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Marvel Cinematic Universe, Phase Three and BEYOOOOONND


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13 minutes ago, Old Man said:

Batman: Into the Bat-Verse


Pretty much!

Just accept that it was going to be messy and the way the characters acted would change when the writers did and not every writer had read the 1970s runs that clearly demonstrated XXX or YYY.  Just roll with it.

Keep having crossovers, keep having summer events, quietly pretend that period when Wonder Woman didn't have powers ever happened, stop hitting the reset button over and over, it never helps!

The DC movies are basically Hypertime in action.  The Ben Afflek Batman fought the Joker from Suicide Squad, who apparently killed Robin (but probably not his parents like the Nickelson Joker did), and from comments made this Batman fought Penguin and some of the other classic Bat-Villians, but none of that matters because right now this Batman is putting together the Justice League (which includes classic members WonderWoman, The Flash, Aquaman, and eventually Superman, but not Green Lantern because his movie was bad, but Cyborg is a Leaguer in this universe and not a Teen Titan)

We can imply a lot about these characters, but we didn't need to see everything and *none* of them are in continuity with every version of them ever put out.  Heck, the Justice League Flash manages to be totally different than WB Flash even though both were happening at the same time in real life.


The MCU has thus far done really well with it's internal consistency as long as you don't think too hard about it, but it's only a matter of time before continuity lockout starts to choke things.

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6 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Most super criminals at the low end are driven by greed, they rob and do stuff to get money.  Doc Ock is not trying to rule New York City, or even a few blocks of it.  The Riddler doesn't want a kingdom.  Which they obviously, in a sane and normal world, would get for their fantastic inventions but hey, its comic books and this is how things work.  Or, at least used to in comics.  Not sure all those assumptions even apply any more.

 

Low-end supervillains are mostly thugs, just performing a pumped-up version of what they'd be doing if they didn't have powers, because they lack the imagination for anything more.

 

Doc Ock has tried to take over organized crime in NYC a few times, although revenge on Spider-Man seems to be a greater driving force. But Ock and the Riddler are psychopaths, pushing their motivations to more idiosyncratic extremes. Also, don't forget the, "prove they're superior" part. That's a big part of why Riddler plays his games -- he has to outwit Batman to demonstrate he's smarter. We see this among real psychopaths, like serial killers.

 

In the case of the Wizard, IMO a big part of his fixation on Reed Richards is jealousy of his scientific genius. Wizard wants to clearly beat Mr. Fantastic on the intellectual front. Now, I don't know what's been done with the character in recent years, but in his classic supevillain incarnation the Wizard wasn't a one-trick pony. His technological "wonder gloves" had an array of offensive and defensive systems built in, and the Wizard created a variety of other devices. (BTW the official Champions Universe has a supervillain called Gauntlet, in CV3, very similar to that version of the Wizard. His artwork even looks rather like him.) ;)

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9 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

Low-end supervillains are mostly thugs, just performing a pumped-up version of what they'd be doing if they didn't have powers, because they lack the imagination for anything more.

 

Doc Ock has tried to take over organized crime in NYC a few times, although revenge on Spider-Man seems to be a greater driving force. But Ock and the Riddler are psychopaths, pushing their motivations to more idiosyncratic extremes. Also, don't forget the, "prove they're superior" part. That's a big part of why Riddler plays his games -- he has to outwit Batman to demonstrate he's smarter. We see this among real psychopaths, like serial killers.

 

In the case of the Wizard, IMO a big part of his fixation on Reed Richards is jealousy of his scientific genius. Wizard wants to clearly beat Mr. Fantastic on the intellectual front. Now, I don't know what's been done with the character in recent years, but in his classic supevillain incarnation the Wizard wasn't a one-trick pony. His technological "wonder gloves" had an array of offensive and defensive systems built in, and the Wizard created a variety of other devices. (BTW the official Champions Universe has a supervillain called Gauntlet, in CV3, very similar to that version of the Wizard. His artwork even looks rather like him.) ;)

I might be in a somewhat anti-Wizard place at the moment, admittedly.  Blame Outlawed.  That being said, I do think Fixer and Tinkerer are his superior when it comes to technology.  Tinkerer could do all the stuff Wizard does, but he's a sensible sort who found himself a comfortable niche that, logically, is making him lots of money.

