I think that Marvel does best when they take advantage of good writing and ideas rather than rewriting existing characters with a niche category.  It has to do with what your goal and ideas are: are we doing this because we think it will attract new readers by pandering, or because we have great ideas and great stories to tell? 

 

Thor's sales had been down for a while because it was bad writing and often bad art for years.  A fresh character always attracts lots of readers, for a while, but without the great writing and ideas they always fade away.  Overall Marvel's sales on all their titles, even their best-selling ones, are so low they'd have been straight up canceled in the 90s.

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1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I think that Marvel does best when they take advantage of good writing and ideas rather than rewriting existing characters with a niche category.  It has to do with what your goal and ideas are: are we doing this because we think it will attract new readers by pandering, or because we have great ideas and great stories to tell? 

 

Thor's sales had been down for a while because it was bad writing and often bad art for years.  A fresh character always attracts lots of readers, for a while, but without the great writing and ideas they always fade away.  Overall Marvel's sales on all their titles, even their best-selling ones, are so low they'd have been straight up canceled in the 90s.

 

 

Please show me some numbers.  The numbers that I found (link) only go to 1997, and they show an industry that has had good years and bad years but generally sells about 80 million physical copies a year, but has really grown their TPB and digital copy business.  In overview the industry appears to be doing fine.

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7 hours ago, Ranxerox said:

 

 

Please show me some numbers.  The numbers that I found (link) only go to 1997, and they show an industry that has had good years and bad years but generally sells about 80 million physical copies a year, but has really grown their TPB and digital copy business.  In overview the industry appears to be doing fine.

Oh, there you go, dragging facts into the conversation again

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To the question of re-casting and continuing with the same characters, we have criticized a lot of comic book movies and TV for not following the comic's model.  What is more "comic book Super" than new stories about the same character for 80+ years?  The reality is that, at least in their model, the established characters are a much safer bet than new characters. 

 

In September, 2011  DC tried a lot of new ideas in The New 52, with 52 books as the "First Wave".  Two years later, September of 2013, what was left from the First Wave?

 

5 books under the Justice League heading (Aquaman, Flash, Green Arrow, Justice League and Wonder Woman) out of 11 at the outset

 

11 books under the Batman heading - all 11 made it

 

4 books under the Superman heading - all 4  made it

 

4 books under the Green Lantern heading - all 4  made it

 

1 book under the Young Justice heading (Teen Titans) - out of 6 at the outset

 

3 books under "The Edge" (Stormwatch, Suicide Squad and All-Star Western) - out of 9

 

3 books under "The Dark" (Animal Man, Justice League Dark and Swamp Thing) - out of 7

 

Yup, the unusual concepts straying from the historical winners sure came out well, didn't they?

 

Why did DC do all the '90s reboots?  Not sure, but I would note that they killed Barry Allen in the Crisis, then rebooted Flash with Wally West taking over the mantle, and Mark Waid made that a stellar success.  Seems to suggest passing the torch could revitalize some older characters with marginal sales.  Waid himself noted in an interview that he felt a bit sorry for his successors.  He could do pretty much whatever he wanted, as no one had high expectations for the book.  Now, it was doing well and the higher-ups paid a lot more attention to anything that might change the winner.

 

It's not just comics - how much has Hero changed over its six editions?  When it does, even a bit?   "You took away comeliness/figured characteristics?  How DARE you!"

 

We'd never dram of recasting, say, James Bond, Captain Kirk or Dr. Who, right?  How DARE they cast a new Wonder Woman (Lynda Carter or no one), Batman (we miss you, Adam West) or Superman (Christopher Reeve)!  And who's this Arnell guy?  Justin Hartley is the Green Arrow!

 

I think you can do new characters or existing characters, re-cast or retaining the same roles, the same character or a legacy character (changed a little or a lot) well or poorly. 

 

That last item is the one we should be focused on.

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 I think a useful way to view this is to look at it from the reverse.


Let's recast Wonder Woman as a guy!  Wonder Dude!  Its fresh and exciting!  That Steel guy is too black, we need to change things up and make him a white person!

 

See how that seems and works?  Its cheap, lazy, and stupid.  Its even insulting.

 

Quote

Oh, there you go, dragging facts into the conversation again

 

Its also comparing apples to lamp posts.  I was referring to the sales of individual titles, not overall sales for the entire company including digital and resales of old trades, etc.  

 

Every industry analysis done indicates comics books are in dread state right now but do go on talking about how rosy things are for them.

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I don't quite understand why Marvel gets a bad rap for "lack of character development". Tony Stark, Thor, Loki, Bucky/Winter Soldier, T'Challa, Captain Marvel, Banner/Hulk, Dr. Strange, Nebula, and Spider-Man all go through clear character development, sometimes during a single film, other times over the course of several films. But the development is undeniably there in a way that isn't there for any DCEU character.

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In a single movie:

  • Tony Stark goes from arrogant weapons dealer to shutting down the weapons division of his company and becoming a superhero.
  • Thor goes from spoiled, arrogant, Asgardian prince to humbled hero who realizes he isn't fit to be king.
  • T'Challa goes from believing Wakanda should stay hidden and isolated (the "old way" of his father) to reaching out and sharing its science, technology, and culture with the world.
  • Dr. Strange goes from arrogant, narcissistic surgeon to sorcerer supreme protecting Earth and the multi-verse.

Other characters, like Nebula and Bucky were supporting characters who didn't enjoy the luxury of being the stars of their own movies in which to travel a full character development arc. For them it had to happen over the course of a larger story arc dedicated to other, more prominent, characters. I think it's only fair to nevertheless recognize their development despite the longer, draw-out trajectory it had to take.

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55 minutes ago, zslane said:

I don't quite understand why Marvel gets a bad rap for "lack of character development". Tony Stark, Thor, Loki, Bucky/Winter Soldier, T'Challa, Captain Marvel, Banner/Hulk, Dr. Strange, Nebula, and Spider-Man all go through clear character development, sometimes during a single film, other times over the course of several films. But the development is undeniably there in a way that isn't there for any DCEU character.


Marvel also gets a bad rap for excessive character development, e.g. “I don’t like Fat Thor! Thor would never  give up like that!”  The fan base will never be satisfied. 

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I completely understand where you're coming from, Bazza.

 

Sure, as just about anyone would, I like a bit of humor in my action movies. It helps keep them from becoming too grim. But when the humor strays into the realm of parody, I start to lose interest (and respect, for the characters). It's why I never warmed up to Venture Brothers, Batman: The Brave and the Bold, and am struggling a little with the new Harley Quinn cartoon. Fat Thor felt more like parody to me than simple humor.

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