Jump to content

[Police brutality] American injustice, yet again.


Ragitsu
 Share

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Lord Liaden said:

Since we're getting into the mechanical details of the shooting, there's one element involved that I haven't seen raised anywhere but here:

 

 

 

I do not have the time or inclination to watch yet another Beau video no matter how wise or insightful he is.  Can someone post the cliffs notes?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Beau is noting the cop had a strobe going, and is pointing out it was NOT used properly.  And how it was misused may well contribute to the sequence we saw that led to a dead kid.

 

I didn't really note it before, but if you do watch the video, there's clearly a strobe light active.  Here's a story about them:

https://www.policemag.com/340344/how-to-use-a-strobing-flashlight

 

A huge issue that arises for me, noting the strobe, is that I suspect the ability to discern and identify small details clearly looks to be somewhat compromised.  That makes me think the cop wasn't able to effectively read the situation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Indeed. But if the police department issued strobe lights for weapons without training officers in their use, the department may also be culpable in this tragedy. If said officer acquired a cool toy on his own, without learning how to use it, and that contributed to the shooting, then he was negligent regardless of other circumstances. As Beau and Unclevlad point out, instructions on how to use strobes are readily available. A further question of concern is how many of the department's officers carry strobe lights on their weapons without training?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Old Man said:

Is it remotely possible that gunshot residue could have come from another firearm, one that was pointed directly at him from ten feet away when it was fired?

 

I'd say that's a big stretch. Gunshot residue testing involves looking for traces of primer components. The whole point is to determine whether someone fired a gun. We're not talking about gunpowder residue from the blast.

 

 

6 hours ago, Old Man said:

I understand that interpretations vary, even when things are on video, but this is what I saw:

 

Did I say anything that contradicts this? Because I didn't. I gave context.

 

My point is, there is no reason to go off the rails about this case at this stage. Let the investigation play out.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

Since we're getting into the mechanical details of the shooting, there's one element involved that I haven't seen raised anywhere but here:

 

It's certainly something that should come  up in court or during their investigation. I don't like that he implies the officer was just using it because it was a cool gadget rather than neutrally phrasing the question. That's not in any way fair. It's the sort of thing he himself calls out, and shows his bias. The bottom line is that the investigation should determine if the equipment used in the shooting was non-standard, including the light. Then to what degree it contributed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can't find a single un-edited video of this shooting, but this clip shows the sequence of events:

 

https://abc7chicago.com/adam-toledo-chicago-shooting-video-footage-eric-stillman/10518893/

 

Here's the sequence of events:

 

  • Police officer chasing kid down an alley, continually giving verbal orders to "drop it" and "show me your hands."
  • The kid runs and stops at a hole in the fence.
  • Cop continues ongoing order shouting.
  • Kid has gun in right hand, and is standing angled so that side of his body is facing the fence, not the cop.
  • Kid covertly chucks gun behind fence.
  • Kid turns and brings up hand to raise his hand.
  • Cop fires.
  • Time from the hand going from fence to being shot about .8 second.

 

So, did the officer know that Toledo's hand was empty and that he was turning to raise his hand and not turning to fire? That's the important factor. And to Beau's point: The strobe probably did contribute there.


To me, it looks like the cop erred on the side of caution and made the decision to fire as the kid was turning, and I don't see any negligence, unless he was using a non-approved light and that's shown to contribute.

 

This goes back to a simple rule: Don't do stupid things, with stupid people in stupid places.

 

Not that the kid likely had much of a choice. He was forced into his situation and the cop was forced into the situation too.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

The officer used the strobe as the instructions explicitly say one should not. That's fair to say. That's not excusable.

 

I'm getting annoyed with being misinterpreted today, that is NOT what I said at all. I said that Beau implies the reason the cop had the strobe was because it was a "cool toy." I didn't say a thing about saying the strobe was misused being unfair. The unfair thing is making implications about his motives. We don't know why he had a strobe or why he wasn't trained on its use, so why imply that he just got it because it was a cool toy? He deliberately plants the idea multiple times in the video, and it's a transparent slant.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, Pattern Ghost said:

 

This goes back to a simple rule: Don't do stupid things, with stupid people in stupid places.

 

 

Children do stupid things, much like I did when I was that age.  One of the people here is a trained, armed, and armored cop.  One is a child.  As the owner of a thirteen-year-old, I feel like we can do better than expecting stupid children to somehow not be stupid.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, Old Man said:

Children do stupid things, much like I did when I was that age.  One of the people here is a trained, armed, and armored cop.  One is a child.  As the owner of a thirteen-year-old, I feel like we can do better than expecting stupid children to somehow not be stupid.

 

Quit selectively quoting me. Here's the rest of what I said:

 

1 hour ago, Pattern Ghost said:

Not that the kid likely had much of a choice. He was forced into his situation and the cop was forced into the situation too.

 

And I've said that twice.

 

I don't blame the kid for being in the situation, but the fact remains that he was. So we shouldn't act shocked when he dies as a result.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Pattern Ghost said:

 

I'd say that's a big stretch. Gunshot residue testing involves looking for traces of primer components. The whole point is to determine whether someone fired a gun. We're not talking about gunpowder residue from the blast.

