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Marvel Cinematic Universe, Phase Three and BEYOOOOONND


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1 hour ago, Dr. MID-Nite said:

And then ruins it by becoming Beach Bum Thor. That's the whole point. And for whoever mentioned that this resembles Ultimate Thor...well...The Ultimates sucked.

 

This can't be laid at Hemsworth's feet. He was doing what was written for him and acting as the director(s) asked him to.

 

As for Ultimates Thor, he was more of an eco-hippie, not an Asgardian imitation of Jeffrey Lebowski. Moreover, Ultimates Thor was not out of shape. I really don't see much of a similarity.

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2 hours ago, zslane said:

 

This can't be laid at Hemsworth's feet. He was doing what was written for him and acting as the director(s) asked him to.

 

As for Ultimates Thor, he was more of an eco-hippie, not an Asgardian imitation of Jeffrey Lebowski. Moreover, Ultimates Thor was not out of shape. I really don't see much of a similarity.

 

Yes, as I mentioned earlier on the thread, one inspiration for this change in Thor was a story arc in the Guardians of the Galaxy comic -- that is, the original Guardians from a millennium in the future -- in which Loki had seized rulership of the Inhumans on the Moon, and was breeding them to be an army to seize Asgard. In that time line Asgard had experienced centuries of peace, which left warrior Thor bored and frustrated. He turned increasingly to food and drink for solace. When he started beating on Sif, his wife in this time, he found he was no longer worthy to lift Mjolnir, which exacerbated his self-destructive behavior.

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I don't see any threads of similarity between what led to Lebowski Thor in the MCU and the comic book storyline you refer to. Any such "inspiration" is solely in the mind of the writers/producers, as none of it appears on screen.

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6 hours ago, zslane said:

As for Ultimates Thor, he was more of an eco-hippie, not an Asgardian imitation of Jeffrey Lebowski. Moreover, Ultimates Thor was not out of shape. I really don't see much of a similarity.


I wasn't comparing Ultimates Thor to Lebowski Thor. I'm talking about the baseline. They grafted on some Ultimate Thor personality traits to 616 Thor, which he mostly is. Same with Cap being so willing to kill in the MCU, but still maintaining most of his original traits from the comics.

 

Anyway, I don't think either of us liked the end result much, so no point in beating a dead horse.

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What I mean is that the only way that comic served as an inspiration is the visuals of Thor turning soft, fat, and drunk. Feige dispensed with the cause of Thor's behavior in that comic, which was critical to making sense of it, IMO. You could argue that Thor lost his place in Asgardian society in both cases, but in my view the details matter tremendously here. What happened to MCU Thor was so different from what happened to comic book Thor (in the case you describe) that the response should also have been very different (again, IMO).

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7 hours ago, zslane said:

 

This can't be laid at Hemsworth's feet. He was doing what was written for him and acting as the director(s) asked him to.

 

As for Ultimates Thor, he was more of an eco-hippie, not an Asgardian imitation of Jeffrey Lebowski. Moreover, Ultimates Thor was not out of shape. I really don't see much of a similarity.

 

The story I heard was that Hemsworth was unhappy with the serious Thor and asked to "lighten up" the character and the writers accommodated him...not the other way around....at least going into Ragnarok.

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Hmmm...

 

Everyone has their opinion.

For me, Thor falling off the wagon was OK as a storyline.  The extra transition into Austin Powers enemy Fat B*astard was a bit too far in the "morinically stupid" direction and just didn't fit any Thor I had ever read.  

 

But once again, it is all opinion.

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5 hours ago, Pattern Ghost said:


I wasn't comparing Ultimates Thor to Lebowski Thor. I'm talking about the baseline. They grafted on some Ultimate Thor personality traits to 616 Thor, which he mostly is. Same with Cap being so willing to kill in the MCU, but still maintaining most of his original traits from the comics.

 

Anyway, I don't think either of us liked the end result much, so no point in beating a dead horse.

 

Where did Cap kill in the MCU?

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1 hour ago, Greywind said:

 

Where did Cap kill in the MCU?

 

Well, for starters, I'm pretty sure that Hydra trooper Cap threw out of the Red Skull's bomber didn't land lightly. Or the people in the Hydra tank when he threw grenades into it. I would think the Chitauri whose arm Cap cut off didn't have the best survival chances. The goons joining Winter Soldier's ambush likely didn't get up after he reflected the minigun barrage back onto them. And of the mercenaries serving Crossbones, Cap landed on one after at least a forty-foot drop, another Cap kicked a car into, while a third he kicked twenty feet into a concrete wall. We're talking broken bones and internal bleeding minimum.

 

MCU Captain America doesn't kill if he doesn't have to, and with his strength and skill he often doesn't. But if he has to he won't hesitate. He was a soldier.

