archer Posted February 3, 2021 Report Share Posted February 3, 2021 1 hour ago, Ragitsu said: Police unions appear to be experts at circling the wagons. That's kind of what they're paid for: to protect their own members. It'd be nice if we could expect people to do What's Right, in a metaphysical sense, rather than protecting their own. But a union accepts money to protect their members in much the same way that a lawyer accepts money to protect his client: the guilt or innocence of the union member is as of little concern to the union as the guilt or innocence of a client is to a law firm that's representing the own client. It's not much of a surprise that the union is expert at circling the wagons. They're paid to be expert at their job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Bushido Posted February 3, 2021 Report Share Posted February 3, 2021 It's weird, isnt it? Every other union seems to know what to do with "bad apples." The police union just promotes them. Ragitsu 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted February 3, 2021 Report Share Posted February 3, 2021 2 hours ago, archer said: That's kind of what they're paid for: to protect their own members. It'd be nice if we could expect people to do What's Right, in a metaphysical sense, rather than protecting their own. But a union accepts money to protect their members in much the same way that a lawyer accepts money to protect his client: the guilt or innocence of the union member is as of little concern to the union as the guilt or innocence of a client is to a law firm that's representing the own client. It's not much of a surprise that the union is expert at circling the wagons. They're paid to be expert at their job. We all know the esteem that lawyers are held in by the public. And police wonder why the public distrusts them? But lawyers don't primarily defend other lawyers. They don't bargain or threaten for what they want, they submit arguments to a third party who decides the outcome. And lawyers aren't given the authority to enforce the law, to employ force against other citizens. It's not that it would be nice if police did the right thing; it's imperative for the long term benefit of both the public and themselves to do the right thing, at least in the face of overwhelming evidence as with this case. Police want to govern themselves, but if they can't demonstrate they're willing to take responsibility then they don't deserve to govern themselves. Duke Bushido, Twilight, Ragitsu and 3 others 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archer Posted February 3, 2021 Report Share Posted February 3, 2021 4 hours ago, Duke Bushido said: It's weird, isnt it? Every other union seems to know what to do with "bad apples." The police union just promotes them. Wow, your experience with unions seems to be much different than my own. Starlord and Tom Cowan 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Bushido Posted February 3, 2021 Report Share Posted February 3, 2021 35 minutes ago, archer said: Wow, your experience with unions seems to be much different than my own. I'm in a will-to-work state. Unions work better here, because they have to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted February 3, 2021 Report Share Posted February 3, 2021 13 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said: I'm in a will-to-work state. Unions work better here, because they have to. Interesting. I would have assumed that would make unions fight even harder to secure protections for their members. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Bushido Posted February 4, 2021 Report Share Posted February 4, 2021 Not so much. It makes them work harder to "be the good guy." It's not common, but I have run into more than one person booted from the union. I've even hired a couple (briefly: if you can't keep work in the union, it's really unlikely you can keep it without the union. The problem seems to be... Well, that's an obvious one, I guess). I haven't seen that in a "join a union or you can't have a job" state, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sicarius Posted February 4, 2021 Report Share Posted February 4, 2021 My post is in response to a ongoing rant in favor of criminals over police. The child is a minor point. Haha! See what I did there? Once again, we do know what was going on with that kid so neither you or I can speak intelligently about what the police should have done. I have no idea why that was done so I'll reserve judgement. Right now its is just an emotional reaction based upon a visual image and untrustworthy news outlets. For all I know she had just slit the throat of her baby sister. Time enough to roast them, if warranted, when you have the facts. Ruby Ridge and Waco were both a travesty justice and Janet Reno and the officers involved should have been held accountable for their crimes. I am all for bad cops and officials getting harsh punishment. Death peanilty included if warranted. I say this after the facts came out, which were nothing like the media or officials initially portrayed. As for many of these other creeps I say good riddens. Not based upon age or color but upon their history. I dont want St Floyd types around my wife or children. I again caution against jumping to conclusions based upon some biased 'propaganda' piece where the facts are second to sensationalism and ratings. Crime in the US is not crime in Canada. What's the chance Captain Canada has a handgun? Canadian criminals are guys who hand out incorrect change at McDonald's. 