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Marvel Cinematic Universe, Phase Three and BEYOOOOONND


Bazza
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I think many of the problems are a bad mix of corporate culture and artistic creativity. 

 

Some of the more farfetched and edgy ideas in current comics could be good ones if they were done with original characters. But the industry either is currently incapable of unwilling to launch new titles to serve as a platform for the new stories.

 

And the new authors should have to come up with their own creations. You should have to be creative and innovative enough to tell your own original story with your own creations for at least two years before you're given  access to the company's pillars. Perhaps the thought of another newb hack being free reign over their babies would give them some pause before they launch an icon into stories bordering on dystopian fan fiction. 

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Given the low (financial) stakes involved in comics you'd think that would be where you'd see new characters introduced and used to explore new ideas the most, but I guess that's not the case. You won't see that in movies very often because of the massive financial risks involved. Studios feel they have to play it safe at all times, and so rather than create new characters they mutate existing characters to fit with the social agenda du jour. That's why there's such a big push to race- and gender-bend well-known, existing characters rather than invent new ones.

 

And as for writers who don't want to write superheroes, that extends to directors as well. For all his claims of loving the source material, Zach Snyder sure does love to tear the superhero genre apart and make it nearly unrecognizable.

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Yeah I feel like the state of comics now is by far the most open to wild, creative and innovative ideas in comic book history.  Why do I say this?  Because it does not need to make money.  Marvel Comics can totally lose money every month and still stay open because the movies make such ridiculous cash (or, at least, used to).  So why not go nuts, do new wild crazy things, why not try stuff that nobody thinks will work, why not give the creators total freedom?

 

Sadly, a certain rigid political viewpoint seems to be dominating the entire industry, which greatly limits the possibilities, and likely annoys a great deal of their customer base as well.  Stan Lee and Steve Ditko both had very strong political viewpoints (diametrically opposed) but they were able to restrain that in most of their work and make sure it was more broadly acceptable to the overall audience.

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19 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Yeah I feel like the state of comics now is by far the most open to wild, creative and innovative ideas in comic book history.  Why do I say this?  Because it does not need to make money.  Marvel Comics can totally lose money every month and still stay open because the movies make such ridiculous cash (or, at least, used to).  So why not go nuts, do new wild crazy things, why not try stuff that nobody thinks will work, why not give the creators total freedom?

 

Sadly, a certain rigid political viewpoint seems to be dominating the entire industry, which greatly limits the possibilities, and likely annoys a great deal of their customer base as well.  Stan Lee and Steve Ditko both had very strong political viewpoints (diametrically opposed) but they were able to restrain that in most of their work and make sure it was more broadly acceptable to the overall audience.

Straight up bad writing and poor characterization of characters isn't terribly helpful.  Writing intelligent characters as stupid so they'll fit into the story you want to tell rather then altering the story to fit the characters.  Deus ex machina to give the villain the upper hand doesn't really help matters either.  

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Superheroes survived for so long because they were about positive elements of humanity: ideals, principles, responsibility, compassion, hope. They represented the best in us, inspiring us to try to be better people ourselves. What I see of recent comics are full of cynicism, brutality, "edginess" for shock value rather than serving any purpose. Sound and fury, signifying nothing.

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 Deus ex machina to give the villain the upper hand doesn't really help matters either. 

 

Well, and then you get stuff like Squirrel Girl where she spends 75% of the comic hanging out with her grrls and talking, then a few pages of her casually trashing some villain that is ridiculously powerful to show how great she is as the Mary Sue.  Marvel has tried to keep things fresh and interesting by hiring webcomic writers, but they don't quite grasp the format, the story types, or the concepts of superheroes and it shows.  And the editorial staff seems to have zero interest in helping them learn.

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29 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Well, and then you get stuff like Squirrel Girl where she spends 75% of the comic hanging out with her grrls and talking, then a few pages of her casually trashing some villain that is ridiculously powerful to show how great she is as the Mary Sue.  Marvel has tried to keep things fresh and interesting by hiring webcomic writers, but they don't quite grasp the format, the story types, or the concepts of superheroes and it shows.  And the editorial staff seems to have zero interest in helping them learn.

