Marvel Cinematic Universe, Phase Three and BEYOOOOONND

[Pattern Ghost]

6 hours ago, zslane said:

As Greywind's link explains, Brie Larson never said anything about not wanting a "particular demographic" to go see Captain Marvel, or anything to that effect. But this is the Internet where misinformation becomes mythologized and believed without much question.

 

And as annoying as I find her behavior in most interviews, I agree wholeheartedly with her about A Wrinkle in Time. I found it just OK, but I know I wasn't the target demographic there, and don't have a problem with it.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah, you can have a super powerful, capable character that dominates their opposition (a lot of past heroes have been that way, such as nearly everyone Schwarzenegger played in movies), it can work.  But you have to make the character charming, likable, and enduring or at least heroic.  Terminator in T2, becomes sacrificing and even likable for example.  Superman is extremely likeable because he's so dedicated to doing right and is such a boy scout to show another way of doing it.

 

With Dr Strange, for example, you have a character who was a pompous ass, but was so humbled by his experiences that he's just really capable but interesting and likable.  Plus he demonstrated inescapably that hes willing to sacrifice himself to save everyone else, without hesitation and even a smile on his face.  That makes him into a character the audience can cheer with and for.

 

Ripley in the Alien series is compassionate, protective, and determined to save people no matter what it costs her.  That makes her a character that's memorable and beloved.

 

That's what the makers of Captain Marvel missed completely. She has one moment where she's slightly human (with her friend Ms Rambeau who again should have been Captain Marvel) but the rest of the movie and all the Avengers she's stoneface and has no personality.  Her utter lack of any real challenge through the entire film and the inexplicably bizarre choice to turn Skrulls into good guys (??) instead of both the Kree and the Skrull being basically bad guys that humanity is trapped between just added up to a pretty poor film overall.

 

Just a few minor changes to the movie and story would have made a huge difference in the quality of the film, but Marvel at that point had stopped hiring the best writers and directors and instead started checking off boxes and the results have shown.

[Dr.Device]

I think that's a completely valid viewpoint. I disagree with it, but I can definitely see where you're coming from. Larson gave a very understated performance in many ways. There were lots of barely there smiles, and bits of understated humor. I think this was most likely a directorial choice (which worked fine for me), because I've seen her play much more emotionally broad characters. I find the accusations of arrogance against the character unfair, but, once again, that's a question of perception.

 

Overall, it's a matter of the character as written/Larson's performance working for some people and not others. And that's fine.

 

I think part of why it worked for me is that I identified with the character a lot. Most of my life I didn't display much emotion. People tended to find me arrogant, when really, I just didn't connect well. And until recently, for as long as I remember people had told me I was something I wasn't, and I had believed them. So it makes sense that I would connect more.

 

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah she's been significantly more interesting and likable in other roles, I think she was told to play all that down and be all tough and steely like her grim and unlikable current comic book incarnation.

[Scott Ruggels]

2 hours ago, Dr.Device said:

 

 

This is, to put it politely, somewhat overwrought, and entirely inaccurate.

 

Is the Falcon (now Captain America) nerdy or gay, submissive, or an idiot? No.

 

Sure, the Winter Soldier is a reformed villain, but, then again, so was the Black Widow.

 

Black Panther? None of those things. And if the actor hadn't died, he'd be back for another movie soon.

 

The Vision died again recently, but we may well see him again.

 

Spider-man is nerdy, I'll give you that but what's wrong with that?

Dr. Strange doesn't fit this categories either, although he is a bit of a pompous ass.

 

I won't include Hawkeye, since he's a serial killer (but other than that he's an okay guy), or Starlord, because I'd say he does tend to fall in the idiot bucket (and is also an arrogant, insecure jerk).

 

I've seen Ant-Man criticized because Wasp is a better fighter than him, but there's a lot more to being a positive role model than being able to kick ass (which he still often manages).

 

There are also a ton of supporting characters who are good role models.

 

And, guess what, a gay character can be just as much of a positive male role model as a straight character, not that we see many of them in the MCU or other action movies (The Old Guard is a nice exception there). 

 

And Terry Crews is, this very year, playing a badass character on Brooklyn 99.  A smart, accomplished bad ass. He just happens to also be a dad, and a caring person. It's a sitcom, so of course they give him an amusing tic (he tends to refer to himself in third person), but he looks like a pretty positive role model to me.

 

 

 

 

From the spies in Hollywood, Thor has probably one more movie until his contract is over. What happens after that is up in the air. So they are adopting current year comics to now fill in. Thor will be replaced by female Thor, as what happened in a recent run. Hawkeye will be killed by the new Black Widow, and replaced by Kate Bishop. The late Tony Stark will be replaced by Reeree Williams as Ironheart. T’challa will be replaced by Shiri, though that is vague. Cap is already replaced by Falcon, who delivered a woke speech in defense of an economic terrorist, and there are bets that Dr. Strange won’t survive The Multiverse of Madness at the hands of The Scarlet Witch.  It looks like Kevon Feige might be a subtler and more successful Kathleen Kennedy. 
 