😁 Resisting arrest in Finland is saying, 'I dont want to go'. Each situation needs to be truthfully evaluated. Judged based on facts, not a half informed emotion reaction to a preconceived world view. Statistics are not facts. 29 killed by cops does not say why they were killed. Only that they were. What you did to X on day 1 has nothing to do with what you did with Y on day 2. Give the good guys the benefit of the doubt until the investigation is over. There is a reason they responded to a call in the first place. Do you think? Why were the cops called? A crime in progress perhaps? How about a thread enumerating all the innocent victims of these media driven riots and defund the police advocates? Nah! That would paint criminals, ANTIFA, and the anti-police advocacy groups in a bad light and we all know they are truly the good guys that we want as babysitters and teachers. I personally believe most cops have better things to do than get vilified, thrown off the force, tossed in jail and have their family's threatened so when they respond harshly you can dam well bet most of them thought they had a good reason. But this, like religion and politics, is an issue based upon ones reasoning, moral compass and up bringing and I don't expect to connect with anyone heading in the opposite direction. So with that I'll move on to more constructive topics and say good day to you from the other side of the blue line. Over here we silly folks like to give the police and soldiers the benefit of the doubt before siding with the criminals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archer Posted February 4, 2021 Report Share Posted February 4, 2021 5 minutes ago, Sicarius said: Once again, we do know what was going on with that kid so neither you or I can speak intelligently about what the police should have done. I have no idea why that was done so I'll reserve judgement. Right now its is just an emotional reaction based upon a visual image and untrustworthy news outlets. For all I know she had just slit the throat of her baby sister. Honestly, no one has linked to the news story, that I've seen, and I have no idea what details of the story have been made public or not. But from what others have said in this thread, the police pepper sprayed a kid who was already in the back of a police cruiser. If that's what happened, I don't care if the kid slit the throat of the pope: that was completely inappropriate behavior from the police. I have every confidence that a nine year old kid could flat out kill me if she tried because I'm not exactly in robust health. But even I could control a nine year old kid who's already in the back of a police cruiser without resorting to using a weapon. If the police actually used a weapon on a kid after she was safely in custody, the police were solidly in the wrong. Period. Period. Lawnmower Boy, Twilight, Dr.Device and 6 others 8 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted February 4, 2021 Report Share Posted February 4, 2021 Honestly, Sicarius, as a Canadian, the ignorance and flippancy you display toward the status of crime in Canada makes me even less inclined to treat your screed seriously. EDIT: Dan, if that crossed the line I'll remove this post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archer Posted February 4, 2021 Report Share Posted February 4, 2021 12 hours ago, Lord Liaden said: Honestly, Sicarius.... You are not wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csyphrett Posted February 4, 2021 Report Share Posted February 4, 2021 1 hour ago, Sicarius said: Crime in the US is not crime in Canada. What's the chance Captain Canada has a handgun? Canadian criminals are guys who hand out incorrect change at McDonald's. 😁 Resisting arrest in Finland is saying, 'I dont want to go'. You do know the Mounties caught two axe murderers this year, along with five roving murderers, a drug ring, and closed twenty + unsolved cases after finding people's skeletons. And Canada has a history of police brutality against the Native population. I am going to close with a story from a guy I actually know who just retired from the local highway patrol. At one point he had driven down to Georgia to pick up a computer monitor for cheap. He said he had just started patrolling, so this must have been the late 80s-early 90s. He was stopped at a checkpoint with a line of people. The Georgia HP started hassling him over the computer monitor in the back of his car, about how he stole it, and so forth. He had to show them his badge to get moved through the checkpoint without them confiscating his monitor. he said he never wanted his fellow officers to be that way to the civilians they served. And Georgia has a history of assest forfeiture just on the suspicion of drug trafficking and you