Marvel Cinematic Universe, Phase Three and BEYOOOOONND

[Spence]

On 7/25/2021 at 10:48 PM, Grailknight said:

 

The large amount of content out there confuses the issue. There are so many bad to mediocre shows out that they seem to drown out the good to excellent ones. But the percentages of awful, bad, mediocre, good and excellent stuff is pretty much the same with possibly a shift towards the middle overall.

 

Remember, we're judging new content against not just other new content but also against everything that's come before and some older stuff gets bonus points because it was the original . So the classic westerns, detective stories and war movies hold up pretty well while the SFX heavy genres of sci-fi and fantasy lean heavily to more modern stuff. 

 

Movies and TV haven't gotten worse, our standards have gotten higher.

 

I understand a lot of what you are saying. 

 

There used to be at least one or two series on TV that were interesting. 

I haven't seen anything even remotely decent in several years and most of that has been one off's on a streaming service.

Occasionally there will be a season one show that can be pretty good, but then at season two or after the season one mid-season break the makers decide that they have hooked you and either fall back on the same mind-numbingly predictable and BORING "evil corporation dark conspiracy the earth is boiling" plot or just abandon story all together so they can launch their "x group is evil" social agenda. 

 

I have just lost all patience and refuse to give utter garbage a pass because they insert a few key phrases and words.

A good story can also promote a concept or stance and because it is a good story be great entertainment because it has an actual good storyline.

And agenda with a thin veneer sprayed over the top is still garbage because there is no storyline outlining an actual good story.  

 

I've worked a pig farm before. 

And it isn't that "Movies and TV haven't gotten worse, our standards have gotten higher." 

It is "we have been covered in pig shit for so long we no longer smell the stench."

[Bazza]

*Patience 

[csyphrett]

16 hours ago, Greywind said:

 

Reports are that BW lost a ton of money after the opening weekend. Disney came out of this looking incredibly greedy and dumb for not realizing people would treat this like Wrestlemania PPV.

CES

[slikmar]

I realize this is an old discussion, but having been seeing previews, wanted to make a comment. Back in the day, we compared Carol Danvers to Maverick from Top Gun and the argument against was that He went through a heroes journey. I then said that just because you come back and do what you have done the whole movie to save someone doesn't stop you being the a$$ you were the whole movie. Well, judging by the new preview of the new top gun movie, he is still the same arrogant jerk he always was, including, apparently giving attittude to the commanding officer of the flight school. Just saying.

[csyphrett]

2 hours ago, slikmar said:

I realize this is an old discussion, but having been seeing previews, wanted to make a comment. Back in the day, we compared Carol Danvers to Maverick from Top Gun and the argument against was that He went through a heroes journey. I then said that just because you come back and do what you have done the whole movie to save someone doesn't stop you being the a$$ you were the whole movie. Well, judging by the new preview of the new top gun movie, he is still the same arrogant jerk he always was, including, apparently giving attittude to the commanding officer of the flight school. Just saying.

Didn't Danvers go through a hero's journey. I didn't watch Captain Marvel so I don't know

CES

[pinecone]

2 minutes ago, csyphrett said:

Didn't Danvers go through a hero's journey. I didn't watch Captain Marvel so I don't know

CES

Not really she remembered her rage against being oppressed, then powered up and saved the day.

[csyphrett]

8 minutes ago, pinecone said:

Not really she remembered her rage against being oppressed, then powered up and saved the day.

That's cool I guess. Don't take this the wrong way but I never cared for her so it didn't matter to me if she got a movie or not. I was more onboard with the GOTG even if they were depowered and personality swapped. I would have loved to have seen a real Nova with real powers on Xandar but I guess that wasn't in the cards

CES

[pinecone]

31 minutes ago, csyphrett said:

That's cool I guess. Don't take this the wrong way but I never cared for her so it didn't matter to me if she got a movie or not. I was more onboard with the GOTG even if they were depowered and personality swapped. I would have loved to have seen a real Nova with real powers on Xandar but I guess that wasn't in the cards

CES

Yeah, it was not a Bad movie...but it suffered from Hollywooditus, and I think it harmed the story. It could have been an awesome smash bang adventure, with a new cosmic hero...but it was not.

[Spence]

22 hours ago, Bazza said:

*Patience 

 

Thank you.  Typing in a hurry and relying on spell check is not always your friend 

[Spence]

6 hours ago, csyphrett said:

Didn't Danvers go through a hero's journey. I didn't watch Captain Marvel so I don't know

CES

 

6 hours ago, pinecone said:

Not really she remembered her rage against being oppressed, then powered up and saved the day.

 

As pinecone said, not really.

 

Once she "remembered" or "stopped being deceived" she went from snarky a$$ to arrogant snarky a$$.  Zero heroes journey "personal trial" that teaches the Hero humility.  

