[Police brutality] American injustice, yet again.

[Twilight]

Somebody on Facebook posted, without a hint of irony: "Nobody killed Garner but Garner."

 

 

Claiming the guy that choked him out is not at fault is bad enough, but blaming the victim?! That might just be the most vile thing all month (and by month I mean last month, since December is only just started.)

[Ranxerox]

True, but if the cop was doing something that doesn't normally kill people, and only did kill because of something the cop couldn't have known about, that is relevant. At the very least it changes the crime he would be charged with. And if he was using banned techniques (I'm told this may be the case), he should be punished for those, and tack on involuntary manslaughter, but again only if the officer was violating his departments policy.

 

What I'm saying is, discussing the man's special medical case is relevant. And I'm not sure if there's a good answer to it. It's not like we want cops to know our medical history when we're walking around. That'd be creepy.

 

The law is that if you do something to someone that would normally not cause harm but because the person had a medical condition that you were not aware of did cause harm, that is an accident and you aren't legally liable for the harm caused.  However, if you do something that would normally even slight harm and because the person having a medical that you were unaware of great harm resulted, you are responsible for all the harm done and not just the harm that you expected to do.

 

So, if you shove somebody, and though they have no outward sign of frailty they actually have brittle bone disease, and as a result of your simple shove they fall down a break their hip then you are legally responsible for that broken hip.  Furthermore, if due to medical complications while treating their broken hip, the person subsequently dies, then you are guilty of homicide.  That is the law.

 

Since the police officer in the Eric Garner case was using a maneuver not permitted by the rules and regulations of the NYPD, it is reasonable to say that his actions lacked the legal shield of police authority.  Without that legal authority, the officer would be guilty of manslaughter at the very least and possibly 2nd degree murder.

 

However, where Eric Garner's family is concerned, it may be better that the NYPD is standing by the officers involved.  That will make the wrongful death suit against the city that much easier to win.  A truckload of money won't bring Mr Garner back, but it will give a strong message to the NYPD and other police department across the country.  Money focuses the attention of politicians more surely than sending some beat cop to jail ever could.  

[Hermit]

Agreed. Nothing can replace a loved one, but maybe if the NYPD gets sued enough the powers that be over it will finally respond. At this point, I have little doubt said powers pay more attention to money lost than lives taken.

[Marcus Impudite]

Agreed. Nothing can replace a loved one, but maybe if the NYPD gets sued enough the powers that be over it will finally respond. At this point, I have little doubt said powers pay more attention to money lost than lives taken.

Unfortunately, suing the department only means the taxpayers get stuck with the bill, always assuming you can even make a case that will stick. The "higher ups" you speak of go to great lengths to insulate themselves from the consequences of their own misdeeds and those of their detestable little minions.They will only consider amending their ways if they lose their protection; if things start getting more and more...dangerous for them.

[Twilight]

Unfortunately, suing the department only means the taxpayers get stuck with the bill, always assuming you can even make a case that will stick. The "higher ups" you speak of go to great lengths to insulate themselves from the consequences of their own misdeeds and those of their detestable little minions.They will only consider amending their ways if they lose their protection; if things start getting more and more...dangerous for them.

I'm not normally a vindictive person, I've played a few in RPGS but I'd like to think I'm better then that myself, right now I'd like to see each and every one of those higher ups, their detestable minions and the human detrious that support their behavior locked up someplace unpleasent.  It's gonna take awhile for this irritation to pass.

[Ragitsu]

Somebody on Facebook posted, without a hint of irony: "Nobody killed Garner but Garner."

 

 

Claiming the guy that choked him out is not at fault is bad enough, but blaming the victim?! That might just be the most vile thing all month (and by month I mean last month, since December is only just started.)

 

It's getting so bad, I think the only way to shake these folks out of their complacency is to show a cop roll up and immediately shoot someone that's unarmed in the head, totally unprovoked.

 

Then again, if they truly believe that they, their family, and their friends, are immune to police brutality/harassment/mistakes, then nothing is ever going to make them take a halfway (much less fully) critical view on questionable police activities.

