Marvel Cinematic Universe, Phase Three and BEYOOOOONND

[Christopher R Taylor]

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I think the creators of superhero comics, many of whom were Jewish immigrants, would be shocked to learn they were really indulging in fascist fantasy all that time

 

People like to throw around the term "fascist" as a generic bad guy term without a shred of comprehension what it was really about or stood for.  And its easy to take random parts of a movement and match them up with something wholly unrelated to smear it.  Slave owners were often farmers and owned land, guess who ELSE owns land and are farmers???  Its a pretty tired, ragged technique to smear ideological opponents or create boogie men, and I got sick of it decades ago.

 

Superheroes are about people who do good, at their own cost, to bring justice to a world that needs it.  Full stop.

[Lord Liaden]

5 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Superheroes are about people who do good, at their own cost, to bring justice to a world that needs it.  Full stop.

 

There it is in a nutshell. The remarkable thing about superheroes, is not just that they're power-fantasy fulfillers, but what they use that power for. They could defy law and government to do whatever they decide is best, but most of them submit themselves to lawful authority. They could kill anyone they think deserves it, but most abide by the judgements of the state. They are clearly measurably superior to most of humanity, but they still treat less gifted people with respect. They believe in and adhere to principles which often cost them personally, not out of fear of punishment (which their powers effectively insulate them from), but because they believe it's the right thing to do. Even if you believe their actions are mistaken in particular instances, that conduct is admirable.

 

Yes, superheroes are better than the average run of humanity. That's the point. They show us the best humanity is capable of, and inspire us to try to become better.

[Bazza]

Motto of superheroes:

 

"Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" ~ JFK 

 

[Bazza]

You know it! I'd vote for "Get Help"! 

[RDU Neil]

7 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

They could defy law and government to do whatever they decide is best, but most of them submit themselves to lawful authority.

 

It would also be heroic to defy unjust laws that serve to disenfranchise some people for the benefit of others.

 

 

7 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

They could kill anyone they think deserves it, but most abide by the judgements of the state.

 

It would also be heroic to resist the judgements of the state that protects killer cops and bombs civillians to maintain its economic hegemony.

 

7 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

They are clearly measurably superior to most of humanity, but they still treat less gifted people with respect.

 

Respect doesn't have to mean you don't provide options that could improve the state of the world that you, uniquely, with your superiority, could offer. It is also heroic to challenge foolishn and dangerous behavior that is inherent to baseline humanity.

 

 

7 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

They believe in and adhere to principles which often cost them personally, not out of fear of punishment (which their powers effectively insulate them from), but because they believe it's the right thing to do. Even if you believe their actions are mistaken in particular instances, that conduct is admirable.

 

That definition is also the basis of every super-villain motivation, ever. Even the Joker is adhering to certain principles (chaos and pain), immune to punishment (because he just doesn't care), and believes it is the right thing to do (his actions are the only true response to an insane world.) I'm sure some people admire that, too.

 

I'm not saying what you describe isn't heroic/superheroic... but that it isn't the ONLY way to be superheroic... and that none of these aspects are perfect, pure and unassailable, without flaw and negative repercussions, as some would insist, "full stop."

 

 

[Lord Liaden]

9 minutes ago, RDU Neil said:

 

It would also be heroic to defy unjust laws that serve to disenfranchise some people for the benefit of others.

 

 

 

It would also be heroic to resist the judgements of the state that protects killer cops and bombs civillians to maintain its economy hegemony.

 

 

 

Yes. Which is why Allied superheroes fought in WW II -- there was a clear aggressor oppressing and killing innocent people. But most American superheroes have always held that their own system of government and law is, in principle and in general, just; and where it isn't it should and can be reformed, not overthrown.

 

But some supers have felt and acted differently, with the best of intentions; and those differences have led to conflicts. And some of those conflicts have produced entertaining stories. Not all, but some.