At least Squirrel Girl isn't meant to be taken seriously, that's just a running gag that rarely has any actually effect on the world though admittedly if C.R.A.D.L.E. and everybody who supported it was whupped off screen by Squirrel Girl I'd likely jump for joy.  The grimdark stories like Civil War and Outlawed are FAR worse they suck all fun and joy out of this hobby, turning formally heroic characters into hypocritical villains (Civil War and Tony Stark come immediately to mind) or even worse, just plain hypocrites (the X-Men are hanging out on Krakoa being all buddy buddy with genocidal monsters like Apocalypse and Mr. Sinister and we're supposed to still consider them heroes? Are you kidding me with this?).  There's nothing upbeat or fun, just a never ending string of dismal depressing BS as the feces piles higher and higher.  Don't even get me started on how the characters of every member of the Champions were assassinated (aside from Victor Alvarez apparently, I'm told he was always a twat) just to cause this Abomination of a storyline to happen and now, apparently, Power Pack has been brought back and get even take down a c-list paramecium like The Wizard? 

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21 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

Kevin Feige, as a fan himself, also understands and respects why these characters have endured for so long, what it is about them that speaks to us. You can feel the love for them in every Marvel movie.

 

Too bad there isn't a Feige for the DC movies. 

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Well, Johns has written some of DC’s biggest story arcs in the past 20 years, Stargirl is based on his late sister, and he was CCO for most of the 2010s. Also, the Lantern Corps Emotional Spectrum, is his idea. 

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17 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Well, and then you get stuff like Squirrel Girl where she spends 75% of the comic hanging out with her grrls and talking, then a few pages of her casually trashing some villain that is ridiculously powerful to show how great she is as the Mary Sue.  Marvel has tried to keep things fresh and interesting by hiring webcomic writers, but they don't quite grasp the format, the story types, or the concepts of superheroes and it shows.  And the editorial staff seems to have zero interest in helping them learn.

 

Nonetheless, I love Squirrel Girl.

 

Where else are you going to get a cover declaring "ONLY OUR SECOND #1 SO FAR THIS YEAR"?

 

 

squirrelgirl.jpg

 

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The last comic series I truly enjoyed was the Busiek/Perez run on Avengers in the late 90s.  I barely stayed with a couple comics here and there after that, although the 2nd JLA incarnation with Brad Meltzer and the brilliant Dwayne McDuffie (RIP) writing alongside Ed Benes art was decent.  After that and Civil War, I've left behind all current comics.  I still buy Graphic Novels for story arcs of comics in the 70's through 90's though.

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4 hours ago, Starlord said:

The last comic series I truly enjoyed was the Busiek/Perez run on Avengers in the late 90s.  I barely stayed with a couple comics here and there after that, although the 2nd JLA incarnation with Brad Meltzer and the brilliant Dwayne McDuffie (RIP) writing alongside Ed Benes art was decent.  After that and Civil War, I've left behind all current comics.  I still buy Graphic Novels for story arcs of comics in the 70's through 90's though.

 

The Busiek run was pretty damn good. He understood the characters.

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DC does not have a Feige equivalent. Geoff Johns is a semi-talented reprobate who managed to weasel his way into a Hollywood career only because he managed to pinch out a couple of decent comic book stories. All the other pretenders to the throne are directors who have neither the business/production savvy nor the creative vision necessary to achieve what Feige has achieved. In addition, WB/AT&T has never entrusted any single person with the creative freedom and financial resources necessary to do what Feige has been doing for the last dozen years.

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13 minutes ago, csyphrett said:

I think Z is right. Look at the Suicide Squad movie. That was edited four times before it was sent to the theater.

CES 

 

I know they weren't Marvel properties at the time but look at how many times New Mutants and Dark Phoenix went back for re-shoots and editing...and they still ended up as crappy movies.

 

Suicide Squad was terrible but at least slightly entertaining.

 

I can't say that Dark Phoenix was even slightly entertaining. It was so forgettable that I got through most of the first hour of watching it again before I realized that I'd seen it before.

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12 minutes ago, archer said:

Suicide Squad was terrible but at least slightly entertaining.

 

I can't say that Dark Phoenix was even slightly entertaining. 

 

Reverse those for me.  I was surprised that Dark Phoenix wasn't too bad...better than Last Stand and the first two Wolverine movies.  Suicide Squad was poorly edited dreck.  Amanda Waller and some of the minor squad members were decently treated but Will Smith was being Will Smith (again) and that was...not...Harley Quinn.  And again...wow...that was some poor editing.

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Just now, Starlord said:

 

Reverse those for me.  I was surprised that Dark Phoenix wasn't too bad...better than Last Stand and the first two Wolverine movies.  Suicide Squad was poorly edited dreck.  Amanda Waller and some of the minor squad members were decently treated but Will Smith was being Will Smith (again) and that was...not...Harley Quinn.  And again...wow...that was some poor editing.

 

Ah, so you were the person who didn't think Dark Phoenix was too bad.

 

:D 

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