[Twilight]

It's getting so bad, I think the only way to shake these folks out of their complacency is to show a cop roll up and immediately shoot someone that's unarmed in the head, totally unprovoked.

 

Then again, if they truly believe that they, their family, and their friends, are immune to police brutality/harassment/mistakes, then nothing is ever going to make them take a halfway (much less fully) critical view on questionable police activities.

Wasn't there a case where a cop did just that? Involved a kid waving around a toy gun?

 

At any rate it does warm my heart to see everybody protesting what happened to Eric Garner and to know that, so far, they've been behaving themselves.  Then I hear things like Rabbis getting arrested for giving a mourning prayer to Eric Garner and I'm back to annoyed again.

[Pattern Ghost]

Wasn't there a case where a cop did just that? Involved a kid waving around a toy gun?

 

The Tamir Rice shooting referenced above in post 48.

 

I only know two things about that one: First, that the officer who did the shooting had been fired from a prior department over issues.

 

Second, and to address the "toy gun" comment: The kid had an Airsoft gun, and it had had the red muzzle attachment that identifies it clearly as a toy removed. Airsoft guns are very realistic-looking. Most are modeled very closely after actual real world weapons, and look nothing like toys. It's a requirement that they be imported with the red muzzle extension on them so that things like this don't happen.

 

As an aside, even back when I was that kid's age, and younger, we were hearing stories of kids pointing toy guns -- much less realistic ones -- at cops and getting shot for it.

 

As another aside -- and I am in no way suggesting this was the case here -- criminals have been known to take off that red thing on the muzzle and use Airsoft guns to rob people. They are that detailed.

 

Here's the toy gun in question:

 

[Pattern Ghost]

OK, I just watched the Rice video. Here's what I'm seeing:

 

1. Kid is playing with the above gun, waving it around a bit. There's a break in the video that says that went on for about ten minutes, then he sits down at a picnic table under a gazebo.

2. The police pull up in a cruiser, right up against the gazebo, on the grass. They pretty much screech to a halt.

3. The kid gets up from the bench and approaches the police car.

4. He reaches for his waist band.

5. The officer on the passenger side (nearest Rice) jumps out, draws, and fires.

6. The other officer jumps out. They launch into a Keystone Cops routine, where the shooter takes cover behind the rear corner of the car, and the driver hops around in a circle, pointing his gun at the prone child.

 

Honestly, I can't fault whoever called 911. You've got a kid waving around a gun. Of course people are going to freak out.

 

The police shot a kid, who was reported to be waving a gun around, when he reached for the gun in his waistband. This is tragic, and very sad, but . . . that looks like a legitimate use of force on the surface.

 

The final thing is . . . these two morons were clearly incompetent. Their entire approach to the situation was irresponsible and resulted in a death.

 

It seems unlikely criminal charges will hold up, but I sure hope they get reamed in civil court, both personally and the city for hiring the idiots and not training them.

[bigbywolfe]

The officer who shot was in training (I hadn't heard that he was fired from a previous law enforcement agency, that may change my perception a bit) and the officer driving was his training officer. His training officer deserves to be fired for putting a rookie in that situation. He pulls up WAY too close to the suspect,so close that if the kid had a real gun he could have drawn it and and shot through the car window before he was able to get out.

EDIT: the rookie was right to take cover,even after having taken the shot, that's actually following his training. If his FTO had pulled in appropriately he probably would have had time to take cover first and the kid may not have gotten shot. From a procedural standpoint the driver is more at fault than the shooter and as the ranking officer handled the aftermath pathetically.

[Ragitsu]

OK, I just watched the Rice video. Here's what I'm seeing:

 

1. Kid is playing with the above gun, waving it around a bit. There's a break in the video that says that went on for about ten minutes, then he sits down at a picnic table under a gazebo.

2. The police pull up in a cruiser, right up against the gazebo, on the grass. They pretty much screech to a halt.

3. The kid gets up from the bench and approaches the police car.

4. He reaches for his waist band.

5. The officer on the passenger side (nearest Rice) jumps out, draws, and fires.

6. The other officer jumps out. They launch into a Keystone Cops routine, where the shooter takes cover behind the rear corner of the car, and the driver hops around in a circle, pointing his gun at the prone child.

