Marvel Cinematic Universe, Phase Three and BEYOOOOONND

[zslane]

4 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

The practical underlying reasons for the Sokovia Accords can be argued, but public concern over extraordinarily powerful individuals active in the world without accountability is clearly one factor.

 

Indeed. But "the public" doesn't get to manage the Avengers under the Accords. The UN is supposed to do that on their behalf. That's the underlying problem with the Accords as written. Putting "operational limits" on superheroes is a reasonable thing to propose, but using the UN as the means to do it is an extremely dubious solution. Having 117 governments with agendas that are contentious, entangled, and rarely motivated by a desire to do the Right Thing regulating and controlling a crisis-response resource like the Avengers is not something anyone with superpowers should willingly consent to, IMO.

[Lord Liaden]

But what's the alternative? There is no mechanism by which "the public" can exercise direct oversight on the Avengers. Any one government having control of them would probably induce the same fear and envy we've always seen over development of nuclear weapons, and promote an "arms race" with rival nations to create their own supers.

 

To be fair, the majority of nations in the UN often come to consensus over various resolutions; but those are usually non-binding, or are vetoed by one of the permanent Security Council members who see it as infringing on its interests. But as was already raised on this thread, MCU Earth has dealt with alien invasions and super-terrorist groups, which may change people's perspective on cooperation for mutual survival.

 

We know the Avengers are true heroes who would never abuse their power, because we've come to know them intimately as persons, in the comics and now movies. The vast majority of Marvel Earth don't have that luxury, and are looking for some kind of reassurance. Heck, even Batman keeps a chunk of kryptonite in case his good friend Superman should go rogue.

[Bazza]

Johansson's $15 million salary is the same that Evans & Hemsworth earned for Civil War (Evans), Thor Ragnarok (Hemsworth), Infinity War, and Avengers 4. 

[Lord Liaden]

Quite so, which is part of what makes it justifiable in Johansson's case. Still seems like an excessive figure for anyone to me; but like I always say, things are "worth" whatever someone is willing to pay for them.

[Bazza]

The resources that Tony put into the Avengers new compound, plus the Avengers themselves makes them the equivalent of a private military with global reach. Even if benevolent, having that kind of organisation to pursue its own agenda & interests would scare any number of governments, plus the norms of international peace, order & justice. 

 

Also, the Avengers are benevolent in their pursuit of the mission, however they have caused or exacerbated events they have been involved with ie collateral damage. 

 

- Sokovia -- Tony's attempt to fill the void left by SHIELD by deploying remote controlled armour drones operated by an AI like Jarvis. Collateral damage report: AI infused itself to a drone and took a major city in Solovia skyward before releasing it back to Earth like a meteor. 

 

- Crossbones incident: collateral damage is that Scarlet Witch accidentally threw a bomb that detonated into a nearby building causing a number of deaths & a diplomatic incident. If Wakanda wanted to sue the Avengers on behalf of their people, which court of law hears the case? 

 

In other words, the Avengers are well intentioned, but are not as efficient as they could be. To others, namely foreign governments the Avengers operate in; they appear reckless, sloppy etc with the government having to "clean up the mess". 

 

Other incidents and events the Avengers have been involved in: Battle of New York, the Triskalian (Winter Soldier), London (Dark World), South Africa (Hulk vs Hulkbuster), UN (when Bucky was framed), etc. 

 

All this reached a point in which governments of the world decided "enough is enough". Some kind of supervision is needed to coordinate & minimise the unintended damage The Avengers leave in their wake to protect Earth & its people from extraordinary threats. 

 

Tony agreed with their assessment and he had the most to lose, ie the investment in the Avengers & the new Avengers compound. 

 

Steve disagreed, believing that the safest hands of the Avengers were themselves, ie self governance. 

 

Really, both Tony AND Steve are right, however only one of them is allowed to continue under the framework of Sokovia Accords... to maintain some sense of international order & diplomacy between nations. 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

They've made like 5 billion overall so 15 mill as an investment might seem reasonable.  I don't know if it is or not, Johannsen doesn't exactly blow me out of my socks as a screen presence but it will be up to the writers and director to make it work

[archer]

58 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

They've made like 5 billion overall so 15 mill as an investment might seem reasonable.  I don't know if it is or not, Johannsen doesn't exactly blow me out of my socks as a screen presence but it will be up to the writers and director to make it work

 

I like to look at it this way.

