Marvel Cinematic Universe, Phase Three and BEYOOOOONND

[Spence]

On 7/27/2021 at 8:16 PM, Lord Liaden said:

The phrasing is somewhat awkward, but I believe the point dmjalund is trying to make, is that there was concern among the people producing Captain Marvel  that if the story emphasized Carol Danvers being humbled, that would be interpreted by many in the audience as the patriarchal system once again "putting a woman in her place."

Thanks,  I wasn't following.  Sometimes I can be a little dense.

[Spence]

On 7/28/2021 at 8:47 AM, Dr.Device said:

The idea that Marvel is somehow portraying white men as inherently evil is laughable on its face. Captain America? Iron Man? The Hulk? Hawkeye? Dr. Strange? Thor? Ant Man? Star Lord? Spider-man? Yeah, no.

I think you missed the conversation.  It is not about the old MCU that were great movies following the comics. 

 

It is about the "now" issues.  Where they publicly and deliberately cut  Dr Strange from shows because he was a white male.

Plus multiple interviews where the female cast members deliberately bashed their male audience. 

 

BW took a nose dive of interest AFTER SJs interview about how she regretted playing a fem fatal as a fem fatal.  A actor not liking her part in her movie tends to make potential audiences not want to see it. 

 

If someone had locked Larson and Johansson in a room with zero media access until a month after release the movies may have been blockbusters.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ternaugh]

1 hour ago, Spence said:

I think you missed the conversation.  It is not about the old MCU that were great movies following the comics. 

 

It is about the "now" issues.  Where they publicly and deliberately cut  Dr Strange from shows because he was a white male.

Plus multiple interviews where the female cast members deliberately bashed their male audience. 

 

BW took a nose dive of interest AFTER SJs interview about how she regretted playing a fem fatal as a fem fatal.  A actor not liking her part in her movie tends to make potential audiences not want to see it. 

 

If someone had locked Larson and Johansson in a room with zero media access until a month after release the movies may have been blockbusters.

 

Once again, this is the lifetime gross for Captain Marvel: $1,128,462,972

 

To put that into context, also released in 2019: Spider-Man: Far from Home: $1,131,927,996

 

Does that mean that Far from Home wasn't a blockbuster?

[Dr.Device]

2 hours ago, Spence said:

I think you missed the conversation.  It is not about the old MCU that were great movies following the comics. 

 

It is about the "now" issues.  Where they publicly and deliberately cut  Dr Strange from shows because he was a white male.

Plus multiple interviews where the female cast members deliberately bashed their male audience. 

 

BW took a nose dive of interest AFTER SJs interview about how she regretted playing a fem fatal as a fem fatal.  A actor not liking her part in her movie tends to make potential audiences not want to see it. 

 

If someone had locked Larson and Johansson in a room with zero media access until a month after release the movies may have been blockbusters.

 

 

There are some uncited assertion in there. Where did female cast members "bash males"? The Brie Larson quote cited in the article listed upthread had nothing to do with the MCU, and was nothing close to male bashing, and it's the only thing presented so far.

 

As Ternaugh pointed out, Captain Marvel was a blockbuster, by any reasonable definition. As to why Black Widow is doing so relatively poorly, that's really complicated. I sincerely doubt it has anything at all to do with anything Johansson has said in interviews. The movie is about a character that is already dead in the continuity of the series. It was released simultaneously to streaming and theaters, and it was released a year late due to the pandemic. All those are almost certainly bigger factors than folks caring about whatever Johansson said.

 

Regarding Dr. Strange being cut from shows, do you have an example beyond WandaVision? Otherwise, that's one show, and I've got to say, making the decision to not have the powerful man come in and save the day at the end of that series was a solid one. Having any character show up and Deus Ex Machina the ending would have been bad, but having a man do it in a show that's otherwise been mostly centering women would have sucked.