 

Honestly, I can't fault whoever called 911. You've got a kid waving around a gun. Of course people are going to freak out.

 

The police shot a kid, who was reported to be waving a gun around, when he reached for the gun in his waistband. This is tragic, and very sad, but . . . that looks like a legitimate use of force on the surface.

 

The final thing is . . . these two morons were clearly incompetent. Their entire approach to the situation was irresponsible and resulted in a death.

 

It seems unlikely criminal charges will hold up, but I sure hope they get reamed in civil court, both personally and the city for hiring the idiots and not training them.

 

Do police not have loudspeakers? Are they not required to say "Freeze!" or "Hands up!" anymore?

 

Their approach was slightly unprofessional at best, and woefully incompetent at worst.

[Ragitsu]

 

I was reminded of this.

[薔薇語]

The two cops in the Rice case should be in tons of trouble. The person who called 911 stated that they were worried because they didn't know if it was a fake gun or a real one and was clear in telling the 911 attendent that it could have been fake. The officers then took that information and decided to go in guns blazing and low and behold a little kid gets murdered. 

 

You do not go up 'drive by' style on someone who has a gun. If they do have a gun, it could spook them and cause them to accidently discharge. They could see you as a threat and fire at you. And by pushing the situation you increase the chances that anyone near by could get caught in the line of fire. It was a completely reckless thing to do.

They should have pulled up at a distance. Slowly walked up to the situation and confirmed if it was a real gun or not long before drawing their own. Had they, there would be one more young child in this world. 

These cops did everything they possibly could have to cause this to end the way it did. They are murderers with no regard for anyone's life outside of their own pathetic ones. 

La Rose. 

[薔薇語]

Here are a few more police that need to be fired:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghmjems40PM#t=119&channel=ksbwtv

 

Seriously? Punish the guy who calmed down the kid because the other cops wanted to get their rocks off and taze some poor suicidal kid. 

How is it that we seemed to have managed to hire only the worst possible people to be officers in our nation? 

 

La Rose. 

[bigbywolfe]

Saying they should have determined if the gun was real or not before drawing their own is just naive. It takes less than a second to raise and fire a gun. We don't live in a wild west movie where cops are supposed to survive via their quick draw skills to "out draw" the bad guys. If someone is reported to be armed you aim your weapon at them and then determine if they are really armed.

We agree about how close they pulled up, but I blame the officer driving, who was a training officer no less, not the rookie who responded to the position his superior put him

[Twilight]

Apparently folks on other continents are outraged about what happened to Eric Garner as well, good for them.  Now if only we could do something about the idiots who still think Eric Garner had it coming.  Or the idiots who wonder how Eric Garner might have been brought in safely, as if it would be difficult for five police officers to apprehend an asthmatic who, by the reports of his friends, was in poor shape.

[Twilight]

Something just ocurred to me.  Is there any evidence that Eric Garner was doing anything wrong, or resisting arrest, from a source other then the officer who killed him? I'm not trying to suggest that all police officers are inherently untrustworthy, however taking the word of the man who killed Eric Garner regarding the events leading up to the death of Eric Garner seems a bad idea. 

[gewing]

The two cops in the Rice case should be in tons of trouble. The person who called 911 stated that they were worried because they didn't know if it was a fake gun or a real one and was clear in telling the 911 attendent that it could have been fake. The officers then took that information and decided to go in guns blazing and low and behold a little kid gets murdered. 

 

You do not go up 'drive by' style on someone who has a gun. If they do have a gun, it could spook them and cause them to accidently discharge. They could see you as a threat and fire at you. And by pushing the situation you increase the chances that anyone near by could get caught in the line of fire. It was a completely reckless thing to do.

They should have pulled up at a distance. Slowly walked up to the situation and confirmed if it was a real gun or not long before drawing their own. Had they, there would be one more young child in this world. 

These cops did everything they possibly could have to cause this to end the way it did. They are murderers with no regard for anyone's life outside of their own pathetic ones. 