[Christopher R Taylor]

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Yes, superheroes are better than the average run of humanity. That's the point. They show us the best humanity is capable of, and inspire us to try to become better.

 

And none of it has any slightest relationship or connection at any sane level whatsoever with fascism.

[Armory]

16 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

People like to throw around the term "fascist" as a generic bad guy term without a shred of comprehension what it was really about or stood for.  And its easy to take random parts of a movement and match them up with something wholly unrelated to smear it.  Slave owners were often farmers and owned land, guess who ELSE owns land and are farmers???  Its a pretty tired, ragged technique to smear ideological opponents or create boogie men, and I got sick of it decades ago.

 

Superheroes are about people who do good, at their own cost, to bring justice to a world that needs it.  Full stop.

 

Yet the fascist undertones of the superhero genre are exactly what were examined in, and really the entire point of, Watchmen.  This is not a new concept.

[Starlord]

Strange that I never got fascism from Watchmen.  A (what-if) story of good guys gone bad with the cold war extended into a dystopian future and morally bankrupt 'superheroes'. The fascism in the story never really had much to do with the main characters, just the governments.  I always viewed that as kind of a false narrative for that book.  There were only 2-3 'real' heroes in the story IMO.  Ymmv.

[RDU Neil]

3 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

But most American superheroes have always held that their own system of government and law is, in principle and in general, just; and where it isn't it should and can be reformed, not overthrown.

 

This is probably where we differ, in that I'd add "But most white, cis-gendered male, landowner Americans have always held... in general, just" because for them, it is. (And I'm one of them, don't get me wrong.)

 

And whether supers using their power and influence to change the government and law is "reform" or "overthrow" is most likely based on who perceives to have gained or lost by that change.

 

 

 

 

[zslane]

Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns were deconstructionist works intended to unravel the tapestry of superhero tradition and reweave it into something completely different. There is little in the way of traditional superheroics going on in either work, and neither stands as representative of the genre. They were never meant to be. Just because publishers cashed in on the widespread misunderstanding/misinterpretation of those comics and churned out countless comics where amoral anti-heroes supplanted the roles previously filled by what I would call "genuine" superheroes, doesn't mean that the true meaning of Christmas "superhero" has changed so drastically that the fascist undertones found in those (much) smarter works can be said to have revealed the genre's hidden ethical foundation.

[RDU Neil]

11 minutes ago, zslane said:

Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns were deconstructionist works intended to unravel the tapestry of superhero tradition and reweave it into something completely different. There is little in the way of traditional superheroics going on in either work, and neither stands as representative of the genre. They were never meant to be. Just because publishers cashed in on the widespread misunderstanding/misinterpretation of those comics and churned out countless comics where amoral anti-heroes supplanted the roles previously filled by what I would call "genuine" superheroes, doesn't mean that the true meaning of Christmas "superhero" has changed so drastically that the fascist undertones found in those (much) smarter works can be said to have revealed the genre's hidden ethical foundation.

 

I'd say this is an over reaction. It isn't trying to say that fascism is the 'hidden ethical foundation" of superheroes, but that the traditional superhero myth has PARALLELS to traditional populist desires and beliefs. That the same impulses (stalwart, righteous defense of perceived victims in the face of perceived threat/oppression) can support a mostly positive, constructive (and I'd personally hope) progressive society, as could be used to form a hardline, traditionalist, elitist and fascist society... that is what is being noted.

 

Yes, many bad comics were written that mistook the quality of the subtext of deconstructionist works for "ggrrrr... big gun... call me BLUDSOAKKNIFEPHYSTER!" awfulness is true. It doesn't undermine the fact that the best comic stories are the ones that recognize the duality presented, and wrestle with the moral questions... not ignore them, or assume everything has a simplistic, reductionist "I'm good because I'm a hero, I'm a hero because I'm good" mentality.