Frankly, I am not a fan of Goddess stories, as it results in Mary Sues, or Femsle empowerment by making the males ineffectual, through weakness, simping, stupidity, or making them evil assholes. I want male heroes to be like able, good in a fight, competent and self reliant. I feel like I a clinging to a life raft with Superman & Lois, where we have a very likable Superman, and a competent Lois. They do not over shadow each other but work as a team. The beginning of Black Widow showed Red Guardian to be smart, effective, and part of a competent team. After the prison break he was a buffoon, a punching bag for Taskmaster . The before and after didn’t seem like the same character. 
 

I am just tired of seeing make myths invalidated by the current media. 

[Scott Ruggels]

3 hours ago, Dr.Device said:

 

And Terry Crews is, this very year, playing a badass character on Brooklyn 99.  A smart, accomplished bad ass. He just happens to also be a dad, and a caring person. It's a sitcom, so of course they give him an amusing tic (he tends to refer to himself in third person), but he looks like a pretty positive role model to me.

 

 

 

 

I’m glad he’s getting work, but I don’t have cable or broadcast TV, relying on the internet and Netflix (for now) and Amazon Prime. I just wish he was in movies more I guess. I am really tired of seeing black men as the unthreatening science nerd, or the effeminate best friend. 

[Ninja-Bear]

@Scott Ruggels, I chopped up the Red Guardian as a buffoon in prison because he was in prison for what 10 years? And for no other reason than the villain sent him there presumedly to die.  That would take a toll on you mentally.  

[Christopher R Taylor]

I have known people who were put into prison, and they do not come out as comical retards.

[csyphrett]

He was in for 30 years which depending on when the movie was set was sometime in the nineties, maybe right after he turned over the stolen secrets. Which now that I think about it, how did he know everything? I don't remember the prison having a television.

 

Also Chris, I have worked with guys out of prison and they were either serious guys trying to keep their head down or comical retards. Sometimes you get both in the same guy.

CES    

[Scott Ruggels]

Box office to date:

 

https://ombreviews.com/box-office-tracking/

 

 

[archer]

Can't say I know a lot of guys who were in prison.

 

I did know I guy who was in prison for around 20 years until he was released because the state was finally forced to process the DNA evidence they had on all their cases.

 

He seemed like a fairly normal guy with a sense of humor. He was making a living in construction.

 

I don't doubt he was in a Hispanic prison gang because that kind of thing is fairly unavoidable and he had more tattoos than normal. But you wouldn't have guessed he was in prison unless perhaps you were versed in reading the meaning of tattoos.

[Greywind]

Did he share a cell with Ivan Vanko?

[zslane]

Unlike comic book characters who can remain the same age for decades, actors get older, they want to move on to other things, or they social-media their way out of a job. Clearing the decks of one set of characters to make room for the next generation of characters is an unfortunate necessity of live action cinema. Until we perfect digital actors who look 100% real, with no uncanny valley effect, and can be performance-captured and voiced by numerous actors over time, we won't have superhero characters that continue on for two, three, or more decades. The Iron Mans will have to give way to the Ironhearts, and one Captain America (or Black Panther) will be replaced by another, and then another, etc. All we can hope for is that Kevin Feige does a good job of this. I, for one, have no problem with Kate Bishop taking over for Hawkeye, to take just one example. As long as they do a good job with these new characters, I'm still all in on the MCU.

[Christopher R Taylor]

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Clearing the decks of one set of characters to make room for the next generation of characters is an unfortunate necessity of live action cinema.

Tell that to James Bond.

 

Honestly I don't care if they put Simone Biles into the Iron Man armor or whatever.  Tony is dead, fine.  Either retire Iron Man (the most logical step) or put someone else in the armor (the most lucrative step).

 

As long as they are doing it because they have a great story to tell rather than "we need more [fill in the blank special interest group]"

[zslane]

Or Dr. Who.

 

Yes, thanks to the revolving door of actors who have played Bond (or Dr. Who), you have a highly fractured fanbase. This is the same problem DC has with their characters. They go through Batmen the way the Broccolis go through Bonds, and it creates a complete mess within the fandom. No one version ever acquires enough traction to become truly iconic, except maybe the very first one (e.g., Sean Connery). Marvel largely avoids this problem by only very rarely switching out actors. Moreover, they don't reboot their franchises every few years, they expand upon them instead. Star Wars had become as fractured as DC, but now there is a glimmer of hope now that Favreau and Filoni are taking on a larger role in that franchise. I'd like to believe that Disney has learned their lesson with Star Wars, and that they have formulated a plan to avoid the kind of sh*tshow that live-action DC has been.

[Greywind]

13 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Tell that to James Bond.

 

Honestly I don't care if they put Simone Biles into the Iron Man armor or whatever.  Tony is dead, fine.  Either retire Iron Man (the most logical step) or put someone else in the armor (the most lucrative step).