 

This whole panic over more diversity in the MCU makes me laugh. There was one female super hero for the entirety of phase one of the MCU, and she's the one who didn't get a solo movie (until just now), while there were four male-led solo movies. In phase two they added two more women. Wanda only became a hero at the very end of the last movie of phase 2, and Gamora was added as the one woman in a crew of five. There were once again four male-led solo movies, and zero female-led. Phase three gave us our first female-led movie, and five male-led movies.

 

As the original lead actors retire, their characters are getting replaced. We got a black Captain America. We're going to get Iron Heart instead of Iron Man. We know we're getting a female Thor in Love and Thunder, and rumors say that Hemsworth's Thor may be going to die, but I haven't heard anything solid on the future of those two characters. A lot of fans want Shuri to be the new Black Panther, but, once again, Marvel seems to be playing their cards close to their chest, so who knows. This year we get Shang Chi, a new male lead, our first Asian lead in the MCU. Someone in one of these threads said that Dr. Strange is going to die in Multiverse of Madness, and that Hawkeye is going to die in his Disney+ series. I've seen nothing to back these up. 

 

But the thing is, if the MCU becomes no longer completely centered around white males for a while, it's not the end of the universe. White males have dominated lead roles in these movies so far (and in all of Hollywood, for that matter) for a long while, and it would take a long time of that no longer being true to reach even close to parity. It would be okay to let some other folks take the spotlight for a while.

 

 

[Greywind]

There's a good possibility Spider-Man will die in his next movie. After all, there's going to be how many in there?

[Scott Ruggels]

Well now there are rumors of another Writer's strike soon, which will slow production again.  But I can see why this time, because in a previous incident, they had to fire their representation, other than the Writer's guild, and that resulted in problems with Television productions, which are growing (i.e. non writers becoming show-runners, and directors starting to push back against the writers, when Television had alwas been a writer's medium. (Films, not so much)  Having an unqualified executive producer run a TV show is a recipe for disaster.

1 hour ago, Greywind said:

There's a good possibility Spider-Man will die in his next movie. After all, there's going to be how many in there?

..and be replaced by Miles Morales. I have no problem with Miles Morales as a character, provided he has a good writer, but, killing off Peter Parker because he4's "Just another white male superhero", will have me boycotting Marvel after that.

[Grailknight]

The Ultimate Spiderman run which centered around Peter's death was a great story but just isn't feasible in the MCU( No Iron Man or Captain America, no Sinister Six) I doubt even Feige could pull together a story that would do it justice. It could lead to Peter faking his death somehow and Miles getting empowered through the story but that's the best option i can see being feasible.

[Ranxerox]

1 hour ago, Greywind said:

There's a good possibility Spider-Man will die in his next movie. After all, there's going to be how many in there?

 

22 minutes ago, Scott Ruggels said:

 

..and be replaced by Miles Morales. I have no problem with Miles Morales as a character, provided he has a good writer, but, killing off Peter Parker because he4's "Just another white male superhero", will have me boycotting Marvel after that.

 

With so many different actors playing versions of Spider-Man the chance of one of those Spider-Men dying is pretty good, but it won't be Tom Holland's Spider-Man.

[Bazza]

2 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

..and be replaced by Miles Morales. I have no problem with Miles Morales as a character, provided he has a good writer, but, killing off Peter Parker because he4's "Just another white male superhero", will have me boycotting Marvel after that.

And Sony? 

[Christopher R Taylor]

The problem with Spider-Man in the movies is that they rebooted it with three different actors in less than a decade, so nobody really associates the character with any particular actor.  And while that sort of works, since Spidey's entire body is covered up and anyone could be under that suit (like Captain Universe, great concept), it does hurt film loyalty and makes it tough for there to be real fans of the character.

[Ternaugh]

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

The problem with Spider-Man in the movies is that they rebooted it with three different actors in less than a decade, so nobody really associates the character with any particular actor.  And while that sort of works, since Spidey's entire body is covered up and anyone could be under that suit (like Captain Universe, great concept), it does hurt film loyalty and makes it tough for there to be real fans of the character.