 

A good example is from one of my favorite comic runs... Warren Ellis on Stormwatch that lead into the first Authority run... where various plots explored how supers could be complex characters, with bad and good aspects to them, both positive and negative actions, from heroes and villains... a really fascinating take on "People with power change the world". Great stuff, but the back half, when Millar took over Authority and turned quirky, flawed, but ultimately noble characters into raging, debauched assholes... showed how badly the direction can be taken.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Watchmen was an examination of several worldviews in conflict, told in a sci fi story with costumed crimefighters as the actors. You had Nihilism and Objectivism and so on, all battling out for supremacy in a story.  Fascism was not really even a part of the story at any level.  Again, FASCIST has a very specific definition and I wish people would stop misusing it.  It does not mean "tyranny" or "abuse of power."

[zslane]

A fascinating take is only that, a fascinating take. An interesting detour from the path of convention. If you dig deep enough into anything positive and well-intentioned, you can twist it to find a "parallel" that is dark and ominous and, ultimately, deconstructionist. It's not unlike all the different forms of literary criticism (i.e., analysis) which while valid on some academic level, do little to identify a work's "real meaning", and generally only serve to make the critics feel like they have some important scholarly purpose (I should know, I almost married one).

 

[Lord Liaden]

I actually found Mark Gruenwald's original Squadron Supreme mini-series to be a much more interesting exploration of just what we've been talking about -- a group of superhumans who decide to take ultimate control of the world, with the absolute best of intentions to make it more peaceful and more just. In some ways they succeeded, but the series also explored the weaknesses inherent in that approach. Their program depended on the motivations and personalities of a small group of people without accountability or oversight, so when disagreements and conflicts arose arose among them that spilled over into the wider society. The loss of a few key individuals to enemies or circumstances seriously impaired their ability to maintain control. That's apart from issues of ethics, notably the use of technology to reprogram the minds of "criminals" to change their attitudes and behavior, making them productive citizens but essentially robbing them of free will.

 

Other venues have explored the understandable distrust, fear, and "us vs them" mentality engendered in normal people by the concentration of a great deal of power among a small group of extraordinary beings who can't be controlled; including Civil War (comic series and movie) and the Justice League Unlimited cartoon series. And that's without the groups in question even trying to take over the world.

[Lord Liaden]

2 hours ago, RDU Neil said:

This is probably where we differ, in that I'd add "But most white, cis-gendered male, landowner Americans have always held... in general, just" because for them, it is. (And I'm one of them, don't get me wrong.)

 

And whether supers using their power and influence to change the government and law is "reform" or "overthrow" is most likely based on who perceives to have gained or lost by that change.

 

I figured that was one splitting-point in our opinions, and it's a perfectly reasonable perspective to take.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Superhero films, so far, are less about being heroic and more about being just action stars with powers.  They do some noble and heroic things, but for the most part its reacting to the circumstances.  There are some few but welcome exceptions of course but I'd like to see a move more toward altrustic do gooders aiding those in need and fighting for justice, not "oops now I gotta fix this."

 

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And whether supers using their power and influence to change the government and law is "reform" or "overthrow" is most likely based on who perceives to have gained or lost by that change.

 

Its never reform if you change government through power.  It may be justified, but its always revolt or overthrow.  Reform is done through the system, from within.

[Starlord]

Captain Marvel will be action-comedy

[Joe Walsh]

How dumb! Who ever heard of a comic book being funny? 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

I demand my funny books be serious!

I don't mind this too much but I hope they don't just go with zany road movie from now on because Thor: Ragnarok worked :/

[Bazza]

Kree-Skull War = action comedy.  

[Greywind]

Too early to consider Skrulls.

[Starlord]

Blade:  The Musical

[Old Man]

2 hours ago, Greywind said:

Too early to consider Skrulls.

 

Wrong.  Every MCU character so far is actually an amnesiac Skrull.

 

Except Mystique.

[zslane]

I guess Mystique is so good at blending in, nobody noticed she snuck in from a different cinematic universe.