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5 hours ago, death tribble said:

It sounds like that some supervillains should get a consultant and then they could market and get money from their inventions.

But then I am reminded what Alfred said about the Joker in The Dark Knight

some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn

Yup.

In the end some are just plain evil.

In the real world and fiction.

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36 minutes ago, Twilight said:

That being said, I do think Fixer and Tinkerer are his superior when it comes to technology.

 

Marvel's website has them both rated as a 5 for intellect. I think their scale goes to 7 for those things. So, roughly equal.

 

The Wizard's supposed to be B-tier super genius, I think. Not a Richards or Doom level, but capable of kit bashing super science solutions as needed. I read through his history, and he's invented quite a few plot device type gadgets that are on par with any other comic super scientist.

 

As the leader of the Frightful Four, he's gained the upper hand over the Fantastic Four multiple times over the years, to the point of having cliffhanger issues with the FF in his power. Usually, their escapes seem to have been more by happenstance than through their own effort it seems. So, he's been portrayed as a very credible threat, and seems to have a not-quite-Richards level of intellect backed by a good sense of leadership and tactics.

 

On the flip side, he's a nut job and his costume has usually looked somewhat to very ridiculous. I haven't read comics much in the last decade or more, but I'm guessing someone went with "looks like a clown, so let's write him like one" and turned him into a joke character or an also ran.

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5 hours ago, Twilight said:

He's a one trick pony, the flying discs are all he's got. 

The Wizard does not have hypnotic powers and he's not gonna magically develop them just so you can win this argument.  

 

Maybe you should become familiar with the source material before you attempt to have discussions with people.

 

https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Bentley_Wittman_(Earth-616)#Powers_and_Abilities

https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Wizard's_ID_Machine#cite_note-1

 

 

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18 hours ago, Pattern Ghost said:

 

Marvel's website has them both rated as a 5 for intellect. I think their scale goes to 7 for those things. So, roughly equal.

 

The Wizard's supposed to be B-tier super genius, I think. Not a Richards or Doom level, but capable of kit bashing super science solutions as needed. I read through his history, and he's invented quite a few plot device type gadgets that are on par with any other comic super scientist.

 

As the leader of the Frightful Four, he's gained the upper hand over the Fantastic Four multiple times over the years, to the point of having cliffhanger issues with the FF in his power. Usually, their escapes seem to have been more by happenstance than through their own effort it seems. So, he's been portrayed as a very credible threat, and seems to have a not-quite-Richards level of intellect backed by a good sense of leadership and tactics.

 

On the flip side, he's a nut job and his costume has usually looked somewhat to very ridiculous. I haven't read comics much in the last decade or more, but I'm guessing someone went with "looks like a clown, so let's write him like one" and turned him into a joke character or an also ran.

Reminds me of Dr. Light from the old Titans runs, where he became a joke. They retconned it that someone (one of the Titan's other villians iirc) had done something to him to make him incompetent. Once he broke what was done, he became not only a threat, but worthy of Deathstroke and the villain leaders to offer him a position.

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I sometimes equate it to the unbeatable wrestler, Goldberg, early Undertaker, etc. (I sometimes think of Cage in AEW whenever he first arrives on scene). Once the lose, they aren't unbeatable. Even if was an extraordinary event or person, from that point forward, you can't bill him as invincible. In some ways, Tyson was like that, once he lost to Douglas, his mystique was gone.

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4 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

A significant challenge of recurring villains is maintaining the perception that they are a credible and dangerous threat, despite the fact that they continuously lose.  The more popular the villain, the more the character appears (sells the books) so the more losses they rack up.

 

Well, they lose overall but you have to look at their goals.

 

The Joker wants to terrify Gotham and kill people. He generally succeeds in doing that even though he's later caught.

 

Many times the villain steals loot and is later apprehended but all the loot isn't recovered (or at least the parts of the loot which are critical to future plans aren't recovered.

 

Villains like Klaw have committed crimes in an attempt to get permanent power-ups. And gets that permanent boost despite getting caught and (temporarily) imprisoned.

 

Sabretooth wants to get into a good scrap with Wolverine and mess him up badly. That generally happens when they meet though the fight doesn't do any permanent harm to either because both regenerate.