can't get your money/property back without suing. The police are like any other organization and follow the Chris Rock rule. You should either know this, or learn this. CES Lord Liaden 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted February 4, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2021 2 hours ago, Sicarius said: My post is in response to a ongoing rant in favor of criminals over police. Oly cow. Is that the main thing you take away from these discussions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted February 5, 2021 Report Share Posted February 5, 2021 7 hours ago, archer said: Honestly, no one has linked to the news story, that I've seen, and I have no idea what details of the story have been made public or not. I linked the actual body cam footage earlier in the thread, which makes what was going on very clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted February 5, 2021 Report Share Posted February 5, 2021 6 hours ago, Lord Liaden said: EDIT: Dan, if that crossed the line I'll remove this post. I don't think you're the one crossing lines here, LL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted February 5, 2021 Report Share Posted February 5, 2021 Sicarius will no longer be joining this conversation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted February 5, 2021 Report Share Posted February 5, 2021 Bodycam footage I linked earlier, just embedded for everyone's viewing convenience. Lord Liaden, archer and Old Man 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted February 5, 2021 Report Share Posted February 5, 2021 8 minutes ago, Pattern Ghost said: Bodycam footage I linked earlier, just embedded for everyone's viewing convenience. There you go again bringing "facts" and "evidence" into a discussion. How can a man win an internet debate if he can't just gish gallop with misspelled internet talking points? Pattern Ghost and Lawnmower Boy 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted February 5, 2021 Report Share Posted February 5, 2021 6 minutes ago, Old Man said: There you go again bringing "facts" and "evidence" into a discussion. How can a man win an internet debate if he can't just gish gallop with misspelled internet talking points? Sorry, bad habit from analyzing camera footage of use of force incidents all day. While sitting in my armchair, of course. Old Man 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted February 5, 2021 Report Share Posted February 5, 2021 Whether it's police or politicians, the apologists who keep trying to convince us that we didn't see what we saw, didn't hear what we heard... it starts to get really insulting. aylwin13, Cygnia, Lee and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archer Posted February 5, 2021 Report Share Posted February 5, 2021 1 hour ago, Pattern Ghost said: Bodycam footage I linked earlier, just embedded for everyone's viewing convenience. Thank you. If you posted that earlier, I completely missed it. (I'm sure you did, I just don't want to go back and find exactly where it was that I missed it.) This incident seems to be exactly why people have talked about defunding the police and putting that money into counselors who can respond to domestic calls. The officer never tried to engage the girl in a conversation or give her a reason for his directives: "You're telling me your dad has been stabbed. We're going to have to check on him to make sure he's okay anyway. I can't do that until you sit down in the car. If he's hurt we need to get to him right away and you're delaying that. When you sit down, we'll find him and tell him that you need him right now." Or when the girl complained that she didn't want to sit down because she was covered in snow, "Okay, stand still for a moment and I'll brush off the snow first." Those probably wouldn't have worked but it should have been tried. By the time the one female officer tried to actually talk to the girl, she was much too hysterical to calm down quickly. Pattern Ghost 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted February 5, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2021 All of this is an inevitable consequence of a training regimen that emphasizes domination over diplomacy. A history of economic disenfranchisement and financial contributions from the prison-industrial complex are also to blame, but much can be improved simply by requiring mandatory yearS of education. pinecone, aylwin13 and Cygnia 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted February 12, 2021 Report Share Posted February 12, 2021 Are cops using copyrighted music to keep videos of them from being posted? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted February 12, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2021 19 hours ago, Hermit said: Are cops using copyrighted music to keep videos of them from being posted? The battle is never-ending... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wcw43921 Posted March 2, 2021 Report Share Posted March 2, 2021 Killings By Police Declined After BLM Protests Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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