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Ragitsu

[Police brutality] American injustice, yet again.

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On 6/2/2018 at 9:35 AM, Pattern Ghost said:

PDF link to some court documents (I haven't finished reading them yet):

 

https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/deputy.pdf

 

Edit: From this, it looks like the deputy shot the guy and got lucky finding (or "finding" even) a gun on him after the fact. The head shot was immediately incpacitating according to coroner testimony, and although it was the last of the shots fired, it's pretty unlikely the highly drunk victim got the gun in his back pocket in the time it took to dump four shots on him. So, the call of negligence from the jury seems correct at first blush.

The judge was like the testimony doesn't match up and I am going to deny part of your claims. The SWAT team arrived and busted the garage door down after gassing the house. I wonder what they were thinking when no one struggled to get out.

 

CES

 

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10 hours ago, Jagged said:

Which no doubt means music of black origin. 

 

From CNN:

 

Testimony showed Hill was playing Drake's "All Me," a song rife with F-bombs and N-words. The mother took offense and called police.

 

That's the song. I don't want to assume, so why don't you plainly make the point you're trying to make? I thought the initial question was whether the police had a legitimate reason to be on the scene in the first place. It looks on the surface like they did. It seems that you're making the suggestion that they were only on scene because of racism? Is it racist not to want kids to hear profanity and sexual references while at school?

 

Here's the song (NSFW, of course):

 

 

 

 

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17 hours ago, Ragitsu said:

The NRA has been oddly silent on this case.

 

7 hours ago, Pattern Ghost said:

 

Why should they comment?

 

Because, in this case, if the deceased had been holding any form of rifle the actions of the police would seem more reasonable. There are plenty of cases where someone is shot holding a brick, or a cell phone, or stuffed animal because the police thought it appeared similar to a firearm. A rifle would have been large enough to be obvious.

The NRA doesn't want anyone to realize that a ban on handguns would make "it looked like" deaths even more suspicious because anything legitimizing a small bit of gun control sounds (to the NRA) like the first steps on a slippery slope to losing their rights. It's the same reason supporters of gender equality avoid any discussions as to why FMLA rules only apply to husbands if the pregnant/postnatal spouse is incapacitated, it's a case where applying unequal rules based on gender is logical so it seems like the first step in devaluing any gains they might have made.

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Well, that's certainly a unique take on things. I doubt the NRA has considered that angle. I doubt any of the major gun control advocates has thought of that angle. And Heller pretty much put the nail in the coffin of handgun bans for the moment anyway.

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The NRA is "curiously" silent on events wherein black gun owners are mistreated. I got a life membership with them decades ago, when I was young and naive and things were different . . . I keep meaning to write them a resignation letter but not getting around to it.

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Yeah, they're definitely aren't what they used to be. (Or at least used to appear to be.) They like to talk the talk when it comes to minorities, but I don't think they walk the walk.

 

OTOH, I still don't see any reason for them to comment on this case. It has nothing to do with the victim's gun rights being violated. And the theory presented by clnicholsusa is more than a little flawed.

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1 hour ago, Ragitsu said:

 

As if that wasn't bad enough, scroll down in this article that was linked in that one:

 

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/mesa/2018/06/05/mesa-officers-leave-after-video-shows-man-being-punched/675521002/

 

And look at what the same PD did to an 84 year old woman.

 

It looks like Mesa needs a thorough house cleaning.

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On 6/4/2018 at 6:56 PM, Pattern Ghost said:

 

From CNN:

 

 

 

 

That's the song. I don't want to assume, so why don't you plainly make the point you're trying to make? I thought the initial question was whether the police had a legitimate reason to be on the scene in the first place. It looks on the surface like they did. It seems that you're making the suggestion that they were only on scene because of racism? Is it racist not to want kids to hear profanity and sexual references while at school?

 

Here's the song (NSFW, of course):

 

 

 

 

MF clearly deserved shooting

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5 hours ago, Jagged said:

MF clearly deserved shooting

 

If playing loud lewd music while drunk deserves shooting then they need to fit everyone for bullet-proof vests and/or coffins from their senior year in high school  until they turn 30.

 

What it deserved was a citation, what happened was a murder.

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19 hours ago, Jagged said:

MF clearly deserved shooting

 

18 hours ago, Pattern Ghost said:

 

Do you have a cogent point to make here, or are you just venting?

 

18 hours ago, Ragitsu said:

 

???

 

13 hours ago, Grailknight said:

 

If playing loud lewd music while drunk deserves shooting then they need to fit everyone for bullet-proof vests and/or coffins from their senior year in high school  until they turn 30.

 

What it deserved was a citation, what happened was a murder.

 

I suspect Jagged was trying to be sarcastic - which really doesn't come across well on the Internet.  If I'm wrong, my apologies.