 

As long as they are doing it because they have a great story to tell rather than "we need more [fill in the blank special interest group]"

 

They have option for Iron Man. Either Harlan from IM3 or an Ironheart. They could even do a Pepper Potts movie with her armor.

[Dr.Device]

16 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

Cap is already replaced by Falcon, who delivered a woke speech in defense of an economic terrorist,

 

That was a pretty standard Captain America speech. Cap has been a social justice warrior since way back.

[mattingly]

[archer]

4 hours ago, zslane said:

Unlike comic book characters who can remain the same age for decades, actors get older, they want to move on to other things, or they social-media their way out of a job. Clearing the decks of one set of characters to make room for the next generation of characters is an unfortunate necessity of live action cinema. Until we perfect digital actors who look 100% real, with no uncanny valley effect, and can be performance-captured and voiced by numerous actors over time, we won't have superhero characters that continue on for two, three, or more decades. The Iron Mans will have to give way to the Ironhearts, and one Captain America (or Black Panther) will be replaced by another, and then another, etc. All we can hope for is that Kevin Feige does a good job of this. I, for one, have no problem with Kate Bishop taking over for Hawkeye, to take just one example. As long as they do a good job with these new characters, I'm still all in on the MCU.

 

They also have the option of bringing a character from somewhere else in the multiverse. Of course it'd have to be used sparingly but the option is still there.

 

Personally, I'd like to see them give that treatment to Hawkeye and bring in a Hawkeye from elsewhere who looks and behaves like the Hawkeye from the comics. He was a fan favorite for a couple of decades and fans screamed whenever he was removed from the Avengers lineup. 

 

And Marvel made a huge deal of it whenever he came back. 

 

He was vocal. He complained, tried to grab leadership, was the best and knew it, never seemed like he acknowledged he was overmatched "just" because he had a bow and arrows, he had an eye for the ladies but wasn't obnoxious about it.

 

There was a scene in Age of Ultron where Hawkeye was trying to buck up Wanda and is telling her something like "I just have a bow and arrows against an army of robots: none of this makes any sense".

 

The comic book Hawkeye would have been telling her that He was the guy with a bow and arrows who was going to take down an army of robots then ask her "Are you with me?"

 

And be projecting the kind of confidence that would make you think that he might actually be right. Or might just be over-confident enough to be off his rocker but either way, you'd want to be with him.

 

Nobody who's a fan of the MCU is clamoring for a Hawkeye movie because the MCU version of Hawkeye sucked on several different levels. 

 

I don't mind if Kate takes over someday. But I don't want her taking over due to "the MCU version of Hawkeye sucked but we paid a big name actor to be in the role so we're going to replace him".

 

Let's get a glorious Hawkeye who is recognizably Hawkeye (complete with a purple Hawkeye costume), celebrate him for a few years, then send him off to a well-deserved semi-retirement with the occasional cameo.

.

.

 

"Why doesn't your quiver run out of arrows?"

"Tony and Hank came up with some gizmo. I can stick a huge number of arrows in there but you only see the few that are on top."

[Christopher R Taylor]

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That was a pretty standard Captain America speech. Cap has been a social justice warrior since way back.

 

It was dumb as the stuff Cap has been saying lately, I agree.

 

"Be better" is the worst mic drop line in the history of television.  Its what someone utterly clueless but glassy-eyed in their zealotry says.

 

Quote

 

Personally, I'd like to see them give that treatment to Hawkeye and bring in a Hawkeye from elsewhere who looks and behaves like the Hawkeye from the comics. He was a fan favorite for a couple of decades and fans screamed whenever he was removed from the Avengers lineup.

 

 

Yeah, but Feige etc are locked into the Ultimate universe, which is latter day Marvel guys who wrecked the company making their version of how they think the characters should have been.

[Grailknight]

5 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Yeah, but Feige etc are locked into the Ultimate universe, which is latter day Marvel guys who wrecked the company making their version of how they think the characters should have been.

 

The MCU is definitely not the Ultimate universe. It's more a soft reboot/modernization of the regular comic universe. There are some Ultimate elements, especially involving Fury, SHIELD and  Hawkeye but not having rights to Spiderman, Fantastic Four and the X-Men caused some major breaks from that alternate Earth. Feige took some of the best elements of both but the MCU versions of our heroes are far closer to their traditional Marvel versions than their Ultimate ones. 

[Bazza]

 

[Greywind]

It's Disney. They'll throw money at it to make it go away.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Her case seems very sound to me, particularly as their defense is "coronavirus, you're being mean!!!"

[Scott Ruggels]

3 hours ago, Greywind said:

It's Disney. They'll throw money at it to make it go away.

 

4 hours ago, Bazza said:

 

 

3 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Her case seems very sound to me, particularly as their defense is "coronavirus, you're being mean!!!"

Except Disney’s statement at the close of business today, castigated Johansson for dismissing the COVID-19 threat, and the necessary precautions, in that we are not out of the woods yet. The statement was uncharacteristically aggressive for Disney, and it looks like they are going to fight. It’s not like Disney has to play nice with the actress, now that her story is finished, and her contract is completed.