In Top Gun the character was a arrogant snarky a$$ right up until he killed his friend and realized he was a arrogant snarky a$$. 

 

Since Hollywood and many people that watch movies have no clue about the difference between "cold confident professionalism" and and "perceived  arrogance" they tend to lump them together. I haven't really payed attention and don't recall the new movies trailer (though I thought I had seen it) but my expectations are not high that it will actually be a sequel.  I do not believe that there is anyone left in Hollywood that has enough actual intelligence to actually portray a story/movie involving anything military without filming it through their, not flawed or crack lens, but utterly shattered lens and ludicrous basic concepts about the military.

 

I think the new Top Gun will most likely be a sh*t show, but if the cast and crew can resist giving any interviews where they castigate and vilify most of the potential audience just before release, it should sell.  Everyone seems to be determined to ignore reality, but single males and white people are a very large segment of the population in the US.  It doesn't matter if you like it or if it offends some personal opinion, it just is.  Both Captain Marvel and Black Widow cast/crew released interviews and posted on social media that vilified both demographics.  Tom Cruise is as arrogant in real life as he played in the movie.  But they really shine up that turd till it gleams for prerelease promotions of one of his movies.  Brie Larson may have played arrogant in the movie, but then she carried it into real life, bashed and hammered the major segment of possible customers and then kept doubling down.  For what possible reason will anyone pay money for a product made by someone that actively hate you and makes sure you know they do?  Black Widow had the misfortune to follow behind the near fresh memory of Brie Larson/Captain Marvel and when Scarlett Johansson decided to release a statement, that while milder in tone, basically gave the middle finger to the same two segments of the population.  And so they did not go.  

 

Of course in Hollywood they blame it an the evil white people or evil male people.  Hollywood and a lot of various "groups" have decided discriminatory behavior, vilification and hate is OK and acceptable as long as it is directed toward "males" and/or "whites".   And then they are confused when the target groups go "OK, but I will not buy your product". 

 

I remember the old adage.  "If you can't say something nice, say nothing at all".   For a business that relies on sales it rings even more true than the saying about the customer being right.

 

I was waiting to see Black Widow right up until she did an  interview and then followed up on social media telling me that she did not want my business.  So I was courteous and gave her what she asked for.

 

They can make any show that they want to, more power to them.   

But I am fully in control of my wallet and do not have to see it.

 

 

   

[dmjalund]

i see the resistance to a Captain Marvel story teaching humility is "teaching humility to women" seems to be a tool of the Patriarchy.

[Spence]

15 minutes ago, dmjalund said:

i see the resistance to a Captain Marvel story teaching humility is "teaching humility to women" seems to be a tool of the Patriarchy.

 

Not trying to be dense, but the sentence doesn't make sense. 

What is "i see the resistance to a Captain Marvel story teaching humility" referring to? 

[Lord Liaden]

The phrasing is somewhat awkward, but I believe the point dmjalund is trying to make, is that there was concern among the people producing Captain Marvel  that if the story emphasized Carol Danvers being humbled, that would be interpreted by many in the audience as the patriarchal system once again "putting a woman in her place."

[Bazza]

CM is a mythological movie but it is not a hero’s journey mythological movie. It is more a ‘amnesic goddess that falls to earth and later remembers she is in fact a goddess’ movie. Goddess is symbolic of the divine feminine archetype/symbol. That this goddess is an earth woman makes it even more impactful, as symbolically, it is that the divine feminine that has been reawakened on Earth.

[Greywind]

Rogue will humble her down just fine.

[Pattern Ghost]

3 hours ago, Spence said:

 

I was waiting to see Black Widow right up until she did an  interview and then followed up on social media telling me that she did not want my business.

 

You've got me curious. Do you have a link to this interview?

 

 

----------------------------/Line to counter stupid smashing posts together function/-----------------------------------------

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Liaden said:

The phrasing is somewhat awkward, but I believe the point dmjalund is trying to make, is that there was concern among the people producing Captain Marvel  that if the story emphasized Carol Danvers being humbled, that would be interpreted by many in the audience as the patriarchal system once again "putting a woman in her place."

 

Simple solution: Don't make her arrogant to start with. Give her another issue to work through, like trust.

[Ninja-Bear]

I never saw any of the Black Widow interviews. If BW was white male bashing, it wasn’t over the top like CM.

[Grailknight]

Black Widow is a super-spy thriller with the secondary theme of "What is family?".

 

However the main villain is the most misogynistic despicable bastard we've seen in any MCU film to date. Only the Red Skull comes close to him on my evil podium.

[csyphrett]

I have to agree with Grailknight. Dreykov was pretty bad. And he was using the Bourne/Treadstone technique better than the movies that posited it. It was obvious why he benched the Guardian when you see his network at the end of the movie. His plans need covert operators moving in stealth and completing missions without being seen like Agent 47.   A loud red bull is not what he wants to get the job done.