 

 

Adam Toledo was with a 21 year old named Ruben Roman.  Roman has been arrested and charged with felony reckless discharge, unlawful weapon use of a weapon and child endangerment.  So it could have been residue from Roman's gun that was found on Adam Toledo, or maybe both of them were shooting.  Perhaps the pattern of the gunshot residue will shed some light on the subject.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Pattern Ghost said:

 

I'm getting annoyed with being misinterpreted today, that is NOT what I said at all.

 

I apologize if you thought I was misrepresenting you. I was making an assertion about a particular element of this incident other than the points you listed, which I believe needs to be taken into account when determining culpability in this case.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Pattern Ghost said:

 

Quit selectively quoting me. Here's the rest of what I said:

 

 

And I've said that twice.

 

I don't blame the kid for being in the situation, but the fact remains that he was. So we shouldn't act shocked when he dies as a result.


Opinions vary, but I think we should absolutely be shocked when a nonthreatening child with “no choice” gets killed by a cop. And I am interested in systemic changes to prevent incidents like this from happening again.  I can’t settle for “well, that’s the situation”.  
 

Can somebody remind me again what heinous crime Toledo was suspected of that kicked off the pursuit in the first place?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, Old Man said:

Can somebody remind me again what heinous crime Toledo was suspected of that kicked off the pursuit in the first place?

https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/read-the-police-reports-of-adam-toledo-shooting-released-alongside-video/2488475/

 

indicates that the police were responding to a report of shots fired.  So, we have a police officer responding to reports of shooting who chases a fleeing suspect with a gun, and fires a shot when that suspect turns to face him from a position where the hand apparently holding the firearm seconds earlier was shielded from the officer's view.

 

At least that is how I read the news article, and it does not seem inconsistent with the commentary posted here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Ranxerox said:

So it could have been residue from Roman's gun that was found on Adam Toledo, or maybe both of them were shooting.  Perhaps the pattern of the gunshot residue will shed some light on the subject.

 

My initial thought was that the 13 year old was given the gun to ditch. News report on the radio said the residue identified Toledo as the shooter. I think the distribution of residue might indicate if the person fired the gun vs. picked it up, otherwise such a statement would be irresponsible. Then again, it's not like our media are paragons of responsibility.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

I apologize if you thought I was misrepresenting you. I was making an assertion about a particular element of this incident other than the points you listed, which I believe needs to be taken into account when determining culpability in this case.

 

 

Since you said you thought it was "fair to say" (emphasis added), I assumed you were talking about my criticism of Beau's presentation.

 

As for "other than the points you listed," I mentioned it twice in the post above yours:

 

11 hours ago, Pattern Ghost said:

And to Beau's point: The strobe probably did contribute there.

 

11 hours ago, Pattern Ghost said:

unless he was using a non-approved light and that's shown to contribute.

 

Anyway, apology accepted. I am still cranky from being cracked open like a lobster and the format often leads discussions to more nitpicking than you'd see in a normal face to face exchange. Plus, you're a good guy and I like you. No harm, no foul.

 

I think we can all agree that it's a tragedy that a 13 year old got shot by the police, and that it's a very serious matter that needs to be examined closely.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, Old Man said:

Opinions vary, but I think we should absolutely be shocked when a nonthreatening child with “no choice” gets killed by a cop. And I am interested in systemic changes to prevent incidents like this from happening again.  I can’t settle for “well, that’s the situation”.  

 

Yes, but which systems? That's the question.

 

And by not being shocked, I mean we shouldn't be having knee jerk reactions and accusing a cop of a racially motivated murder, which seems to be how the wind is blowing in this case.

 

43 minutes ago, Old Man said:

Can somebody remind me again what heinous crime Toledo was suspected of that kicked off the pursuit in the first place?

 

Many large cities have "shot spotting" systems that listen for the sounds of gunfire then notify authorities. Here's one:

 

https://www.shotspotter.com/

 

  • There were 8 shots detected in the area and police were dispatched.
  • Almost every news story I've seen on the incident states that there were shots fired at a car.
  • Toledo and the 21 year old suspect were found in the area.
  • Toledo fled with a gun clearly visible in his right hand.
  • Toledo continued to flee down an alley with gun in hand, ignoring continued orders from the police officer to drop the gun.
  • Toledo finally stopped and tossed the gun away covertly, trying to get rid of the evidence, and not trying to display compliance to the cop.
  • Toledo then turned to face the officer and started to raise his hands while doing so.
  • Toledo was then shot by the officer.
  • If you look at the video I posted from the Chicago news station, you'll be able to make your own judgment on the timing.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Old Man said:

 

Can somebody remind me again what heinous crime Toledo was suspected of that kicked off the pursuit in the first place?

 

Shots were fired, probably by the older kid who could be tried as an adult but that's a guess. It could well have been the younger kid wo fired the gun.

 

Police respond.

 

Younger kid takes off while holding the gun, doesn't comply with the cops' initial commands to stop.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/16/us/adam-toledo-chicago-police-shooting.html

 

In the early-morning hours of March 29, two officers had been responding to reports of gunfire when they saw two people in an alley and started to chase them, officials said. Prosecutors have said that Adam was holding a gun when he ran down the alley as an officer called for him to stop and drop the weapon.

 

In the moment before the shooting, Adam can be seen holding what appears to be a gun behind his back, which he drops behind a wooden fence just before he raises his hands, according to an analysis of the police videos by The New York Times.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...