 

Filming for the original Avengers movie took from April 2011 until December which is slightly longer than a season of major league baseball. The actors had additional time commitments to the film's publicity before its theatrical release but if we ignore that, the time the actors had to block out for work on the film was about the same length as the pre-season, regular season, and post-season of MBL.

 

Looking at the top earners of Major league baseball of the 2017 season, the top earner made $33 million. The guy who was at the bottom of the top 25 most highly paid players made $21 million. https://www.businessinsider.com/mlb-highest-paid-players-2017-6#t24-jayson-werth-210-million-1

 

If you compare the top actor in a film named for that actor's character and the film is expected to be a blockbuster, paying her $15 million for her entertainment efforts seems like it's coming off cheap compared to  major league baseball salaries.

 

To find someone who made as little as $15 million dollars for this season, you'd have to look all the way down to the 70th most highly paid player in major league baseball. https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/rankings/

 

Is your leading actor worth as much as the 70th most highly paid player in major league baseball?

[Lord Liaden]

Please don't get me started on the salaries of major-league athletes.

[slikmar]

The one good thing about the movie, is whether you agree or not, you can see both sides of the argument - unlike the travesty that was the Civil War in the comics.

[Greywind]

Spider-Man's costume for Far From Home is red/black.

[Bazza]

Iron Fist cancelled. 

[Pattern Ghost]

Hopefully, they'll slot in Daughters of the Dragon to replace it.

[Bazza]

If they do I'll let you know. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Its sad they just bailed on Iron Fist instead of putting a better effort into fixing it.

[pinecone]

27 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Its sad they just bailed on Iron Fist instead of putting a better effort into fixing it.

Yeah, they did get better, but it still wasn't Good. 2 seasons is pretty good for a show that didn't work though.

[zslane]

It is a real shame given how good it could have been. It's not like the format/medium (Netflix streaming) imposes insurmountable creative challenges on the genre (just look how good Daredevil is), so really there's no excuse for Iron Fist being so underwhelming. Jeff Loeb simply lacked vision for the property, and cancellation was the natural and inevitable result.

[zslane]

19 hours ago, Bazza said:

In other words, the Avengers are well intentioned, but are not as efficient as they could be. To others, namely foreign governments the Avengers operate in; they appear reckless, sloppy etc with the government having to "clean up the mess". 

 

I'm quite aware of the fact that superhero teams are far from perfect, that they make mistakes, and that collateral damage is typically a consequence of saving the world (and BTW, I believe Tony Stark spends a lot of his company's money "cleaning up his messes", and doesn't just leave it to the victims and their governments). But regardless of how the efforts of the Avengers appear to foreign governments, the underlying issue is what is truly the best thing to do about superpowered individuals/teams, not what can merely be done as a (political) salve to assuage the concerns of a frightened and ignorant public. If you only look at the cost of stopping an alien invasion or a Hydra takeover or the annihilation quest of a mad Titan after the fact, rather than consider the cost of not stopping it at all, then it becomes all too easy to use a flawed calculus in determining how to cope with the reality of collateral damage in a universe as dangerous as the MCU.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Were I to run Iron Fist I'd have done it like this:

 

Pick a different actor, Hipster McNeckbeard was just not up to the task.

Get a hot and talented fight coordinator out of Hong Kong or somewhere similar.  They are all over there and are looking to trade up.  Give them a small budget, so they have to be creative and don't get too complacent but take advantage of their ideas.  They can recycle stuff from older movies few have seen.

 

The story goes like this: First season is him in K'un L'un finishing his training. It is unbelievably ascetic and disciplined, with absolutely no time for contemplation, relaxation, fun, or anything but training to deal with the great evil.  Show that he's been doing this since a young age, and it is relentless every day.  He finally achieves the status where he can get the dragon brand and gain the Iron Fist ability.  He is sent into the world to find and defeat the great evil (NOT the Hand, something different so Iron Fist is not subordinate to every single other show and movie out there.  The hand is a side show, a minor blip compared to his target).