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1 hour ago, Lord Liaden said:

MCU Captain America doesn't kill if he doesn't have to, and with his strength and skill he often doesn't. But if he has to he won't hesitate. He was a soldier.

 

This. And this is more in alignment with his Ultimates version showing him more in the light of the soldier he was in WW II. In one comic storyline, Cap was left with no choice but to take some hostage takers out with a rifle he borrowed, and a big deal was made of how reluctant he was to kill. MCU cap will pick up a gun and use it to full effect when called for, without any angst involved.

 

----------------------- 

 

These aren't all clear kills, but many of them are. The way it was edited was pretty funny, though:

 

 

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Like LL, Thor is my fav superhero. Similarly to LL and others, I’m disappointed in the change of direction of Thor from Ragnarok onwards. However if there was ever a choice of making a dislikeable Phase 3 Thor movie or not, then my preference would be to for Marvel to make it. Reason is simple: if Thor didn’t appear at all in Phase 3, then he would largely been forgotten. However as we know, Post-Ragnarok Thor has become quite popular and cemented himself as part of MCU’s Trinity (cf DC’s Trinity).  

 

Upon reflection over the weekend, Post-Ragnarok Thor is a Greek tragic figure. This may explain why he has resonated with so many. Example is that ‘Bro Thor’ has his own Funko Pop Vinyl figure.

 

Over the Christmas break, I rewatched all of Phase 3, except for Far From Home, and it occurred to me, that Thor The Dark World is THE linchpin film in the Infinity Saga as this is where it really begins – it is its origin. Events from The Dark World, necessary result in Avengers Endgame. Lets follow it, shall we. In The key event in the film is the reoccurrence of the Convergence which results in the reappearance of the Aether (Reality Stone). Long story, short, Loki fakes his death again, and usurps the throne and disposes Odin (we presume). This leaves Odin on a different path which results in his death (or ascension) which downs the barrier to Niflheim letting Hela loose. This event is the cause of Ragnarok, which ends with the destruction of Asgard by Surtur and the people of Asgard on the Statesman in which they are met by Sanctuary II – the opening scene of Infinity War. Hence a chain of events starting from the Convergence to the arrival of Thanos on the Statesmen.

 

Thor is, mostly, accounted for as at the end of The Dark World, he says to Odin (ie Loki) he wishes to be on Earth, and while on Earth he encounters Wanda who puts whammy’s him with a vision of the Infinity Stones in which beings his search and ends with the opening scene in Ragnarok. These Thor events are a case of post hoc ergo propter hoc, thus the word “mostly”. The missing cause is necessary connecting Wanda to the Convergence. On the flip side, it still highlights the importance of The Dark World to the overall Infinity Saga.

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5 hours ago, Greywind said:

I didn't realize getting hit with the shield was an instant kill.

 

It often isn't, although it certainly can be. In the movies as in the comics, Cap has the skill to make the shield hit like a bludgeon when he wants it to, and like a blade when he wants it to. He literally disarmed a Chitauri with it, and when he really wound up he could shred steel robots. But in that "kill count" video Pattern Ghost linked to, there were clearly hits which weren't lethal, although concussions or worse could be expected for their targets.

 

In interviews I've read and seen around Captain America: The Winter Soldier, the Russo Brothers talked about having Cap do a lot of what they called "mack shots," apparently a film term for a blow which obviously isn't lethal, but knocks opponents out and takes them out of the fight.

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I wish they'd remembered the shield's special defensive capabilities in that movie. You're not going to get knocked back by a kick or punch on that thing from a 170 lbs. guy, even if he is a super soldier, when it can absorb and redirect the impact of Thor swinging his hammer at it for all he's worth.

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45 minutes ago, Matt the Bruins said:

I wish they'd remembered the shield's special defensive capabilities in that movie. You're not going to get knocked back by a kick or punch on that thing from a 170 lbs. guy, even if he is a super soldier, when it can absorb and redirect the impact of Thor swinging his hammer at it for all he's worth.


A wise man once said of Cap’s shield, “That thing doesn’t obey the laws of physics at all.”

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I wish they'd remembered the shield's special defensive capabilities in that movie. You're not going to get knocked back by a kick or punch on that thing from a 170 lbs. guy, even if he is a super soldier, when it can absorb and redirect the impact of Thor swinging his hammer at it for all he's worth.

 

Yeah how the shield reacted to being impacted was completely random and based on what would the director decided would look good in a combat scene rather than logic or any established rules.

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For me, the Rule of Cool needs to be tempered with internal consistency at the very least. Realistic physics aren't necessarily to be expected in a superhero movie in any case, but if they establish rules for how things work, they should stick to them. Otherwise they fail to earn the drama they're trying to generate in their action scenes. This principle is just basic Writing/World-building 101, something any screenwriter worth their salt should know and practice in all their writing.

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