 

They obviously messed everything up when they got rid of Nicholas Hammond. /s

 

The problem with Batman in the movies is that they rebooted it with three different actors in less than a decade, so nobody really associates the character with any particular actor.  And while that sort of works, since Batman's entire body is covered up and anyone could be under that suit (like Captain Universe, great concept), it does hurt film loyalty and makes it tough for there to be real fans of the character.

[zslane]

15 hours ago, Dr.Device said:

Captain Marvel was a blockbuster, by any reasonable definition.

 

Yes, it was. However, most folks I've heard discussing the movie since its release acknowledge that its massive success was entirely due to being the prelude to Avengers: Endgame rather than being a particularly great movie or because it carried the banner for female representation in the MCU. In my estimation, had it not been the lead-in film to Endgame, it would most likely have squeaked past the $600M mark and not much further.

[Dr.Device]

4 hours ago, zslane said:

Yes, it was. However, most folks I've heard discussing the movie since its release acknowledge that its massive success was entirely due to being the prelude to Avengers: Endgame rather than being a particularly great movie or because it carried the banner for female representation in the MCU. In my estimation, had it not been the lead-in film to Endgame, it would most likely have squeaked past the $600M mark and not much further.

 

Entirely? That's an interesting theory. Have you seen anything to support it other than the certainty that people couldn't have really liked the film enough to give it those numbers?

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

The problem with Batman in the movies is that they rebooted it with three different actors in less than a decade

 

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here, but repeating exactly what I said but putting "Batman" in, is mostly true as well.  Except for the part where Batman's costume doesn't cover his whole body so you can see the actor playing the part.  There's no huge buzz out there about wanting to see the next Batman film, partly because 'here we go again, who is this again??'  That hurts sales and loyalty.

 

I guess you can argue that Captain Marvel would have done as big sales if it wasn't between the big Avenger films, but I can't see any logic or industry reality to that.  Even the most positive reviews by viewers were pretty tepid about the film and the star.  The concept of tentpoles is very valid in movie production as well, although rarely seen as clearly as the MCU.

 

Don't expect any more billion dollar releases, and don't expect Captain Marvel 2 to do huge box office, is all I'm saying.

[Bazza]

Well until this whole pandemic thing is under control and pre-pandemic society returns as normal, the billion dollar box office will be off-the-table. 

[Dr.Device]

 

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I guess you can argue that Captain Marvel would have done as big sales if it wasn't between the big Avenger films, but I can't see any logic or industry reality to that. 

 

Where does Ant-Man and The Wasp fit into this theory? It also fell between Infinity War and Endgame, but made on modestly more than Ant-Man. 

 

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Even the most positive reviews by viewers were pretty tepid about the film and the star. 

 

My memory is more of a bunch of really positive reviews and a bunch of really negative reviews, with some in the middle. 

 

I can certainly seeCaptain Marvel's spot in the schedule boosting opening weekend somewhat, but I don't see that holding up long enough to get it to the levels it reached without a lot of fans really liking the movie. The idea that its position nearly doubled its take, but somehow only gave Ant-Man and The Wasp a modest boost, if any, strikes me as grasping at straws.

[Ranxerox]

1 minute ago, Dr.Device said:

 

I can certainly seeCaptain Marvel's spot in the schedule boosting opening weekend somewhat, but I don't see that holding up long enough to get it to the levels it reached without a lot of fans really liking the movie. The idea that its position nearly doubled its take, but somehow only gave Ant-Man and The Wasp a modest boost, if any, strikes me as grasping at straws.

 

Agreed.  Movies only break the billion dollar mark if they have legs, and that needs good word of mouth and/or people going to see the movie more than once.

[Ternaugh]

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here, but repeating exactly what I said but putting "Batman" in, is mostly true as well.  Except for the part where Batman's costume doesn't cover his whole body so you can see the actor playing the part.  There's no huge buzz out there about wanting to see the next Batman film, partly because 'here we go again, who is this again??'  That hurts sales and loyalty.