 

He gets to the real world rather naive, and not at all the super rich son of wealth and power missing for years in the east now coming back to take control of his family empire (overused, boring, I don't care if its what the Ultimate universe requires).  He struggles in this new culture not only with the lack of discipline and rampant immorality around him (compared to his ascetic life) but just to find food to eat.  He decides its time to become a Hero for Hire: he can do good deeds and help people out but its gonna cost you.  Not only is this easy to rationalize, but it gives him the pleasures and ease he's never known in life.

 

Don't Booster Gold him, he's a genuine hero, but he needs to eat, too and firefighters get paid, right?  That doesn't make them any less a hero.  Plenty of little scenarios here he can run: bodyguard, PI, helping someone too poor to pay but he's got enough he'll take it anyway, helping a rich tycoon out, etc.

 

End the first season with him triumphing over some big bad problem and being famous, rich and well-regarded.  It worked, it was a good idea, he's a sensation! 

 

Second Season: Hero for Hire is the next big thing, he's started a trend.  But some of these heroes aren't such great guys and he has to deal with them, as well as groupies, fanbois, corrupt people trying to use him, etc.  Things go downhill and by the end of the second season he's a miserable disaster; disgraced, humiliated, debauched, and realizing he's betrayed every single thing that he stood for and claimed to want to be, including his K'un L'un training.  He's even lost his way in hunting down the big evil and has by this point gotten a bit out of shape and is losing his Iron Fist ability.

Third season: Luke Cage takes him under his wing and gently teaches him to be a hero.  Look, if you want to make money at this, that's okay but its a side benefit, not the real job.  The real thing is helping people who need help, and always standing up for what you believe in; integrity, heroism, truth, justice, honor, liberty, etc.  Don't compromise and never lose sight of that goal that drove you to train into this ability.  He becomes a true Hero and confronts the big evil by the end.

 

Fourth season: the big evil, which in defeating simply creates a bunch of lesser evils.  Danny Rand has hit his stride, he's able to handle the responsibility and pressures, and in the process has set up Heroes for Hire as a business, with a staff of heroes who do work but their heart, their core is directed by Luke Cage who provides the moral center and heroic ideal.

 

That's how I'd do it at least.

[slikmar]

1 hour ago, zslane said:

It is a real shame given how good it could have been. It's not like the format/medium (Netflix streaming) imposes insurmountable creative challenges on the genre (just look how good Daredevil is), so really there's no excuse for Iron Fist being so underwhelming. Jeff Loeb simply lacked vision for the property, and cancellation was the natural and inevitable result.

Not sure it was lack of vision, as trying to fit, what is really a "mystic" character, into a street level, "realistic" campaign. Sadly, if they had gone into it thinking Hong Kong Wire-Fu, might have been better.

[zslane]

5 minutes ago, slikmar said:

Not sure it was lack of vision, as trying to fit, what is really a "mystic" character, into a street level, "realistic" campaign. Sadly, if they had gone into it thinking Hong Kong Wire-Fu, might have been better.

 

Maybe it's just semantics, but I consider trying to shoehorn a character drenched in Eastern mysticism into a gritty street-level environment (and doing it in the most underwhelming way possible) to be the direct by-product of a profound lack of creative vision for the Iron Fist property.

[Christopher R Taylor]

It could have worked no problem, I mean Kung Fu was a Chinese martial artist in the old west.  It just was a matter of no feel for the character and poor writing.

[Bazza]

Loki the hero.

[Lord Liaden]

Whatever question Tom Hiddleston is asked by whomever, he always gives a serious, thoughtful, insightful answer. This is an actor who brings depth to his craft.

[Dr.Device]

11 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

Whatever question Tom Hiddleston is asked by whomever, he always gives a serious, thoughtful, insightful answer. This is an actor who brings depth to his craft.

 

Tom Hiddleston: The choices we make have a lasting impact. Not just on ourselves, but on those around us. On our communities. Even on the world. When considering the question before us, we must take into account--

 

Clerk, interrupting: Sir, I just need to know whether you want paper or plastic.

[Bazza]

Production on GotG Vol 3 delayed, will commence in 3 years. 

 

 

Pepper may be donning Rescue armour.

 

Michael Douglas essentially confirms that the Quantum Realm is integral to A4.