La Rose.

 

From what I have read, the officers were never told it might be a toy. Combination of stupid errors on both sides,and it does appear that Cleveland has a problem with scraping the bottom of the barrel...

[gewing]

Here are a few more police that need to be fired:

 

 

Seriously? Punish the guy who calmed down the kid because the other cops wanted to get their rocks off and taze some poor suicidal kid. 

How is it that we seemed to have managed to hire only the worst possible people to be officers in our nation? 

 

La Rose.

 

I would guess there are many reasons,but a few of my opinions ( I may be completely wrong and talking out of my hat. I am not a cop, and have never really wanted to be. I know a few officers, and have generally found them good people. On the other hand, my local PD does NOT have a good reputation overall for examp!e look up Otto Zehm.) About them are:

 

Demonization of the police in many communities. They are considered the enemy, so of course GOOD candidates would not apply...

 

The corporate mentality seems to attract a lot of adrenaline junkies and jocks. In my experience a sizable portion of both groups tend to be bullies.

 

Due to finances departments have been cut to numbers such that the officers almost always patrol alone. The o!d days of two man cars are long past, and IMO this create as a situation where each officer feels it is him against the world. If the call for backup, I suspect at least some of the responding officers feel the situation is already out of control or nearly there. The fact that the officer is usually alone means he does not have another there who can pull him back and whose opinion he wants to keep positive.

 

Officers usually deal with people lying to them verbally or even physically attacking them... What is this likely to due to their attitudes?

 

Even outside of their work, they are often disrespected. Whether it is white collar workers acting like the officers were too stupid to do anything else, or other people treating them like thugs or crooks or buffoons...

 

Just some quick thoughts.

 

In general I tend to support police, but too many regional ones are facing civil rights prosecutions...

[Twilight]

I tend to support the police, when they do their job right.  When they act like the cop did in the Eric Garner situation, that's when I want the book thrown at them.

[薔薇語]

From what I have read, the officers were never told it might be a toy. Combination of stupid errors on both sides,and it does appear that Cleveland has a problem with scraping the bottom of the barrel...

 

And given how corrupt police are and how quickly they turn to lying to save their own asses, I am not inclined to believe them. I think they were told and they disregarded it. Even if they weren't told it was a fake one, they were told it was a kid. BOTH are great reasons to show some F'ing common sense and approach the situation cautiously. Fire both of them. Bring both of them up on charges. 

 

Saying they should have determined if the gun was real or not before drawing their own is just naive. It takes less than a second to raise and fire a gun. We don't live in a wild west movie where cops are supposed to survive via their quick draw skills to "out draw" the bad guys. If someone is reported to be armed you aim your weapon at them and then determine if they are really armed.

We agree about how close they pulled up, but I blame the officer driving, who was a training officer no less, not the rookie who responded to the position his superior put him

 

They don't have to be doing quick draws with someone to end a situation. But this "Shoot First. Blame the Victim Later. Cover for Everyone" BS must stop. They are not paying the police to go in guns blazing. They need to learn some F*ing restraint. 

 

Something just ocurred to me.  Is there any evidence that Eric Garner was doing anything wrong, or resisting arrest, from a source other then the officer who killed him? I'm not trying to suggest that all police officers are inherently untrustworthy, however taking the word of the man who killed Eric Garner regarding the events leading up to the death of Eric Garner seems a bad idea. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OxM9pWGsaQ&channel=Swordforces

 

 

La Rose. 

[Ragitsu]

I would guess there are many reasons,but a few of my opinions ( I may be completely wrong and talking out of my hat. I am not a cop, and have never really wanted to be. I know a few officers, and have generally found them good people. On the other hand, my local PD does NOT have a good reputation overall for examp!e look up Otto Zehm.) About them are:

 

Demonization of the police in many communities. They are considered the enemy, so of course GOOD candidates would not apply...

 

The corporate mentality seems to attract a lot of adrenaline junkies and jocks. In my experience a sizable portion of both groups tend to be bullies.