 

The Hand sends wave after wave of ninjas after Wolverine to keep him distracted while other agents are elsewhere completing their own crimes. Yeah, Wolverine ends up hip deep in a pile of dead ninjas but the Hand often completes their assassination or theft while Wolverine was kept busy. 

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5 hours ago, archer said:

Well, they lose overall but you have to look at their goals.

 

That's kind of the Wizard's problem in the nutshell: His goal is to kill the FF. So, every time he gets the upper hand and has them at his mercy at the end of an issue, they somehow get out of it in the next. Note that that isn't always through their own effort or wiles, so he has some "TKOs" on them in a sense.

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16 hours ago, Pattern Ghost said:

 

That's kind of the Wizard's problem in the nutshell: His goal is to kill the FF. So, every time he gets the upper hand and has them at his mercy at the end of an issue, they somehow get out of it in the next. Note that that isn't always through their own effort or wiles, so he has some "TKOs" on them in a sense.

 

I remember reading an interview with several of the Star Trek: Voyager writing staff many years ago.  The said it was a kind of terrible realization that they had about 1/2 the way into season one that they although their actual directive was to have a Star Trek show with new aliens (get away from the Klingons & Romulans) and less calling Starfleet to decide how to handle something, what they had *actually* done was give their heroes an overriding mission (get home) that motivated almost everyone.  Worse, the realized the audience was actually pretty invested in this meta goal for the characters.  The creators had failed to consider than when Picard & the Enterprise flew off at the end of an episode having resolved the situation of the week, they had resolved the goal of the episode. The Audience was satisfied.  Previous series had never had a meta-goal the way Voyager did & they were now going to be committed to dealing with it every episode.

As they were writing their early episodes it finally sank in that every time the crew ended an episode not being back in the Federation, they had failed to succeed in their meta goal.  That was maybe OK for general "we are traveling" episodes because they were on their way to their goal, but every time there was a magical way home & it didn't work their characters increasingly looked like Charlie Brown failing to kick the football.  Every time they stopped to check out a planet, people where going to ask "Why do they care?  Why aren't they just going home?".  It ended up being an issue the never really solved as the show went on.

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13 minutes ago, Jhamin said:

 

I remember reading an interview with several of the Star Trek: Voyager writing staff many years ago.  The said it was a kind of terrible realization that they had about 1/2 the way into season one that they although their actual directive was to have a Star Trek show with new aliens (get away from the Klingons & Romulans) and less calling Starfleet to decide how to handle something, what they had *actually* done was give their heroes an overriding mission (get home) that motivated almost everyone.  Worse, the realized the audience was actually pretty invested in this meta goal for the characters.  The creators had failed to consider than when Picard & the Enterprise flew off at the end of an episode having resolved the situation of the week, they had resolved the goal of the episode. The Audience was satisfied.  Previous series had never had a meta-goal the way Voyager did & they were now going to be committed to dealing with it every episode.

 

It greatly amuses me that the entire premise behind Voyager was accidental.

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'Doctor Strange 2': Benedict Cumberbatch Says Director Sam Raimi Is an "Incredible Force"

"It's been a very, very collaborative process, this one."


“It's a catch-22 us entertainment journalists find ourselves in. When you interview an MCU star, you wanna ask them about their next MCU film. But these stars are sworn to such levels of secrecy, they simply can't reveal anything (unless their name is Tom Holland, of course). What is one to do?”


https://collider.com/doctor-strange-2-benedict-cumberbatch-interview-sam-raimi/

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2 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Raimi is a good choice for director, he made terrific spider-man films until the studio messed with his third film too much

And I liked his Sandman in the third one. Just everything to do with Venom was a problem. He seemed to really understand Peter/Spidey AND the villains (Doc Ock (who was fabulous), Sandman (who probably would have been very good if he had been given his own film) and I thought his Goblin was pretty good).

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On 3/10/2021 at 4:39 PM, Bazza said:
 


“It's a catch-22 us entertainment journalists find ourselves in. When you interview an MCU star, you wanna ask them about their next MCU film. But these stars are sworn to such levels of secrecy, they simply can't reveal anything (unless their name is Tom Holland, of course). What is one to do?”

 

 

You put Tom Holland into more movies, of course.

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