CES

[Dr.Device]

14 hours ago, Spence said:

Both Captain Marvel and Black Widow cast/crew released interviews and posted on social media that vilified both demographics.  Tom Cruise is as arrogant in real life as he played in the movie.  But they really shine up that turd till it gleams for prerelease promotions of one of his movies.  Brie Larson may have played arrogant in the movie, but then she carried it into real life, bashed and hammered the major segment of possible customers and then kept doubling down.  For what possible reason will anyone pay money for a product made by someone that actively hate you and makes sure you know they do?  Black Widow had the misfortune to follow behind the near fresh memory of Brie Larson/Captain Marvel and when Scarlett Johansson decided to release a statement, that while milder in tone, basically gave the middle finger to the same two segments of the population.  And so they did not go.  

 

I'd like to see some links to these interviews and statements by Brie Larson and Scarlett Johansson.

 

The idea that Marvel is somehow portraying white men as inherently evil is laughable on its face. Captain America? Iron Man? The Hulk? Hawkeye? Dr. Strange? Thor? Ant Man? Star Lord? Spider-man? Yeah, no.

 

Do they have evil white men in their shows and movies? Sure. But nowhere is it ever implied that being white and male makes them evil or inferior in any way. 

 

And as for people not going to see Captain Marvel, it's the second highest grossing of the non-team-up MCU films, so I don't think people stayed away in droves. And it really doesn't make sense to draw any conclusions about Black Widow, with the year+ pandemic delay, the new and untested release strategy, and the lack of a China release (as of yet).

 

 

[Greywind]

https://www.cbr.com/captain-marvel-brie-larson-not-made-for-white-men/

 

[death tribble]

I have just seen Captain Marvell and I liked it. The soundtrack has Only Happy When it Rains so that puts me in a good mood. I am very familiar with the original Captain Marvel where he was first sent to Earth and Yon Rogg was out to get him and knock off his girlfriend Medic Una. Nice to see Lee Pace again and the Pursuer.

So overall I liked it.

[zslane]

52 minutes ago, Dr.Device said:

I'd like to see some links to these interviews and statements by Brie Larson

 

As Greywind's link explains, Brie Larson never said anything about not wanting a "particular demographic" to go see Captain Marvel, or anything to that effect. But this is the Internet where misinformation becomes mythologized and believed without much question.

[Scott Ruggels]

15 hours ago, dmjalund said:

i see the resistance to a Captain Marvel story teaching humility is "teaching humility to women" seems to be a tool of the Patriarchy.

Bingo!  Which is also why current Hollywood emasculated male heroes, and does not create positive male role models for male children in entertainment. It’s an agenda of revenge against the Patriarchy. In current year, males have to be submissive, idiots, or villains, not just white males either, black males have to be nerdy or gay to be on the good side. This is fairly brevet, but very common on TV.  I just want Terry Crewes back as a badass hero. 

[Dr.Device]

 

5 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

Bingo!  Which is also why current Hollywood emasculated male heroes, and does not create positive male role models for male children in entertainment. It’s an agenda of revenge against the Patriarchy. In current year, males have to be submissive, idiots, or villains, not just white males either, black males have to be nerdy or gay to be on the good side. This is fairly brevet, but very common on TV.  I just want Terry Crewes back as a badass hero. 

 

This is, to put it politely, somewhat overwrought, and entirely inaccurate.

 

Is the Falcon (now Captain America) nerdy or gay, submissive, or an idiot? No.

 

Sure, the Winter Soldier is a reformed villain, but, then again, so was the Black Widow.

 

Black Panther? None of those things. And if the actor hadn't died, he'd be back for another movie soon.

 

The Vision died again recently, but we may well see him again.

 

Spider-man is nerdy, I'll give you that but what's wrong with that?

Dr. Strange doesn't fit this categories either, although he is a bit of a pompous ass.

 

I won't include Hawkeye, since he's a serial killer (but other than that he's an okay guy), or Starlord, because I'd say he does tend to fall in the idiot bucket (and is also an arrogant, insecure jerk).

 

I've seen Ant-Man criticized because Wasp is a better fighter than him, but there's a lot more to being a positive role model than being able to kick ass (which he still often manages).

 

There are also a ton of supporting characters who are good role models.

 

And, guess what, a gay character can be just as much of a positive male role model as a straight character, not that we see many of them in the MCU or other action movies (The Old Guard is a nice exception there). 

 

And Terry Crews is, this very year, playing a badass character on Brooklyn 99.  A smart, accomplished bad ass. He just happens to also be a dad, and a caring person. It's a sitcom, so of course they give him an amusing tic (he tends to refer to himself in third person), but he looks like a pretty positive role model to me.