 

Due to finances departments have been cut to numbers such that the officers almost always patrol alone. The o!d days of two man cars are long past, and IMO this create as a situation where each officer feels it is him against the world. If the call for backup, I suspect at least some of the responding officers feel the situation is already out of control or nearly there. The fact that the officer is usually alone means he does not have another there who can pull him back and whose opinion he wants to keep positive.

 

Officers usually deal with people lying to them verbally or even physically attacking them... What is this likely to due to their attitudes?

 

Even outside of their work, they are often disrespected. Whether it is white collar workers acting like the officers were too stupid to do anything else, or other people treating them like thugs or crooks or buffoons...

 

Just some quick thoughts.

 

In general I tend to support police, but too many regional ones are facing civil rights prosecutions...

 

gewing, nothing in society happens in a vacuum. The people with actual character and integrity that were dissuaded from joining their local PD can thank the boys in blu...er, black, which were the predecessors laying the foundation for the ever-growing negative image of cops we now have. Believe me, I recognize that some of the reasons the police prefer to pick on the poor and minorities aren't entirely of their own creation. All the same, they aren't doing much on their end to push back such regressive policies.

 

It's telling that internal reformation has an astonishingly low success rate.

 

 

 

I tend to support the police, when they do their job right.  When they act like the cop did in the Eric Garner situation, that's when I want the book thrown at them.

 

What's funny is that should be the default state of mind for most reasonable citizens. Too bad we're inundated with knowledge .

[gewing]

gewing, nothing in society happens in a vacuum. The people with actual character and integrity that were dissuaded from joining their local PD can thank the boys in blu...er, black, which were the predecessors laying the foundation for the ever-growing negative image of cops we now have. Believe me, I recognize that some of the reasons the police prefer to pick on the poor and minorities aren't entirely of their own creation. All the same, they aren't doing much on their end to push back such regressive policies.

 

It's telling that internal reformation has an astonishingly low success rate.

 

 

 

 

 

What's funny is that should be the default state of mind for most reasonable citizens. Too bad we're inundated with knowledge .

 

A new chief tried to reform the local PD.iirc, she was driven out in short order by the department and the guild.

[Hermit]

A new chief tried to reform the local PD.iirc, she was driven out in short order by the department and the guild.

Sounds very similar to the good ole boy networks  that plague much of the South. 

[Roter Baron]

My two €-cents:

1) There seems to be a lack of training on the part of US police officers. If you compare the number of people killed by police in the USA and Germany in the year 2013 you will find that US police killed about 320 people (Wikipedia), German police 19. Another number I found is 1,450.

Even if you break it down in relation to the different population size (350 Mio to 80 Mio) that is 3.7 times as many (or even 17 times!) killed by police.

I am not saying that all and every killing was unjustified, but the difference is astounding. Either Americans are much more violent than Germans and can only be stopped by deadly force, or US police is more trigger-happy.

2) The influx of military equipment and weapons seems to foster a more militaristic mind-set with cops.

3) That, coupled with ongoing military campaigns for the last 14 years plus the ongoing siege mentality in the US ("Terrorists are out to get us!") plus an ongoing class-warfare that keeps a lot of middle and working class Americans in a state of debt while lowering their incomes seem to make society more on edge. "More on edge" means that people (ordinary citizens, the underclass, the cops, politicians) may get the message: "They are out to get YOU! Don't give them a chance.

 

So, if you get ill-trained, gung-ho, financially insecure police officers in a society ripe with frustration in the street and they meet financially insecure, frustrated and potentially or seemingly violent people it is only a question of time and place when desasters will happen.

 

And I didn't even speak about the American obsession and proliferation of guns which makes it more likely for police to be shot at.

 

And I stayed clear of accusations of racism - mainly because I think it is more classism than racism: To my knowledge the people killed where more on the poorer side than on the well-to-do side of society (one a student, one a kid, one a family father trying to make a living by selling single cigarettes ina park). There is a strong correlation of being black and being poor in America (like in Germany with having Turkish roots and being a school-drop-out and poor).

 

That being said, I am assessing this from 8,000 miles afar - as a German.