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4 hours ago, BoloOfEarth said:

I suspect Jagged was trying to be sarcastic - which really doesn't come across well on the Internet.  If I'm wrong, my apologies.

 

I know he was being sarcastic. It was still a pointless post that added nothing to the discussion.

 

Multiquoting from a previous page is a bit of a pain, but in this post, clnicholsusa said:

 

Quote

To me, the hard part is the missing information. There must have been a suspicion of some specific crime to start with, otherwise the police officers wouldn't have been at that location.

 

To which I replied:

 

 

On 6/2/2018 at 1:58 AM, Pattern Ghost said:

 

They were called because of a complaint of excessively loud and profane music. It's in the article linked by Ragitsu.

 

To which Jagged replied:

 

 

On 6/3/2018 at 11:58 PM, Jagged said:

Which no doubt means music of black origin. 

 

 

So, that's where the exchange starts. Jagged's entire contribution to the thread is a statement about the music being of black origin and the second sarcastic statement.


He hasn't stated anything specific, but it looks like he's suggesting that the initial call may have been racially motivated?*

 

But we don't really know that's what Jagged is suggesting, because he won't actually engage in discussion. I specifically asked him what he meant, and the one liner in his last post was the only response.

 

I don't think anyone in this thread thinks the victim should have been shot. I have no doubt in my mind that he was shot because of his race, at the very least at the subconscious level. (i.e.: loud black men are scary). The jury in the case thinks the shooting was negligent. The original article was wondering WTF the jury was thinking with the small award amount for the case, not the verdict. (I also posted a detailed article explaining what may have happened there.)

 

Since we pretty much agree the cop shouldn't have shot the guy for being loud or for shutting his garage door, and that the police were in the wrong here, that leaves two explanations for Jagged's comments that come to mind: Either he's just venting that a guy got shot for being black and loud (fair enough), or he thinks the original complaint was racially motivated (unsupported so far as I know.)

 

*Comment on that:

 

 


Maybe so, maybe not. It could have just as well been an African American parent who made the call. I mean, the victim's own kid went to the school, and the school was across from the victim's house. So, I doubt the victim's child (daughter, IIRC) was the only black kid at the school.
 

 

 

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20 hours ago, Grailknight said:

 

If playing loud lewd music while drunk deserves shooting then they need to fit everyone for bullet-proof vests and/or coffins from their senior year in high school  until they turn 30.

 

 

30?!  For the record, I still play it loud, and it will only get louder as my hearing deteriorates.  Hope you like Pantera.  ;)

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Part of my exasperation stems from the fact that there is always a percentage of people within the United States that are quick to rationalize a state-sanctioned street execution (as opposed to the more formal use of the term) no matter the circumstances. We're now at a point where, if a police officer kills someone in a situation where deescalation would have prevented a casualty, we just shrug our shoulders and move on. Along with our school shootings, we've accepted both injustices as a fact of life.

 

Loud music? Drunk? Black? You mean he wasn't handing out food to the poor while performing free dental cleaning on the side out of the goodness of his heart? "Good enough for my conscience." I don't buy the idea that the man waved an empty gun willy-nilly at law enforcement "just because", intoxicated or no: for a black guy in the United States, that's basically a death sentence.

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1 hour ago, Ragitsu said:

We're now at a point where, if a police officer kills someone in a situation where deescalation would have prevented a casualty, we just shrug our shoulders and move on.

 

Or even just lack of escalation, in this case.

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On 6/6/2018 at 5:26 PM, Zeropoint said:

The NRA is "curiously" silent on events wherein black gun owners are mistreated. I got a life membership with them decades ago, when I was young and naive and things were different . . . I keep meaning to write them a resignation letter but not getting around to it.

 

And now the letter IS written and sitting in the mailbox. Reading about how the NRA allegedly acted as a conduit for Russians to funnel money into campaigning for Trump was the last straw that made me finally fire up the word processor. I realizes that THAT particular thing is only allegations at this point, BUT even if it's not true, the NRA has committed enough verified wrongs to make me want to disassociate myself from them.

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20 hours ago, Ragitsu said:

 

It'll be interesting to see if this falls under the fleeing felon rule. It seems like it will, given the information in the article, but I suppose it'll also be up to specific state law.

 

ETA:

 

Here's a Vox article on the Antwon Rose shooting. It really doesn't say much more about the case, but it has a pretty decent (IMO) discussion of use of force laws, including the aforementioned fleeing felon rule and the cases that set the precedent for same.

 

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3 hours ago, wcw43921 said:

 

 

I am horribly confused.

 

Beer, spicy corn chip snacks, and menthol cigarettes are racist.  Two things are terribly surprising here:

 

1) beer, junk food, and inhaled cancer belong to a particular race.

 

2) I am evidently black.

 

 

I have to lie down.....

 

 

(and no grief: I gave up smoking years ago, save for my twice-a-year cigar)

 

 

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