 

I guess you can argue that Captain Marvel would have done as big sales if it wasn't between the big Avenger films, but I can't see any logic or industry reality to that.  Even the most positive reviews by viewers were pretty tepid about the film and the star.  The concept of tentpoles is very valid in movie production as well, although rarely seen as clearly as the MCU.

 

Don't expect any more billion dollar releases, and don't expect Captain Marvel 2 to do huge box office, is all I'm saying.

 

I guess that I'll have to take it on the chin about Batman's costume covering everything. The basic premise of your original statement was that three actors in 10 years meant that people wouldn't be excited for another Spider-Man, and the counter-argument to that would be Batman Begins, which came after three other actors portrayed Batman in movies during the 90s.

[Greywind]

I get tired of them finding needs for Spider-Man to remove his mask when dealing with the bad guys. It doesn't happen in the comics. It shouldn't be happening in the movies.

[Grailknight]

3 hours ago, Greywind said:

I get tired of them finding needs for Spider-Man to remove his mask when dealing with the bad guys. It doesn't happen in the comics. It shouldn't be happening in the movies.

 

It happens in all superhero movies though. I guess they feel they have to show that it's really the actor in the suit.

[dmjalund]

12 hours ago, Ternaugh said:

They obviously messed everything up when they got rid of Nicholas Hammond. /s

i hear he's still available

[Greywind]

2 minutes ago, dmjalund said:

i hear he's still available

 

Spider-clone
Spider-clone

Someone throw that actor a bone

[death tribble]

9 hours ago, Greywind said:

I get tired of them finding needs for Spider-Man to remove his mask when dealing with the bad guys. It doesn't happen in the comics. It shouldn't be happening in the movies.

 

6 hours ago, Grailknight said:

It happens in all superhero movies though. I guess they feel they have to show that it's really the actor in the suit.

 

Although the point is well made and I thoroughly agree with it, you cannot show the full range of emotions on the face in a mask that covers the lower half of the face. This is also the reason why you don't have the full power armour suits in Starship Troopers. Grailknight is correct the studios want to show it is that particular actor. It ruins the mystery but we are not the ones putting up the money for the films.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

I get tired of them finding needs for Spider-Man to remove his mask when dealing with the bad guys. It doesn't happen in the comics. It shouldn't be happening in the movies.

 

Yeah, but as people say, the actors really want to take their mask off to show off their face (look at meee!!) and while a good actor with real skill can pull it off (V for Vendetta) its hard to emote and act with your face (and especially your eyes) covered.

 

Quote

the counter-argument to that would be Batman Begins, which came after three other actors portrayed Batman in movies during the 90s.

 

And not a single person alive was excited to hear about another Batman movie being made at the time.  It was only when word came out how good it was that people wanted to see the movie.

[Scott Ruggels]

1 minute ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Yeah, but as people say, the actors really want to take their mask off to show off their face (look at meee!!) and while a good actor with real skill can pull it off (V for Vendetta) its hard to emote and act with your face (and especially your eyes) covered.

 

...and this is what lead to difficulties in Season Two of the Mandalorian. Pedro Pascal, who I think is a pretty good actor, was tired of wearing the mask all the time, to the point he was losing enthusiasm for the role. Compromises were made.  It's what makes me admire Karl Urban all the more in Dredd, as he committed to the bit, and never took the helmet off. (Really good portrayal of Dredd, too, by the way.)

1 minute ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

 

And not a single person alive was excited to hear about another Batman movie being made at the time.  It was only when word came out how good it was that people wanted to see the movie.

 

It is looking like The Batman, may be a disaster, but mostly because of antics and sabotage by it's star.

Now I wish someone would explain that keeping the mask on "outside of "headquarters", means it's easier to conceal stunt performers, and therefore reducing the budget slightly as they don't need as much CG. CG Ain't cheap, as my price sheet displays